My map indicates that Whitney Portal is maybe three miles from Mount
Whitney in a straight line.
I haven't been there, but I thought that you can actually see Mount
Whitney from Whitney Portal.

It's been a while, but there's a couple of places near the Portal where
you can see the summit and upper part of the East Buttress.

Again - I was going by some quick and dirty research.
That's fine.

You should have seen what happened when I commented in the SFGate
website on that Outward Bound group that was reported missing and then
made its way to Florence Lake a week ago. I mapped out the way to get
to the Florence Lake Store from Fresno, and someone else commented
(angrily) that I screwed up because he believed the Florence Lake
Store was on the other side of the lake (from the road) and accessible
only by ferry. Turns out he'd never been there either, went by what
he recalled from a Chron outdoors article, and other people who had
been there called him out for being wrong.

I just typed
Whitney Portal into an image search and came up with photos of Mount
Whitney. =A0I guess most of them were taken on the way to Whitney Portal
or where it was just in the picture.

You can't see the summit from road end for 2 different reasons: trees
and local topography.
....
The check is the Star Trek Generations film. =3DA0There's a cut which =
start=3D
s
viewing the Whitney summit (w/o ID) which pans down to a house at
Whitney Portal and then cut inside the house the soon to be dead Capt.
Kirk
is making an omelet when Piccard enters.

Death Valley
It's all Europeans and even now Americans who want to challenge the heat
....
Bad Water

I was there with my folks. They didn't get out of the car and kept
the engine running with the A/C on. I pulled out my umbrella to make
it a little more bearable.

As soon as I got to the Furnace Creek Ranch store, I bought a couple
of Icees. That felt really good although they started thawing out
rather quickly.

190 is rather interesting. Why go on a roller coaster when you can
get that stomach to your head feeling "riding the waves" at the speed
limit?

apparently attempted it against their strong recommendations against
it. =A0Don't know if he became vulture food.

On this trip a couple of years ago, I arrived in Bishop without a
reservation (didn't I mention this before?) and was fortunate to fine
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ??

Typo. Isn't it obvious?

one of the last rooms in town. =A0We probably could have made our way to
Mammoth Lakes, but that would have been pricier.
40 miles, too

small towns in the middle of nowhere, many of the retail businesses
are run by immigrant families from South Asia and the Middle East.
Must be a real culture shock for them.

They are very adaptable. =A0You mean towns like Paradise? =A0Pine Creek?
Laws? =A0They are also in the Central Valley all over the place.

I've had discussions with my South Asian coworkers through the years.
Apparently families from one region of India who immigrate to the US
have concentrated their efforts in the lodging industry.

I had some college classmates who were of American born of Indian
ancestry. They certainly "got it" when it came to the Simpsons
character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon.

"Come again!"

King Canyon

There's wasn't all that much to see there unless you go for a short
walk. But there is a bathroom, and the college kid manning the permit
station didn't mind having someone to talk to. I came from Yosemite
on that trip, and there was a photo at the permit station of the
crowded Half Dome cables with a caption saying, "Be glad you're not at
Yosemite!"

In article <hmSsOfK0crdIFwEr at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
In message <4876af17$1 at (no spam) darkstar>, Eugene Miya <eugene at (no spam) cse.ucsc.edu
writes
In article <VdXRQ+FgQTdIFwBt at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Never mind China. Try the Alps.

Depends on the country.

Partly. The worst developments are in France.

Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners) live
in the valleys.

But still build ski lifts, high level resorts etc.

Lifts and trams are cheaper than funiculars and railways. But the
concentration of populated infrastructure is in the valley floors.
It is much more distributed in the Swiss Alps.

The Swiss live on mountains sides. They have to.
That's all they got. Their trams, funiculars, trains, bridges, tunnels,
and ski lifts are stategic resources. That's access to air defense,
missile batteries, and artillery. Mountains there aren't wilderness;
they are the defense of the country.

& the income, in part. Tourism is big business.

It goes up and down in the top 3 depending on yet.

They have 1 Natl. Park.

One more than Scotland until a few years ago.

Is Scotland sovereign now?

I'll be looking at Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance from
Friedrichshafen, where I'll be wandering round at the huge OutDoor show
seeing gear.

Friedrichshafen just came up in conversation about the history of the
zepplin. So I may visit it next year. The current next best trip for
me to Swiss territory is an invitation on Aug. 1 to the SF Swiss Consulate.

The Swiss Alps and countryside are amazing to wander when you happen to
see their fortification. Actually, I located the the amazing VRML of
the Rapier battery on the summit air defense complex of Davos which is
why Charles skis there as well as why the WEF can be held there.
You have all these tourists wandering around completely clueless in the
photo.

--

My map indicates that Whitney Portal is maybe three miles from Mount
Whitney in a straight line.
I haven't been there, but I thought that you can actually see Mount
Whitney from Whitney Portal.

It's been a while, but there's a couple of places near the Portal where
you can see the summit and upper part of the East Buttress.

Again - I was going by some quick and dirty research.
That's fine.

