In article <57631250-3318-475d-a8c0-25597a599... at (no spam) c58g2000hsc.googlegroups..com>,

y_p_w <y_... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
It's somewhat oddly reassuring that kind of uniformity wherever
you go, like that familiar NPS white on brown signage.  Or those

It's like McDonalds and the McDonaldization of the world.
People in every country dump on it, but when it comes time to take a dump,
the things collateral to the food like the restrooms have an easy following.

It's generally a good idea to carry TP when traveling.
Civilization (Luxury).

It's somewhat oddly reassuring that kind of uniformity wherever
you go, like that familiar NPS white on brown signage.

It's like McDonalds and the McDonaldization of the world.
People in every country dump on it, but when it comes time to take a dump
the things collateral to the food like the restrooms have an easy following.

Speaking of that....

While on vacation in China I needed to take a dump bad. I had a host
showing me around who took me to a KFC (Kentucky Fried Chicken) in
Shanghai. Then I saw the squat toilet on the floor and decided I
didn't have to take a dump so badly.

...
My biggest worry about squat toilets was that I might lose my balance
and fall in, or maybe accidentally slip and step in it. I've actually
used a historical one when I had no other choice (I was in extreme
pain until the moment of truth), but let's not go there.

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:45:21 -0700 (PDT),y_p_w<y_... at (no spam) hotmail.com
wrote:
My biggest worry about squat toilets was that I might lose my balance
and fall in, or maybe accidentally slip and step in it.  I've actually
used a historical one when I had no other choice (I was in extreme
pain until the moment of truth), but let's not go there.

Why not?
This is raw Usenet.
I had ski boots on the first one I had.  Slick.  No biggie.

I guess I'm slow.  I find it hard to imagine how anyone who has
answered the "call of nature" outdoors (where there are no facilities
of any kind) would have any reluctance at all to use a "squat toilet."

Ah the net.bat (Galen) fired a good one.

"Galen Hekhuis" <ghekhuis at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m2rv74pnebldj4su2ig8vqtd4e3gqf999n at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:45:21 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w <y_p_w at (no spam) hotmail.com
wrote:
My biggest worry about squat toilets was that I might lose my balance
and fall in, or maybe accidentally slip and step in it. I've actually
used a historical one when I had no other choice (I was in extreme
pain until the moment of truth), but let's not go there.

I guess I'm slow. I find it hard to imagine how anyone who has
answered the "call of nature" outdoors (where there are no facilities
of any kind) would have any reluctance at all to use a "squat toilet."

Ah, but there is a fine art to backwoods relief. Preferably a good view and
two large comfortable rocks to sit across while enjoying the moment.

This would be a good time to mention a very serious and informative book:
"How to Shit in the Woods" by Kathleen Meyer. There is an excellent chapter
for women: 'How to Not Pee in Your Boots".

Seriously. No, really...seriously, a good book.

In article <Ry2gk.10$5Q.5 at (no spam) trnddc06>, Wayne <mygarbagecan at (no spam) verizon.net
wrote:
"Galen Hekhuis" <ghekhuis at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m2rv74pnebldj4su2ig8vqtd4e3gqf999n at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:45:21 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w <y_p_w at (no spam) hotmail.com
wrote:
My biggest worry about squat toilets was that I might lose my balance
snip

Ah, but there is a fine art to backwoods relief. Preferably a good view
and
two large comfortable rocks to sit across while enjoying the moment.

See the final episode of Pole-to-Pole with Michael Palin where he takes
a dump (seated) behind a snow wall in the Antarctic, and he comments
about the view.

This would be a good time to mention a very serious and informative book:
"How to Shit in the Woods" by Kathleen Meyer. There is an excellent
chapter
for women: 'How to Not Pee in Your Boots".

Seriously. No, really...seriously, a good book.

Meyer is on the 28th. It's an OK book. We're not had a sani-fem thread
here in a while. Cyli gone, Lobstergrrl gone (have to go visit her) or
lurking, J. gone (biz), M. gone: she's in Mexico until Jan.), Ilana
retired.

The book was great in convincing my wife (raised in a urban environment)

In article <Ry2gk.10$5Q.5 at (no spam) trnddc06>, Wayne <mygarbage... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
"Galen Hekhuis" <ghekh... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:m2rv74pnebldj4su2ig8vqtd4e3gqf999n at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 17:45:21 -0700 (PDT), y_p_w <y_... at (no spam) hotmail.com
wrote:
My biggest worry about squat toilets was that I might lose my balance
and fall in, or maybe accidentally slip and step in it. I've actually
used a historical one when I had no other choice (I was in extreme
pain until the moment of truth), but let's not go there.

Why not?
This is raw Usenet.
I had ski boots on the first one I had. Slick. No biggie.

I guess I'm slow. I find it hard to imagine how anyone who has
answered the "call of nature" outdoors (where there are no facilities
of any kind) would have any reluctance at all to use a "squat toilet."

Ah the net.bat (Galen) fired a good one.

Ah, but there is a fine art to backwoods relief. Preferably a good view and
two large comfortable rocks to sit across while enjoying the moment.

See the final episode of Pole-to-Pole with Michael Palin where he takes
a dump (seated) behind a snow wall in the Antarctic, and he comments
about the view.

