:O)

Four militants armed with AK-46's. Bear wins:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8339549.stm

On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:52:38 -0800, Ben Crowell wrote:

Clurrie wrote:
Does anybody have some other good weapons that,say, a 12 year old scout
might realistically and legally bring on his or her next hike for
defense against such threats? This may be the thin edge of a new
reality where animals that have not become more of a threat as they
evolve to replace others we humans thoughtlessly removed from the
system....
A 12-year-old scout might want to enjoy the wonderful, unusual
experience of seeing a coyote.

I don't feel like I'm really camping unless the coyotes sing me to
sleep. They won't come up to a tent or get anywhere near an established
campsite, but if I lie down out in the open and am very still they'll
sometimes come within 50 feet for just a few seconds. Once their
curiosity is satisfied they're outta there, and that's it for the night.

The danger of getting fatally mauled is many orders of magnitude less
than the danger of getting hit by a car crossing the street -- or of
drowning in a bathtub, for that matter.

And the very few serious wild-animal attacks that do happen in the lower
48 each year are almost always the human's fault and they're usually
sudden, unexpected, incredibly violent events allowing no opportunity to
reach for a weapon. A little common sense and a few simple precautions
go farther than weaponry here, but my experience has been that those
with the overconfidence of weapons are the least likely to bear-bag
their food, etc.

I'm kinda partial to the Scout
motto: "Be Prepared".

Wolf Leverich wrote:
On 2009-11-01, Clurrie <clurrie at (no spam) NOSPAMhotmail.com> wrote:

Still, it demonstrates that one should not wander totally unarmed in the
wild.

...
Does anybody have some other good weapons that,say, a 12 year old scout
might realistically and legally bring on his or her next hike for
defense against such threats?


Arrgh.

There are thousands of ways to die in the backcountry.

You can only carry so much gear, so what you want to do
is try to cover the mostly likely ways you're gonna die.

In the continental US backcountry, fatal animal attacks,
particularly ones that a weapon can help prevent, are
*very* rare.

Death by hypothermia or dehydration, depending on the
environment, is infinitely more common.

If you have available carrying capacity, more layers, more
fast-burning carbs, and more water are the usual things to
bring along if you want to increase your survival chances.


I agree wholeheartedly. Don't understand your frustration with the
question, though. True, animal attacks are rare and somewhere way down
on my list (way down). But then, I grew up in the country and used to
play in the woods before I started school. Most people are now more or
less "city folks". The point is, you're going to bring some kind of
tools/accessories. My question is, would there be a preference of one
over another because one could function as an improvised weapon of
defense against such a (rare) occurrence. Note that woman had greater
probability of having problems with hypothermia, dehydration, etc. but I
bet that didn't matter when the improbable happened and the coyotes
attacked. In her place and AT THAT POINT, I would have traded all my
polar fleece for something I could beat the beasts over the head with....

Clurrie wrote:
I'm kinda partial to the Scout
motto: "Be Prepared".

Next time I see a coyote, I'd love to be prepared with a camera. If
not, then I'd like to be prepared with some knowledge of coyotes
that would help me to be a good observer and understand what I'm
seeing.

If you want to be prepared for a life-threatening attack by a
large mammal, the best preparation is probably to learn defensive
driving against people driving SUVs while yakking on their cell
phones.

What you do know every time you go out in the Lower 48 is that
you're something like 1,000 times more likely to die of
hypothermia or dehydation than animal attack.

It is irrational and stupid to trade weight that could keep you
alive for a boat anchor.

The reason why I harp on this is that I've led hundreds of
backcountry group trips, and one of the most irritating problems
is getting people to leave the .45 and 2000 rounds of ammo (and
their microwave) at home, and carry a few extra quarts of water.

In 50 years of backcountry travel I have never seen a use for
the .45 and 2000 rounds of ammo, let alone the microwave. But I
watch somebody get cold or run out of water on every frickin trip.

It's depressingly predictable, because people are not making
rational choices with regard to what's gonna keep them alive.

