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Other Discussion: Has Capetian Y-chromosome DNA Been IdentifiedGroup: soc.genealogy.medieval
Discussion: Has Capetian Y-chromosome DNA Been Identified
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Douglas Richardson
Feb 01, 2011 - 01:29:33 pm EST
On Feb 1, 5:19=A0am, "Peter Stewart" wrote:

> And if they had the same Y-DNA as Jack Sprat then a case could be made th=
> they wouldn't eat fat. There's no more reason to look for scientific
> evidence in support of this than for any of the numberless false claims
> about founders' and patrons' kin in countless similar monastic screeds of
> the 14th and 15th centuries.
> Peter Stewart

I don't think you understand DNA evidence at all. I suggest you read
up on the subject.

As for Jack Sprat, now that's another matter. His parentage has
always been a little murky.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Douglas Richardson
Feb 01, 2011 - 01:51:12 pm EST
Dear Newsgroup ~

I have a few more names to add to the list of the 17th Century New
World immigrants that descend from Renaud (or Reginald) de Courtenay
(died 1194), of England:

Dannett Abney, Elizabeth Alsop, Barbara Aubrey, Charles Barnes,
Richard & William Bernard, John Bevan, George, Giles & Robert Brent,
Thomas Bressey, Nathaniel Browne, Edward Carleton, St. Leger Codd,
James Cudworth, Edward Digges, Robert Drake, Thomas Dudley, Edward
Foliot, Elizabeth & John Harleston, Edmund Hawes, Warham Horsmanden,
Hannah, Samuel & Sarah Levis, Thomas Ligon, Nathaniel Littleton,
Thomas Lloyd, Henry, Jane & Nicholas Lowe, Thomas Lunsford, Agnes
Mackworth, Anne Mauleverer, Richard More, Philip & Thomas Nelson,
Robert Peyton, George Reade, Thomas Rudyard, Katherine Saint Leger,
Richard Saltonstall, Olive Welby, Amy Wyllys.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

Feb 01, 2011 - 02:11:42 pm EST
On Feb 1, 10:29=A0am, Douglas Richardson wrote:

> I don't think you understand DNA evidence at all. =A0 I suggest you read
> up on the subject.

Wouldn't hurt you either. You can start with the paper "Genetic
analysis of the presumptive blood from Louis XVI, king of France" by
Lalueza-Fox, et al., FSI Genetics, in press. Unfortunately, as the
journal in question takes 6 months to a y**r to publish papers after
they are accepted, you may have to subscribe to see the pre-
publication version, or wait a few more months before dismissing it
out of hand AFTER reading it.


Feb 01, 2011 - 02:11:58 pm EST
On Feb 1, 9:22=A0am, Douglas Richardson wrote:
> On Feb 1, 2:50=A0am, taf wrote:
> > > Blah, blah, and more blah.
> > Oh, that's the level of your scholarship.
> Drop the personal attacks and get back to the evidence please.

Now you want to focus on the evidence? Is that what you were doing
when you submitted a post entitled "Blah, blah, and more blah", in
which you make the insightful contribution to the evidentiary analysis
as follows: "Blah, blah, and more blah". Unfortunately you left out
the footnote, indicating the source from which you derived that
particular nugget of finely honed perspective. What, pray tell, might
that evidence have been?

This was in response to you dismissing as a "supposed 'scholarly'
article" a paper you HAVE NOT READ, simply because you don't like the
fact that it disagrees with a DNA test that is of relevance only
through an unsupported descent from a medieval family that itself left
a non-contemporary tradition of an impossible descent that you then
try to 'rescue' by ignoring all of the inconvenient parts and
inventing new entirely undocumented connections. Obviously then, in
light of this pristine historical record, all of the ACTUAL evidence
in that yet-to-be-published paper can be dismissed out of hand,
WITHOUT EVER SEEING IT (when you didn't even know enough to realize
you were looking at the abstract of the paper) with the words 'blah,
blah, blah'. That is the kind of focus on the evidence we are sadly
lacking in this group, is it?

Oh, wait. I keep forgetting. These hypocritical requests of yours only
apply to others, not yourself.

If you want to focus on evidence, go for it. Explain how the Forde
pedigree is to be believed as unimpeachable gospel when reporting that
Rainald was son of Floris, and yet completely out to sea when it
reports that Floris was son of Louis VI.


Peter Stewart
Feb 01, 2011 - 04:35:42 pm EST
"Douglas Richardson" wrote in message
news:69c75e91-f104-421e-8834-e2e2ff104277 [No Spam]
> On Feb 1, 5:19 am, "Peter Stewart" wrote:

> > "Douglas Richardson" wrote in message
> > > Insofar as Fleury of France being the father of Renaud de Courtenay
> > > in England, I certainly have an open mind regarding that possibility.
> >
> > You mind is clearly "open" to the elements on this question.
> > Peter Stewart
> What I have proposed is a solution that satisfies all of the evidence
> we have regarding Renaud (or Reginald) de Courtenay in England.
> It explains his use of the Courtenay name, the use of the Courtenay
> arms by his descendants, the kinship between his grandson and King
> Henry III, and his failure to inherit any of the Courtenay lands in
> France. It also agrees with the Ford Abbey pedigree. And the
> chronology is fine.
> So all six points are addressed.

Not that my point needed any further proof, but thank you for providing this
so that it can be cited and weblinked.

The pedigree printed in Monasticon asserts that Renaud was son of Florus son
of Louis le Gros. That would make him son of Louis VII Florus, the first
husband of Alienor of Aquitaine. I don't see where you have "addressed" this
point. Arbitrarily transferring the paternity to a namesake uncle of Louis
VII and brother of Louis le Gros neither addresses the point or agrees with
the source.

And - as pointed out twice so far - the inheritance of Nangis by Isabelle
from her mother, the wife of Louis VI's brother Florus. This seventh point
directly contradicts your arbitrary speculation, and you have not addressed

Peter Stewart

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