This would be a good time to mention a very serious and informative book:
"How to Shit in the Woods" by Kathleen Meyer. There is an excellent chapter
for women: 'How to Not Pee in Your Boots".

Seriously. No, really...seriously, a good book.

Meyer is on the 28th. It's an OK book. We're not had a sani-fem thread
here in a while. Cyli gone, Lobstergrrl gone (have to go visit her) or
lurking, J. gone (biz), M. gone: she's in Mexico until Jan.), Ilana retired.

--

In article <EDAUnKEm3RfIFwSi at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:

Sometime, I am not certain when, jumps got separated from hillsides (I
think after Sapphro which may have been 72). Jumps became towers.
But hill sides blended in. Jumps appear impressive, because cameras face
in and a viewer can't tell how steep they are. The training and the
reality which few people see is that the ground slopes and falls away
but the local altitude isn't very far. If you land, you merely slide.

Maybe so. Looking down the Holmenkollen jump it looked pretty
terrifying. Just the run down to the actual jump is very steep. The top
of the jump is 50 metres high.

It's like training for most activities.
You start small and progress. The ground drops away from you.
You merely get used to it.

A small number of skiers really jump. At Squaw the Broccoli people
hired Rick Sylvester to ski off Thor on Baffin Island, and that was I
think Thunderball's intro complete with Union jack (007 gets chased by
bad guys with machine guns on skis [looks fun] and Bond skis off a cliff
with a parachute Brit flag). Also locally there's guys who ski off 100
ft. cliffs w/o parachutes. One got killed recently. That's all
independent of speed skiers like the McKinneys who go over 200 KPH.

I think there's plenty of people doing similar things in Norway. Ski
jumping started in Norway using the roofs of houses and barns,
apparently.

Yeah that sounds abut right. Boredom. Guys showing off.

I will look for the one in Oslo in Oct. Fram first, then Kontiki,
Amundsen's NW passage boats, friends want me to see the sculpture garden
(Viggland's)

Fram is great. I was surprised at the size.

So far only seen photos.
I think the new Fram is 12,000 tons.
Not riding that one. But I wish.

True ice breakers are something to behold. We have 1 not far from here
in the reserve fleet just passing its time (the Glacier).

I doubt the issue is purely downhill ski resorts, they are merely
the most visible examples.
Mass tourism in general. Industrial tourism Abbey called it.
There's several dynamics there.
Industry is looking for economies of scale.
That's sort of what industry is for. As well as create employment.

Marketing comes into it too. Easy to market masses of people having fun,
whether on a beach or a ski slope. Hard to market wilderness hiking or
climbing.

Well no one underestimated what GM, Ford, and Disney do.
Hiking is work, physical activity. Climbing is dangerous.

Then there are the tourists themselves.
The video game short attention span generation doesn't always get the
outdoors. The same kind of culture which hooks people on alcohol and
cigarettes and drugs also fools many into presuming beauty is Yosemite
or on the ultra-high end, the ultimate of adventure tourism: Antarctica
(or if you are a billionaire, space travel {note: I did send one such
friend in said latter category a good wishes note}). People expect
weird things.

People come to the Highlands and say it's for the landscape but then say
there's not enough to do.

What the paint ball crowd hasn't discovered Scotland? 8^)

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!
I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.
Tourists are often tolerated. The English abroad can be embarrassing. I

One English climbing partner here has a French girlfriend whom I've run
into of late more than him (I also happen to work with his ex-girlfriend
before her as well as that woman's husband (lurkers)).

I have British friends who live in France. There's more interaction than
many people outside the two countries think.

You guys did building a chunnel with them.

Well G. notes that the English are somewhat rigid and stuck up, and have
uninteresting food, and other stereotypes. Yet she has an English boy
friend whom she finds none of those and intersting.

Also yet is the
rigidity of the relations with religion.

I've watched people merely hold out change to pay.
...
laundry as well (all of whom where dead: which is how US surplus stores
got populated with gear post-WWII for decades).

And UK surplus stores - where I bought much of my first gear.

Yes, we have some fine surplus stores, too. And I've been in Armee
liquidation in 3 Swiss locations. Amazing what you find.
Which UK towns have good surplus stores?

In French tourist areas, after the initial Bonjour or Bonsoir I would
offer the retailer: (PV) English or Japanese? And that takes them aback.
So they appreciate knowing English, they just simple don't want to deal
with non-European languages.

Don't know how to deal with it, I suspect. English - through American TV
and films rather than anything from Britain - is now common throughout
Europe.

Well the BBC is visible on most Continental TV. The US might have CNN.
There tends to be less of this in France of course but more so in larger
towns and cities and places with satellite over cable despite differing
TV signal standards.

The French interacting with
Spaniards, Italians, and Swiss (especially French speaking) all have
"romance" languages. They are clearly a little more weary of their
German neighbors, but they seem to realize for the future of Europe,
they have to get along.
It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Switzerland of course is not in the EU.
Nor Norway nor Iceland. I think it's more than just the Franco-German
alliance.

Of course others have influence but I think France and Germany are the
core.

Yeah, don't say that in Spain. The Spanish are particularly proud of
being among the earliest EU members.

I think the Spanish and Portuguese have a good hand and bringing the
....
They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.
The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some of whom are
African of course.
Yeah sort of like Latin Americans in California. I watched this
interation within the Iberian peninsula and a note the Swiss President
(at that time) to his people on this. France is also having a tough
time coming to grips. If a sea can't stop immigration, a wall won't either.

