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y_p_w...
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 2:51 pm
 
On Nov 7, 4:32pm, "Edward Dolan" <edo... at (no spam) iw.net> wrote:
Quote:
"y_p_w" <y_... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails whereas
mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.
Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste land
that has already been ruined.

Those activities are also done by hikers building "social trails".
However - I haven't heard of any such activity by the people accosted
by Vandeman. There would be no need to do so on this fire road. It's
maintained as a fire break by the University and they've taken a
lazzez faire attitude regarding the public's use of the trail.

Again - those cyclists in this case hadn't done anything illegal.
They might have been in violation of an unenforced UC policy, but they
hasn't done anything that they could be arrested for. Now Vandeman on
the other hand has been witnessed as carrying the tools to perform a
clearly illegal activity (violation of California Penal Code 384a).
 
Edward Dolan...
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:32 pm
 
"y_p_w" <y_p_w at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef6dec77-431b-41cd-8a6d-baa0b47be736 at (no spam) m20g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 7, 12:16 am, "Edward Dolan" <edo... at (no spam) iw.net> wrote:
Quote:
"y_p_w" <y_... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
Obviously you do not know much of anything about how a public university
acts in conjunction with the local police forces. Most large public
universities even have their own police force and they make arrests of
their
own all the time.

UCPD actually took the police report on Vandeman. I'm quite familiar
with them, having been a student there and witnessing their crowd
control duties at various campus events.

They certainly have the authority to make arrests - both on campus and
the area of Berkeley surrounding the campus. They also patrol area
such as the Richmond Field Station and UC Village in Albany.
Occasionally they'll get supplemented by UCPD from UCSF; there was
also a proposal to merge the departments that didn't work out.

I have heard of UCPD giving campus citations to students for breaking
campus rules. The punishment was via the University (such as holding
back registration) but wouldn't apply to members of the general public
on UC property. What they can do is arrest people for things that are
clearly within typical police powers to do so, such as shoplifting,
assault, trespassing, etc. I've also seen them pull over people for
traffic violations on Berkeley city streets.

Any sign they have about bicycles on their fire trail doesn't carry
the force of law. If that rule is broken, their only recourse is to
revoke someone's right to pass, and then arrest for trespassing if
they don't comply. I've never heard of the University really caring
one way or the other about bicycles on that particular fire road.

I would note that if Mr Vandeman did in fact have that saw in hand to
attempt unauthorized trail maintenance, he could be in violation of
California Penal code 384a:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/10/s384a

"Every person who within the State of California willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon state
or county highway rights-of-way, or who removes leaf mold thereon,
except that the provisions of this section shall not be construed to
apply to any employee of the state or of any political subdivision
thereof engaged in work upon any state, county, or public road or
highway while performing work under the supervision of the state or of
any political subdivision thereof, and every person who willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portions of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon
public land or upon land not his or her own, or leaf mold on the
surface of public land, or upon land not his or her own, without a
written permit from the owner of the land signed by the owner or the
owner's authorized agent, and every person who knowingly sells,
offers, or exposes for sale, or transports for sale, any tree or
shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or
redwood greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or
bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, or leaf
mold, so cut or removed from state or county highway rights-of-way, or
removed from public land or from land not owned by the person who cut
or removed the same without the written permit from the owner of the
land, signed by the owner or the owner's authorized agent, is guilty
of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a
fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), by imprisonment
in a county jail for not more than six months, or by both fine and
imprisonment."

Quote:
My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails whereas
mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.

Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste land
that has already been ruined.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka

Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
 
Tom Sherman ...
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 7:51 pm
 
On 11/7/2010 6:32 PM, Edward Dolan wrote:
Quote:
"y_p_w"<y_p_w at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ef6dec77-431b-41cd-8a6d-baa0b47be736 at (no spam) m20g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 7, 12:16 am, "Edward Dolan"<edo... at (no spam) iw.net> wrote:
"y_p_w"<y_... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
Obviously you do not know much of anything about how a public university
acts in conjunction with the local police forces. Most large public
universities even have their own police force and they make arrests of
their
own all the time.

UCPD actually took the police report on Vandeman. I'm quite familiar
with them, having been a student there and witnessing their crowd
control duties at various campus events.

They certainly have the authority to make arrests - both on campus and
the area of Berkeley surrounding the campus. They also patrol area
such as the Richmond Field Station and UC Village in Albany.
Occasionally they'll get supplemented by UCPD from UCSF; there was
also a proposal to merge the departments that didn't work out.

I have heard of UCPD giving campus citations to students for breaking
campus rules. The punishment was via the University (such as holding
back registration) but wouldn't apply to members of the general public
on UC property. What they can do is arrest people for things that are
clearly within typical police powers to do so, such as shoplifting,
assault, trespassing, etc. I've also seen them pull over people for
traffic violations on Berkeley city streets.