In article <0051ec28$0$16926$c3e8da3 at (no spam) news.astraweb.com>,
Ben Crowell <crowell09 at (no spam) lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com> wrote:

Clurrie wrote:
I'm kinda partial to the Scout
motto: "Be Prepared".

Next time I see a coyote, I'd love to be prepared with a camera. If
not, then I'd like to be prepared with some knowledge of coyotes
that would help me to be a good observer and understand what I'm
seeing.

If you want to be prepared for a life-threatening attack by a
large mammal, the best preparation is probably to learn defensive
driving against people driving SUVs while yakking on their cell
phones.

You just need to go to where the coyotes live.... I have a small pack
that live in my Close Neighborhood (Close = 10 Sq Miles) and have for
the last 4 -5 years. I see them about once a month, and their tracks,
weekly... They aren't interested in "Me" or my other human Close
Neighbors, but they actually hide very well, when our local Wolf Pack
comes thru the area, on a 28 Day Winter Routine.... as do most of the
other non-human mammals, during the Wolves 2 day Stay, before moving on
down the peninsula.

-

Wolf Leverich wrote:
What you do know every time you go out in the Lower 48 is that
you're something like 1,000 times more likely to die of
hypothermia or dehydation than animal attack.

It is irrational and stupid to trade weight that could keep you
alive for a boat anchor.

The reason why I harp on this is that I've led hundreds of
backcountry group trips, and one of the most irritating problems
is getting people to leave the .45 and 2000 rounds of ammo (and
their microwave) at home, and carry a few extra quarts of water.

In 50 years of backcountry travel I have never seen a use for
the .45 and 2000 rounds of ammo, let alone the microwave. But I
watch somebody get cold or run out of water on every frickin trip.

It's depressingly predictable, because people are not making
rational choices with regard to what's gonna keep them alive.

I agree 100% with the spirit of your post. OTOH, I want to be
grouchy and argumentative about dehydration. Dehydration can
kill you fairly quickly compared to, e.g., malnutrition. But
people vastly overestimate the need for hydration. The whole
thing about needing x liters of water per day is an urban
folktale of the same ilk as "Eskimos have x words for snow."

You're backpacking. You run out of water. The streams are dry.
Generally, the cure is to turn around and hike back to the last
place where there was water. Your chances of dying on the hike
back are fairly small.

On 2009-11-07, Ben Crowell <crowel... at (no spam) lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com> wrote:

You're backpacking. You run out of water. The streams are dry.
Generally, the cure is to turn around and hike back to the last
place where there was water. Your chances of dying on the hike
back are fairly small.

Yup, you're right.

No religion here about water; it's just that I'm in
Southern California and do a lot of desert hiking, so
hydration is a real problem in my particular environment.

I've got a couple of friends dead from dehydration, one
up on Rattlesnake above Los Angeles and another on
Martinez up above Palm Springs.

On Nov 7, 6:19 pm, "Wolf Leverich" <lever... at (no spam) linkpendium.com> wrote:
On 2009-11-07, Ben Crowell <crowel... at (no spam) lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com> wrote:

You're backpacking. You run out of water. The streams are dry.
Generally, the cure is to turn around and hike back to the last
place where there was water. Your chances of dying on the hike
back are fairly small.

Yup, you're right.

No religion here about water; it's just that I'm in
Southern California and do a lot of desert hiking, so
hydration is a real problem in my particular environment.

I've got a couple of friends dead from dehydration, one
up on Rattlesnake above Los Angeles and another on
Martinez up above Palm Springs.

I've only known firsthand one person who died in the backcountry ...
he and a second person were both from my college alma mater and died
in separate incidents, one in Big Bend National Park and one in the
Grand Canyon. Both deaths were likely more heat-related than due to
dehydration per se, but water was surely an issue in both cases.

Granted, even in the SW where dehydration is a real threat, actual
deaths from dehydration seem to be rare. I suspect that more people
die from hypothermia and falls.

--MKT