In Europe culture is a big issue.

Yeah I was taken to a restaurant once with a particular country's
nationalist tendencies. So SF has a German consulate. Never been
there, know a couple of people who work there. Well Bavaria has its own
full time consulate, in Palo Alto, not only because of the BMW research
facility but because of the VW Research facility which of course is in a
different German state.

It's people's identity. We have not yet reached the point where when
asked where home is, we respond: Earth.

Asians,
Chinese
They know that like other elementary school exercises it
would be good idea to get a few basic Chinese phrases down, count to
ten, etc. Usually in Mandarin.
Are they doing it though? They're certainly not in Britain. Here
learning even French and German are in decline. We are becoming more
insular.
I looked into an elementary school in France.
In the young ages before the kids get jaded, it's like uno, dos, tres,
quatro... here in the USA. Ichi, ni, san, si, go... Ein, svi, drei,...
Yes? No? Good morning. Good bye.

Sounds like more than is being done here.

I suspect you have varying degrees in education in the UK (possibly more
public than private in the UK sense). The time kids are in elementary
school is something I and coworkers recently talked about. In addition
to math, addition, arithmetic, printing, cursive script (handwriting), we
talked about learning local geographic things like we had a tuna
industry, we grow citrus, we have various industrties. People panned gold.
We killed off our designated animal (on our flag no less).

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners)
The Swiss
I'm also aware that these names we use are modern names and these all
used to be hundreds of fiefdoms.
The future of cultural mapping will be interesting.
It always is. Europe has changed greatly the last few decades. Here in
Scotland there is now concern because many of the Poles are going home
Here and Ireland as well.
The metric we watch is foreign student grad enrollment.

I think it's more waiters and plumbers here!

HP in Ireland. Factories and call centers.

Tourists, including mountaineers, created the modern Alps
Fergus Fleming's Killing Dragons:The Conquest of the Alps is an
entertaining version of the story.
Well Whymper did his part with the Matterhorn.
That's in the Fleming book, late on. The dragons were all gone by then.
The Matterhorn was the last of the 1st generation dragons.

Metaphorical dragons yes. I was thinking more of the actual dragons
believed to live in the Alps.

What was the name of that ridge of dragons teeth in the Alps?

I'm more toward Hannibal's elephants.

Thomas Cook did his part for St. Moritz.
The inventor of package tourism. The company is still going.
Yes, invest in money exchange.

I have my Euros.

8^) I've a few, too.

Arnold Lund did his part for ski racing (not that I
have any interest in skiing the Inferno or taking the tobaggan on the
Gresta run).
Arguably the inventor of modern ski racing.
Yes.
I had some homework.
He likely has skeletons in his closet.

Has anyone not?

I suspect that there are actually a few non-stone casters.
That's where we get them for other things.

Rousseau and Ruskin.
Piccard and Balmat.
I still do. Fleming covers Piccard and Balmat. Rousseau and Ruskin turn
all over the place. Mind you, I'm in the Grand Canyon not the Alps at
present, reading Harvey Butchart's biography.
You can get paid for it. I enjoyed Chamonix for their statues. They
name their streets after alpinists. I think of how few tourists who
visit Rue due Lionel Terray have any idea whom he was. Harvey's
biographer was just here in his area. I like Flagstaff. Some of
Harvey's math is more interesting to me than his GC stuff. That was his
entertainment.

Very serious entertainment. I don't know anything about his maths.

Not a great one, just a teacher.

John Gill is the same way.

Is Scotland sovereign now?
No. There's a Scottish National Party government
Wales knows this? ;^)
Wales does know this Wales was conquered by England in 1284 and by
Scotland wasn't conquered, it united with England,
Speaking of conquest: I just caught the tail end of the Treat Williams
remake of Journey to the Center of the Earth which apparently used NZ
for their descent. I will go see the current remake some time for the 3-D.
We were just talking about this at lunch (James Mason version).
I prefer the Yes Rick Wakeman music.

As film music it's okay. Yes/Wakeman have never been favourites of mine.

I grew to appreciate them.

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.
I was wondering. That's why I baited it. Who knows when I'll get to
the UK again next.
And will it still be the UK.
THE SUN NEVER SETS ON ...

It didn't, once.

It does now?

Are you supposed to stand at attention, face London and sing some hymn
like song?

Certainly not :-)

Ah! ;^)

In Scotland it's not likely to be a hymn-like song people would sing
towards London :-)

Edinburgh is our capital.

Been there. Still have to see Gibson in the role.

Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance
Friedrichshafen,
zepplin.
I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.
I am slightly jealous. Next year. It will have to compete for my time
Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....
Hmmm. Tough choice.
Do both. Go visit Lindt.
The zeppelins are walking distance from the tipis where I'll be staying
so I guess that's where I'll go.
Most of my time there will be work.

Eh, that's the rub.

Aye, but at least I get there.

A delicate balance in this age of work.
Whether merely location is sufficient to claim being there.

Certainly. The outdoor shows I've been to in Harrogate, Birmingham,

Ski jumps ......
Jumps became towers.
Maybe so. Looking down the Holmenkollen jump it looked pretty
terrifying. Just the run down to the actual jump is very steep. The top
of the jump is 50 metres high.