Any sign they have about bicycles on their fire trail doesn't carry
the force of law. If that rule is broken, their only recourse is to
revoke someone's right to pass, and then arrest for trespassing if
they don't comply. I've never heard of the University really caring
one way or the other about bicycles on that particular fire road.

I would note that if Mr Vandeman did in fact have that saw in hand to
attempt unauthorized trail maintenance, he could be in violation of
California Penal code 384a:

http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/cacode/PEN/3/1/10/s384a

"Every person who within the State of California willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon state
or county highway rights-of-way, or who removes leaf mold thereon,
except that the provisions of this section shall not be construed to
apply to any employee of the state or of any political subdivision
thereof engaged in work upon any state, county, or public road or
highway while performing work under the supervision of the state or of
any political subdivision thereof, and every person who willfully or
negligently cuts, destroys, mutilates, or removes any tree or shrub,
or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood
greens, or portions of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or
cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, growing upon
public land or upon land not his or her own, or leaf mold on the
surface of public land, or upon land not his or her own, without a
written permit from the owner of the land signed by the owner or the
owner's authorized agent, and every person who knowingly sells,
offers, or exposes for sale, or transports for sale, any tree or
shrub, or fern or herb or bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or
redwood greens, or portion of any tree or shrub, or fern or herb or
bulb or cactus or flower, or huckleberry or redwood greens, or leaf
mold, so cut or removed from state or county highway rights-of-way, or
removed from public land or from land not owned by the person who cut
or removed the same without the written permit from the owner of the
land, signed by the owner or the owner's authorized agent, is guilty
of a misdemeanor and upon conviction thereof shall be punished by a
fine of not more than one thousand dollars ($1,000), by imprisonment
in a county jail for not more than six months, or by both fine and
imprisonment."

My God, the above activities are what mountain bikers do all the time.
They even construct their own trails on public lands. Eventually such
illegal trails are discovered and are removed at public expense. In the
grand scheme of things, hikers do little if any damage to trails whereas
mountain bikers do major damage. Try to get your priorities in order.

Mr. Vandeman and I are lovers of nature and wilderness. Mountain bikers
do not give a damn about either. All they care about is their god damn
rotten sport. A proper place for it would be urban industrial waste land
that has already been ruined.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Hey Ed,

Your quoting hierarchy is all fouled up again.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
 
Edward Dolan...
Posted: Sun Nov 07, 2010 10:30 pm
 
"Tom Sherman _" <twshermanREMOVE at (no spam) THISsouthslope.net> wrote in message
news:ib7hji$lq2$2 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
[...]
Quote:
Hey Ed,

Your quoting hierarchy is all fouled up again.

The sequence is right provided you read from top to bottom and that is all
that matters. I cannot be responsible for those who post from Google Groups.
Frankly, I am surprised that all ISPs do not provide a newsreader like
Knology (formerly Prairie Wave) does for me.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
 
y_p_w...
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 7:07 am
 
On Nov 8, 7:00am, SMS <scharf.ste... at (no spam) geemail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On 11/7/2010 9:23 PM, y_p_w wrote:

Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?

He already admitted "contacting" the cyclists with the saw. Obviously
he's not going to claim that he did what he did because he was enforcing
the "no bicycles" rule. Probably he'll claim that he was standing still
with the saw and the cyclists came toward him.

Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, with dropping of the
felony charge and probation plus a fine for the misdemeanors.

It'll be an interesting trial. I wonder how long it'll take to find a jury.

I don't live in Alameda County, although I have received a couple of
jury summons. If I happened to be in that jury box, I'm sure that I
could bring up my previous encounters with MV's internet activity and
get excused.

I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial. I do get the
feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.
 
SMS...
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 10:00 am
 
On 11/7/2010 9:23 PM, y_p_w wrote:

Quote:
Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?

He already admitted "contacting" the cyclists with the saw. Obviously
he's not going to claim that he did what he did because he was enforcing
the "no bicycles" rule. Probably he'll claim that he was standing still
with the saw and the cyclists came toward him.

Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, with dropping of the
felony charge and probation plus a fine for the misdemeanors.

It'll be an interesting trial. I wonder how long it'll take to find a jury.
 
you...
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 1:46 pm
 
In article
<f9f889f1-e8c5-45e6-953e-63e9a4f46b8f at (no spam) v20g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
y_p_w <y_p_w at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Nov 8, 7:00am, SMS <scharf.ste... at (no spam) geemail.com> wrote:
On 11/7/2010 9:23 PM, y_p_w wrote:

Then what the heck was he doing with a handsaw?

He already admitted "contacting" the cyclists with the saw. Obviously
he's not going to claim that he did what he did because he was enforcing
the "no bicycles" rule. Probably he'll claim that he was standing still
with the saw and the cyclists came toward him.

Very surprising that no plea bargain was reached, with dropping of the
felony charge and probation plus a fine for the misdemeanors.

It'll be an interesting trial. I wonder how long it'll take to find a jury.