It's like training for most activities.
You start small and progress. The ground drops away from you.
You merely get used to it.

Going from bouncing over bumps of a few feet to looking down an Olympic
ski jump is a big difference

A small number of skiers really jump.
I think there's plenty of people doing similar things in Norway. Ski
jumping started in Norway using the roofs of houses and barns,
apparently.
Yeah that sounds abut right. Boredom. Guys showing off.

Playing games. Competing.

I will look for the one in Oslo in Oct. Fram first, then Kontiki,
Amundsen's NW passage boats, friends want me to see the sculpture garden
(Viggland's)
Fram is great. I was surprised at the size.
I think the new Fram is 12,000 tons.
True ice breakers are something to behold. We have 1 not far from here
in the reserve fleet just passing its time (the Glacier).

I saw one in northern Norway once. Impressive.

I doubt the issue is purely downhill ski resorts, they are merely
the most visible examples.
Mass tourism in general. Industrial tourism Abbey called it.
There's several dynamics there.
Industry is looking for economies of scale.
That's sort of what industry is for. As well as create employment.
Marketing comes into it too. Easy to market masses of people having fun,
whether on a beach or a ski slope. Hard to market wilderness hiking or
climbing.
Well no one underestimated what GM, Ford, and Disney do.
Hiking is work, physical activity. Climbing is dangerous.

Not just the effort or danger though. Also the visibility. Watching the
Eiger Nordwand. Climbs filmed for TV - usually several teams on several
close routes (the Old Man of Hoy was the prototype) because one team
alone isn't active or interesting enough.

Then there are the tourists themselves.
The video game short attention span generation doesn't always get the
outdoors. The same kind of culture which hooks people on alcohol and
cigarettes and drugs also fools many into presuming beauty is Yosemite
or on the ultra-high end, the ultimate of adventure tourism: Antarctica
(or if you are a billionaire, space travel {note: I did send one such
friend in said latter category a good wishes note}). People expect
weird things.
People come to the Highlands and say it's for the landscape but then say
there's not enough to do.

What the paint ball crowd hasn't discovered Scotland? 8^)

I haven't noticed them . Plenty of mountain bikers.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!
I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.
Tourists are often tolerated. The English abroad can be embarrassing. I
I have British friends who live in France. There's more interaction than
many people outside the two countries think.
You guys did building a chunnel with them.

And it's great too. I've taken the train through quite a few times.

Well G. notes that the English are somewhat rigid and stuck up, and have
uninteresting food, and other stereotypes. Yet she has an English boy
friend whom she finds none of those and intersting.

The stereotypes were probably truer in the past I suspect ...... stiff
upper lip and all that. The food is interesting now because it's
international - I rarely go into a restaurant serving British food. I
prefer Italian, Chinese, Mexican, Indian, Moroccan ....

Also yet is the rigidity of the relations with religion.

English relations? Church of England?
Britain is basically a secular country.

US surplus stores
And UK surplus stores - where I bought much of my first gear.
Yes, we have some fine surplus stores, too. And I've been in Armee
liquidation in 3 Swiss locations. Amazing what you find.
Which UK towns have good surplus stores?

I haven't been in one for years but most towns used to have a Famous
Arrny Store and an Army & Navy Store.

Of course there are web sites now:

http://www.famousarmystore.co.uk/
http://www.meanandgreen.com/

Well the BBC is visible on most Continental TV. The US might have CNN.

The BBC isn't watched much everywhere though. The English accents are
often the clue. Norwegians have English English accents, Swedes have
American English accents.

It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Yeah, don't say that in Spain. The Spanish are particularly proud of
being among the earliest EU members.

The original six.

I think the Spanish and Portuguese have a good hand and bringing the
....
They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.
The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some of whom are
African of course.
It's people's identity. We have not yet reached the point where when
asked where home is, we respond: Earth.

Here we have not yet reached the point where people respond Europe.

Asians,
Chinese
They know that like other elementary school exercises it
would be good idea to get a few basic Chinese phrases down, count to
ten, etc. Usually in Mandarin.
Are they doing it though? They're certainly not in Britain. Here
learning even French and German are in decline. We are becoming more
insular.
I looked into an elementary school in France.
I suspect you have varying degrees in education in the UK (possibly more
public than private in the UK sense). The time kids are in elementary

The Scottish education system is pretty good I think. More language work
here than in England afaik. & more outdoors education as well.

A change since I was at secondary school is that you can now easily mix
arts and science subjects after the first few years. We had to make
decisions at age 15 or 16 - history, English and languages or physics,
chemistry and maths? History, physics and a language wasn't possible. It
is now. Of course there's new subjects now too, such as computing.

fiefdoms.
The future of cultural mapping will be interesting.
HP in Ireland. Factories and call centers.

Many of our call centres are now in India.

Tourists, including mountaineers, created the modern Alps
Fergus Fleming's Killing Dragons:The Conquest of the Alps is an
Well Whymper did his part with the Matterhorn.
That's in the Fleming book, late on. The dragons were all gone by then.
The Matterhorn was the last of the 1st generation dragons.
Metaphorical dragons yes. I was thinking more of the actual dragons
believed to live in the Alps.
What was the name of that ridge of dragons teeth in the Alps?
I don't know that one.

I'm more toward Hannibal's elephants.
A fascinating story. How to invade Italy from Africa.

Thomas Cook did his part for St. Moritz.
The inventor of package tourism. The company is still going.
Yes, invest in money exchange.
I have my Euros.
8^) I've a few, too.

I've spent mine now

Arnold Lund did his part for ski racing
Arguably the inventor of modern ski racing.
He likely has skeletons in his closet.
Has anyone not?
I suspect that there are actually a few non-stone casters.
That's where we get them for other things.

Maybe.

Rousseau and Ruskin.
Piccard and Balmat.
I still do. Fleming covers Piccard and Balmat. Rousseau and Ruskin turn
all over the place. Mind you, I'm in the Grand Canyon not the Alps at
present, reading Harvey Butchart's biography.
You can get paid for it. I enjoyed Chamonix for their statues. They
name their streets after alpinists. I think of how few tourists who
visit Rue due Lionel Terray have any idea whom he was. Harvey's
biographer was just here in his area. I like Flagstaff. Some of
Harvey's math is more interesting to me than his GC stuff. That was his
entertainment.
Very serious entertainment. I don't know anything about his maths.
Not a great one, just a teacher.

A great opener of the Grand Canyon though. The first hiking guide book
writer.

John Gill is the same way.

Bouldering's outside my sphere. I know the name.

remake of Journey to the Center of the Earth which apparently used NZ
for their descent.
We were just talking about this at lunch (James Mason version).
I prefer the Yes Rick Wakeman music.
As film music it's okay. Yes/Wakeman have never been favourites of mine.
I grew to appreciate them.

I didn't bother

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.
I was wondering. That's why I baited it. Who knows when I'll get to
the UK again next.
And will it still be the UK.
THE SUN NEVER SETS ON ...
It didn't, once.
It does now?

I guess it doesn't now because there's no empire for it to set on.

In Scotland it's not likely to be a hymn-like song people would sing
towards London
Edinburgh is our capital.
Been there. Still have to see Gibson in the role.

So have I.

Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance
Friedrichshafen,
zepplin.
I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.
Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....
Do both. Go visit Lindt.
The zeppelins are walking distance from the tipis where I'll be staying
so I guess that's where I'll go.
Most of my time there will be work.
Eh, that's the rub.
Aye, but at least I get there.
A delicate balance in this age of work.
Whether merely location is sufficient to claim being there.

Certainly. The outdoor shows I've been to in Harrogate, Birmingham,
Friedrichshafen and Salt Lake City all take place in very similar modern
exhibition centres. You have to get out and experience the locality.

In article <MnOWONXnOhhIFwBm at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Ski jumps ......
Jumps became towers.
Maybe so. Looking down the Holmenkollen jump it looked pretty
terrifying. Just the run down to the actual jump is very steep. The top
of the jump is 50 metres high.

It's like training for most activities.
You start small and progress. The ground drops away from you.
You merely get used to it.

Going from bouncing over bumps of a few feet to looking down an Olympic
ski jump is a big difference :-)

Somewhat difference skills but can be combined.

A small number of skiers really jump.
I think there's plenty of people doing similar things in Norway. Ski
jumping started in Norway using the roofs of houses and barns,
apparently.
Yeah that sounds abut right. Boredom. Guys showing off.

Playing games. Competing.

Sex.

I will look for the one in Oslo in Oct. Fram first, then Kontiki,
Amundsen's NW passage boats, friends want me to see the sculpture garden
(Viggland's)
Fram is great. I was surprised at the size.
I think the new Fram is 12,000 tons.
True ice breakers are something to behold. We have 1 not far from here
in the reserve fleet just passing its time (the Glacier).

I saw one in northern Norway once. Impressive.

A small market in a changing world.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!
I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.
Tourists are often tolerated. The English abroad can be embarrassing. I
I have British friends who live in France. There's more interaction than
many people outside the two countries think.
You guys did building a chunnel with them.

And it's great too. I've taken the train through quite a few times.

It only takes a common enemy.

Well G. notes that the English are somewhat rigid and stuck up, and have
uninteresting food, and other stereotypes. Yet she has an English boy
friend whom she finds none of those and intersting.

The stereotypes were probably truer in the past I suspect ...... stiff
upper lip and all that. The food is interesting now because it's
international - I rarely go into a restaurant serving British food. I
prefer Italian, Chinese, Mexican, Indian, Moroccan ....

Indian was English. Chinese, a part, was English. The rest were under
The Pope.

Also yet is the rigidity of the relations with religion.

English relations? Church of England?
Britain is basically a secular country.

Yeah so say the French and the Italians.
It's matter of degree and what you chose to keep implicit and latent.

US surplus stores
And UK surplus stores - where I bought much of my first gear.
Yes, we have some fine surplus stores, too. And I've been in Armee
liquidation in 3 Swiss locations. Amazing what you find.
Which UK towns have good surplus stores?

I haven't been in one for years but most towns used to have a Famous
Arrny Store and an Army & Navy Store.

Of course there are web sites now:

http://www.famousarmystore.co.uk/
http://www.meanandgreen.com/

You should send those to .... who was it maintaining 7? Gary.

Well the BBC is visible on most Continental TV. The US might have CNN.

The BBC isn't watched much everywhere though. The English accents are
often the clue. Norwegians have English English accents, Swedes have
American English accents.

Fads and choice.

It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Yeah, don't say that in Spain. The Spanish are particularly proud of
being among the earliest EU members.