I don't live in Alameda County, although I have received a couple of
jury summons. If I happened to be in that jury box, I'm sure that I
could bring up my previous encounters with MV's internet activity and
get excused.

I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial. I do get the
feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.

I have been kind of hoping some of the Mountain Bikers in the area of
the trial, would take the time to show up in court and give us a Blow by
Blow of the trial, and the outcome, maybe even in real time, or via
\Skype from a Notebook or Laptop. Now that would be "Way Cool"....
 
SMS...
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:25 pm
 
On 11/8/2010 9:07 AM, y_p_w wrote:

Quote:
I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial.

No way the defense would want that.

Quote:
I do get the
feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.

Jurors tend to take their responsibility seriously. I don't think he'll
get any sympathy based on the fact that the cyclists were breaking a UC
rule. Certainly his anti-mountain biking crusade will not be brought up
by the defense, and it's probably not admissible by the prosecution.
 
SMS...
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 2:27 pm
 
On 11/8/2010 10:46 AM, you wrote:

Quote:
I have been kind of hoping some of the Mountain Bikers in the area of
the trial, would take the time to show up in court and give us a Blow by
Blow of the trial, and the outcome, maybe even in real time, or via
\Skype from a Notebook or Laptop. Now that would be "Way Cool"....

These types of trials can go for days because of the difficulty in
selecting a jury.
 
SMS...
Posted: Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:12 pm
 
On 08/11/10 1:40 PM, y_p_w wrote:
Quote:
On Nov 8, 11:25 am, SMS<scharf.ste... at (no spam) geemail.com> wrote:
On 11/8/2010 9:07 AM, y_p_w wrote:

I'm wondering why nobody's requested a bench trial.

No way the defense would want that.

I do get the
feeling that MV might be looking at a jury trial in hopes that the
jury will be sympathetic to his anti mountain biking crusade.

Jurors tend to take their responsibility seriously. I don't think he'll
get any sympathy based on the fact that the cyclists were breaking a UC
rule. Certainly his anti-mountain biking crusade will not be brought up
by the defense, and it's probably not admissible by the prosecution.

I think all bets are off if either he or his legal counsel make a
claim that he was trying to enforce a campus policy.

No way that his lawyer would say anything like that.
 
Wolf Leverich...
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:01 pm
 
On 2010-11-09, y_p_w <y_p_w at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:

Quote:
I would think that the Sierra Club might be a bigger stickler for
rules, and might ask the local FS offices for written permission to
perform the trail maintenance. I wouldn't guess that Mr Vandeman ever
asked any UC personnel for written permission.


The contemporary Sierra Club *is* a bigger stickler, which is
why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
trail maintenance in support of land managers.

Individuals acting without Club sanction may be maintaining
routes that have existed for many decades.

Cheers, Wolf.
 
Tom Sherman ...
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:14 pm
 
On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
Quote:
[...]
The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]

Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
*handsaw*?

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007
I am a vehicular cyclist.
 
Edward Dolan...
Posted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:52 pm
 
"Tom Sherman _" <twshermanREMOVE at (no spam) THISsouthslope.net> wrote in message
news:ibd2nj$3n8$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
Quote:
On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
[...]
The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]

Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
*handsaw*?

Tom Sherman does not know what happened any more than any of the other
idiots who post to this forum.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
 
Wolf Leverich...
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 11:07 am
 
On 2010-11-10, Tom Sherman _ <twshermanREMOVE at (no spam) THISsouthslope.net> wrote:
Quote:
On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
[...]
The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]

Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
*handsaw*?


Probably not, but we prolly don't have policies on buggering
sheep or kicking puppies, either. Of course it's wrong.

You realize there are a *lot* of Sierra Club cyclists, both
road and mountain bike, right? My very battered Specialized
hardtail is about 20 feet from where I sit typing. ;-)

Cheers, Wolf.
 
Bruce Jensen...
Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 1:55 pm
 
On Nov 10, 1:07pm, "Wolf Leverich" <lever... at (no spam) linkpendium.com> wrote:
Quote:
On 2010-11-10, Tom Sherman _ <twshermanREM... at (no spam) THISsouthslope.net> wrote:

On 11/9/2010 9:01 PM, Wolf Leverich wrote:
[...]
The contemporary Sierra Club*is* a bigger stickler, which is
why we don't organizationally do anything other than sanctioned
trail maintenance in support of land managers.[...]

Does the Sierra Club have a policy against attacking cyclists with a
*handsaw*?

Probably not, but we prolly don't have policies on buggering
sheep or kicking puppies, either. Of course it's wrong.

You realize there are a *lot* of Sierra Club cyclists, both
road and mountain bike, right? My very battered Specialized
hardtail is about 20 feet from where I sit typing. ;-)

Cheers, Wolf.

Uh, oh, Wolf - now you've done it - Ed "the 'Tard" Dolan has you in
his sights! Very Happy
 
 
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