The original six.

Whom were the other 2?

I think the Spanish and Portuguese have a good hand and bringing the
....
They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.
The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some of whom are
African of course.
It's people's identity. We have not yet reached the point where when
asked where home is, we respond: Earth.

Here we have not yet reached the point where people respond Europe.

Years down the road.

Asians,
Chinese
They know that like other elementary school exercises it
would be good idea to get a few basic Chinese phrases down, count to
ten, etc. Usually in Mandarin.
Are they doing it though? They're certainly not in Britain. Here
learning even French and German are in decline. We are becoming more
insular.
I looked into an elementary school in France.
I suspect you have varying degrees in education in the UK (possibly more
public than private in the UK sense). The time kids are in elementary

The Scottish education system is pretty good I think. More language work
here than in England afaik. & more outdoors education as well.

Is it?

A change since I was at secondary school is that you can now easily mix
arts and science subjects after the first few years. We had to make
decisions at age 15 or 16 - history, English and languages or physics,
chemistry and maths? History, physics and a language wasn't possible. It
is now. Of course there's new subjects now too, such as computing.

Test kids?

fiefdoms.
The future of cultural mapping will be interesting.
HP in Ireland. Factories and call centers.

Many of our call centres are now in India.

Yes, watching. We had them in West Virginia and then they were too expensive.

I'm more toward Hannibal's elephants.
A fascinating story. How to invade Italy from Africa.

Over the pass.

Thomas Cook did his part for St. Moritz.
The inventor of package tourism. The company is still going.
Yes, invest in money exchange.
I have my Euros.
8^) I've a few, too.

I've spent mine now :-)

Tup-Euros. Like tupence.
Learn to save.

Rousseau and Ruskin.
Piccard and Balmat.
I still do. Fleming covers Piccard and Balmat. Rousseau and Ruskin turn
all over the place. Mind you, I'm in the Grand Canyon not the Alps at
present, reading Harvey Butchart's biography.
You can get paid for it. I enjoyed Chamonix for their statues. They
name their streets after alpinists. I think of how few tourists who
visit Rue due Lionel Terray have any idea whom he was. Harvey's
biographer was just here in his area. I like Flagstaff. Some of
Harvey's math is more interesting to me than his GC stuff. That was his
entertainment.
Very serious entertainment. I don't know anything about his maths.
Not a great one, just a teacher.

A great opener of the Grand Canyon though. The first hiking guide book
writer.

He was a little of a disappointment to Fletcher. He had to finish
before Colin did his walk.

remake of Journey to the Center of the Earth which apparently used NZ
for their descent.
We were just talking about this at lunch (James Mason version).
I prefer the Yes Rick Wakeman music.
As film music it's okay. Yes/Wakeman have never been favourites of mine.
I grew to appreciate them.

I didn't bother :-)

They are your countrymen in part.

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.
I was wondering. That's why I baited it. Who knows when I'll get to
the UK again next.
And will it still be the UK.
THE SUN NEVER SETS ON ...
It didn't, once.
It does now?

I guess it doesn't now because there's no empire for it to set on.

You still have the Commonwealth.

Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance
Friedrichshafen,
zepplin.
I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.
Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....
Do both. Go visit Lindt.
The zeppelins are walking distance from the tipis where I'll be staying
so I guess that's where I'll go.
Most of my time there will be work.
Eh, that's the rub.
Aye, but at least I get there.
A delicate balance in this age of work.
Whether merely location is sufficient to claim being there.

Certainly. The outdoor shows I've been to in Harrogate, Birmingham,
Friedrichshafen and Salt Lake City all take place in very similar modern
exhibition centres. You have to get out and experience the locality.

Oh, we have converged on conferenec reality.

I'm glad I don't go to many.

In message <48884298$1 at (no spam) darkstar>, Eugene Miya <eug... at (no spam) cse.ucsc.edu
writes
In article <MnOWONXnOhhIF... at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend  <Ch... at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Well the BBC is visible on most Continental TV.  The US might have CNN.

The BBC isn't watched much everywhere though. The English accents are
often the clue. Norwegians have English English accents, Swedes have
American English accents.

Fads and choice.

And availability and commercial decisions. And history. Norway became
very close to Britain during WWII and that hasn't been forgotten.
Norwegian commandos trained in the mountains near me.

On Jul 24, 4:43=A0am, Chris Townsend
Ch... at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In message <48884298$1 at (no spam) darkstar>, Eugene Miya <eug... at (no spam) cse.ucsc.edu
writes
In article <MnOWONXnOhhIF... at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend =A0<Ch... at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Well the BBC is visible on most Continental TV. =A0The US might have C=
NN.

The BBC isn't watched much everywhere though. The English accents are

often the clue. Norwegians have English English accents, Swedes have
American English accents.

Fads and choice.

And availability and commercial decisions. And history. Norway became
very close to Britain during WWII and that hasn't been forgotten.
Norwegian commandos trained in the mountains near me.

Well - Crown Prince Haakon of Norway received his education at UC
Berkeley. Perhaps this might rub off a little. Or maybe not.

Ski jumps ......
Jumps became towers.
Maybe so. Looking down the Holmenkollen jump it looked pretty
terrifying. Just the run down to the actual jump is very steep. The top
of the jump is 50 metres high.
It's like training for most activities.
You start small and progress. The ground drops away from you. >>>>You merely get used to it.
Going from bouncing over bumps of a few feet to looking down an Olympic
ski jump is a big difference
Somewhat difference skills but can be combined.

Landing is the key.

A small number of skiers really jump.
I think there's plenty of people doing similar things in Norway. Ski
Yeah that sounds abut right. Boredom. Guys showing off.
Playing games. Competing.
Sex.

Mating displays/rituals are probably the source of most sports, perhaps
all.

I will look for the one in Oslo in Oct. Fram first, then Kontiki,
Amundsen's NW passage boats, friends want me to see the sculpture garden
(Viggland's)
Fram is great. I was surprised at the size.
I think the new Fram is 12,000 tons.
True ice breakers are something to behold. We have 1 not far from here
in the reserve fleet just passing its time (the Glacier).

I saw one in northern Norway once. Impressive.
A small market in a changing world.

The opening up of the Arctic as the ice retreats may increase the market
for a while.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!
I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.
Tourists are often tolerated. The English abroad can be embarrassing. I
I have British friends who live in France. There's more interaction than
many people outside the two countries think.
You guys did building a chunnel with them.
And it's great too. I've taken the train through quite a few times.
It only takes a common enemy.

There was an argument against the Tunnel on the basis that France was
the enemy.

Well G. notes that the English are somewhat rigid and stuck up, and have
uninteresting food, and other stereotypes. Yet she has an English boy
friend whom she finds none of those and intersting.
The stereotypes were probably truer in the past I suspect ...... stiff
upper lip and all that. The food is interesting now because it's
international - I rarely go into a restaurant serving British food. I
prefer Italian, Chinese, Mexican, Indian, Moroccan ....
India was English. Chinese, a part, was English. The rest were under
The Pope.

Indian food had the biggest early influence. Now English curry dishes go
back to India.

Also yet is the rigidity of the relations with religion.
English relations? Church of England?
Britain is basically a secular country.
Yeah so say the French and the Italians.
It's matter of degree and what you chose to keep implicit and latent.

Officially we have a state religion of course. The Church of England is
a state church and the Queen is the head of it.

Western Europe as a whole is pretty secular.

US surplus stores
And UK surplus stores - where I bought much of my first gear.
Yes, we have some fine surplus stores, too. And I've been in Armee
liquidation in 3 Swiss locations. Amazing what you find.
Which UK towns have good surplus stores?
I haven't been in one for years but most towns used to have a Famous
Arrny Store and an Army & Navy Store.
Of course there are web sites now:
http://www.famousarmystore.co.uk/
http://www.meanandgreen.com/
You should send those to .... who was it maintaining 7? Gary.

I'll try and get round to it.

Well the BBC is visible on most Continental TV. The US might have CNN.
The BBC isn't watched much everywhere though. The English accents are
often the clue. Norwegians have English English accents, Swedes have
American English accents.
Fads and choice.

And availability and commercial decisions. And history. Norway became
very close to Britain during WWII and that hasn't been forgotten.
Norwegian commandos trained in the mountains near me.

It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Yeah, don't say that in Spain. The Spanish are particularly proud of
being among the earliest EU members.
The original six.

Spain weren't actually in the original six. These were France, Italy,
West Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. The UK joined in
1973, Spain some ten years later. There was no chance of Spain joining
until it became a democracy after Franco.

I think the Spanish and Portuguese have a good hand and bringing the
....
They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.
The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some of whom are
African of course.
It's people's identity. We have not yet reached the point where when
asked where home is, we respond: Earth.
Here we have not yet reached the point where people respond Europe.
Years down the road.

If ever. The current mood in Britain is anti Europe.

Asians,
Chinese
good idea to get a few basic Chinese phrases down,
Are they doing it though? They're certainly not in Britain. Here
learning even French and German are in decline. We are becoming more
I looked into an elementary school in France.
I suspect you have varying degrees in education in the UK (possibly more
public than private in the UK sense). The time kids are in elementary
The Scottish education system is pretty good I think. More language work
here than in England afaik. & more outdoors education as well.
Is it?

I reckon so.

A change since I was at secondary school is that you can now easily mix
arts and science subjects after the first few years. We had to make
decisions at age 15 or 16 - history, English and languages or physics,
chemistry and maths? History, physics and a language wasn't possible. It
is now. Of course there's new subjects now too, such as computing.
Test kids?
Too many tests, in my opinion.

fiefdoms.
The future of cultural mapping will be interesting.
HP in Ireland. Factories and call centers.
Many of our call centres are now in India.
Yes, watching. We had them in West Virginia and then they were too expensive.

We had them in Scotland too.

I'm more toward Hannibal's elephants.
A fascinating story. How to invade Italy from Africa.
Over the pass.
Eventually! After traversing Spain.

Thomas Cook did his part for St. Moritz.
The inventor of package tourism. The company is still going.
Yes, invest in money exchange.
I have my Euros.
8^) I've a few, too.
I've spent mine now
Tup-Euros. Like tupence.
Learn to save.

Well, I only had 50 of them in the first place.

Rousseau and Ruskin.
Piccard and Balmat.
I still do. Fleming covers Piccard and Balmat. Rousseau and Ruskin turn
all over the place. Mind you, I'm in the Grand Canyon not the Alps at
present, reading Harvey Butchart's biography.
A great opener of the Grand Canyon though. The first hiking guide book
writer.
He was a little of a disappointment to Fletcher. He had to finish
before Colin did his walk.

He actually finished after Fletcher's walk began but before Fletcher
reached the section he still hadn't done.

The two big differences between them are that Butchart never wanted to
do trips of more than 2-3 days - he said he couldn't imagine not being
bored and lonely on a longer trip - and that Fletcher could write and
Butchart couldn't.

remake of Journey to the Center of the Earth which apparently used NZ
the Yes Rick Wakeman music.
I didn't bother
They are your countrymen in part.

Yes. Doesn't mean I have to like them

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.
I was wondering. That's why I baited it. Who knows when I'll get to
the UK again next.
And will it still be the UK.
THE SUN NEVER SETS ON ...
It didn't, once.
It does now?
I guess it doesn't now because there's no empire for it to set on.

You still have the Commonwealth.

A loose arrangement of countries whose purpose seems unclear.

Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance
Friedrichshafen,
zepplin.
have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.
Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....
Do both. Go visit Lindt.
The zeppelins are walking distance from the tipis where I'll be staying
so I guess that's where I'll go.
Most of my time there will be work.
Eh, that's the rub.
Aye, but at least I get there.
A delicate balance in this age of work.
Whether merely location is sufficient to claim being there.
Certainly. The outdoor shows I've been to in Harrogate, Birmingham,
Friedrichshafen and Salt Lake City all take place in very similar modern
exhibition centres. You have to get out and experience the locality.
Oh, we have converged on conference reality.

I'm glad I don't go to many.

In article <6Fj7WCCfrGiIFwMj at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:

It's sauna night Chris. I'm only going to respond until co-ed hours
start.

Ski jumps ......

Going from bouncing over bumps of a few feet to looking down an Olympic
ski jump is a big difference
Somewhat difference skills but can be combined.

Landing is the key.

The key is that it's not a flat landing.

It fakea a lot of air and if you blow it, you are less likely to get
killed.

I will look for the one in Oslo in Oct. Fram first, then Kontiki,
Amundsen's NW passage boats, friends want me to see the sculpture garden
(Viggland's)
Fram is great. I was surprised at the size.
I think the new Fram is 12,000 tons.
True ice breakers are something to behold. We have 1 not far from here
in the reserve fleet just passing its time (the Glacier).

The new Fram isn't an ice breaker.

The opening up of the Arctic as the ice retreats may increase the market
for a while.

It's Ice Station Zebra all over again.
Billions at stake. The NW Passage will become a tourist destination as
well as lots of commerce.

Channel Tunnel

And it's great too. I've taken the train through quite a few times.
It only takes a common enemy.

There was an argument against the Tunnel on the basis that France was
the enemy.

I heard that.
I also know that globalization is having a big impact on shipping.
So the train is merely another ship.

Well G. notes that the English are somewhat rigid and stuck up, and have
uninteresting food, and other stereotypes. Yet she has an English boy
friend whom she finds none of those and intersting.
The stereotypes were probably truer in the past I suspect ...... stiff
upper lip and all that. The food is interesting now because it's
international - I rarely go into a restaurant serving British food. I
prefer Italian, Chinese, Mexican, Indian, Moroccan ....
India was English. Chinese, a part, was English. The rest were under
The Pope.

Indian food had the biggest early influence. Now English curry dishes go
back to India.

Chicken vindaloo?

Smoke me a kipper.

I can think of some English church tunes, I have no idea their titles.
But you guys tend to stand up at attention. And those aren't God Save
the Queen.

It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Yeah, don't say that in Spain. The Spanish are particularly proud of
being among the earliest EU members.
The original six.

Spain weren't actually in the original six. These were France, Italy,
West Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium and Luxembourg. The UK joined in
1973, Spain some ten years later. There was no chance of Spain joining
until it became a democracy after Franco.

You guys are only partial members. Like the Swiss.

I think the Spanish and Portuguese have a good hand and bringing the
....
They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.
The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some of whom are
African of course.
It's people's identity. We have not yet reached the point where when
asked where home is, we respond: Earth.
Here we have not yet reached the point where people respond Europe.
Years down the road.

If ever. The current mood in Britain is anti Europe.

Do you mean anti-Continent?

I suspect you have varying degrees in education in the UK (possibly more
public than private in the UK sense). The time kids are in elementary
The Scottish education system is pretty good I think. More language work
here than in England afaik. & more outdoors education as well.
Is it?

I reckon so.

Well, I know your parents worry.

I'm more toward Hannibal's elephants.
A fascinating story. How to invade Italy from Africa.
Over the pass.
Eventually! After traversing Spain.

Over or around the Pyranees.

Mind you, I'm in the Grand Canyon not the Alps at
present, reading Harvey Butchart's biography.
A great opener of the Grand Canyon though. The first hiking guide book
writer.
He was a little of a disappointment to Fletcher. He had to finish
before Colin did his walk.

He actually finished after Fletcher's walk began but before Fletcher
reached the section he still hadn't done.

Harvey was no dummy. I knew what Colin was up to.

The two big differences between them are that Butchart never wanted to
do trips of more than 2-3 days - he said he couldn't imagine not being
bored and lonely on a longer trip - and that Fletcher could write and
Butchart couldn't.

Also more water carrying or caching.