In article <d7d1655a-b118-4195-a271-020ac8d1b... at (no spam) 59g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,

y_p_w <y_... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
You should have seen what happened when I commented in the SFGate
website on that Outward Bound group that was reported missing and then
made its way to Florence Lake a week ago.  I mapped out the way to get
to the Florence Lake Store from Fresno, and someone else commented
(angrily) that I screwed up because he believed the Florence Lake
Store was on the other side of the lake (from the road) and accessible
only by ferry.  Turns out he'd never been there either, went by what
he recalled from a Chron outdoors article, and other people who had
been there called him out for being wrong.

Some years ago, there was a Finn posting here as a follow up to someone
else about knots.  I had a couple rounds of email with the guy and it
turned out he knew nothing about knots.  He was just trying to be helpful.
And he noted that he thought there was some value in exploring the
not-a-knot space.  He did that off line with me.

This is going to happen more and more given blogs and wikis much less
mailing lists and news groups.  And you will be able to watch some of
this in archives.  S.geo.ocean* had this recurring question which also
happened elsewhere just as the web was getting going about South Pole
time.  Wrong answers come in predictable groups/categories.  The problem
is that "authority" is in and of itself insufficient to know the truth
of an answer.  So in the polar thread, some person IDed as a teacher
comes on to correct "the wrong [right] answer" which BTW, sounds so
arbitrary because it is arbitrary.  And they took issue with my
reinforcing that answer.  To which I noted that I asked friends who had
been there.  Then starting the second paragraph, I noted that I was when
asked by by friends to come with them to the Antarctic.  I never
expected a correction or an apology nor do I think in general should we.
We should reduce the amount of emotion in giving answers.  I get similar
amazed expressions by librarians with whom I work.

I just typed
Whitney Portal into an image search and came up with photos of Mount
Whitney. =A0I guess most of them were taken on the way to Whitney Portal
or where it was just in the picture.

Sawtooth Pk is WSW of Whitney above Mineral King.  I have run over to
from Sawtooth pass, I think coming back from climbing Black Kaweah.





You can't see the summit from road end for 2 different reasons: trees
and local topography.
...
The check is the Star Trek Generations film. =3DA0There's a cut which > >start=3D
s
viewing the Whitney summit (w/o ID) which pans down to a house at
Whitney Portal and then cut inside the house the soon to be dead Capt.
Kirk
is making an omelet when Piccard enters.

Death Valley
It's all Europeans and even now Americans who want to challenge the heat
...
Bad Water

I was there with my folks.  They didn't get out of the car and kept
the engine running with the A/C on.  I pulled out my umbrella to make
it a little more bearable.

What time of day?

We have to sample when the ground is still in the shade of the nearby
cliff.  It's not too bad at that time.  Typically 6-7 AM.

As soon as I got to the Furnace Creek Ranch store, I bought a couple
of Icees.  That felt really good although they started thawing out
rather quickly.

The thing to do is have a date shake.

I can also recommend the Sunday Buffet, more in the normal tourist
season which ends at the end of April.

Lunch is a somewhat common pilot flying destination as their airport is
below sea level (some guy has the flying below sea level record before the
Park became more strict).

190 is rather interesting.  Why go on a roller coaster when you can
get that stomach to your head feeling "riding the waves" at the speed
limit?

190 is in places steeper than it looks.
I had to teach my Italian post doc to drive on that road.  I had to
teach her how to down shift as a way to save one's brakes.  It was like
pulling teeth.

apparently attempted it against their strong recommendations against
it. =A0Don't know if he became vulture food.

On this trip a couple of years ago, I arrived in Bishop without a
reservation (didn't I mention this before?) and was fortunate to fine
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 ??

Typo.  Isn't it obvious?  ;-)

I liked your phrase "vulture food."
One of the other posters uses the phrase "talus meat."

one of the last rooms in town. =A0We probably could have made our way to
Mammoth Lakes, but that would have been pricier.
40 miles, too

and 3K+ ft. elevation gain!

small towns in the middle of nowhere, many of the retail businesses
are run by immigrant families from South Asia and the Middle East.
Must be a real culture shock for them.

They are very adaptable. =A0You mean towns like Paradise? =A0Pine Creek?
Laws? =A0They are also in the Central Valley all over the place.

I've had discussions with my South Asian coworkers through the years.
Apparently families from one region of India who immigrate to the US
have concentrated their efforts in the lodging industry.

Ah!  Like Cornell U.

I had some college classmates who were of American born of Indian
ancestry.  They certainly "got it" when it came to the Simpsons
character Apu Nahasapeemapetilon.

"Come again!"

Yeah, I'm not a Simpsons watcher.  When I here Simpsons I think of the
rule for numeric integration.

King Canyon

There's wasn't all that much to see there unless you go for a short
walk.  But there is a bathroom, and the college kid manning the permit
station didn't mind having someone to talk to.  I came from Yosemite
on that trip, and there was a photo at the permit station of the
crowded Half Dome cables with a caption saying, "Be glad you're not at
Yosemite!"

Did you drive through Bass Lake and North Fork?

There are a couple of small lodges around, and the road end store (I
barely seem to remember this).  More stuff is on the cooler rim like
Hume Lake just outside the Park.

In article <66a6c3d4-de0f-4dff-8b6e-4b02cfdd4... at (no spam) d45g2000hsc.googlegroups..com>,
BTW: You don't have to attribute all text.

What time of day?

About 3 PM in June.

Warm.

August? July?

An umbrella gives also a somewhat truer temperature.  Not that they
considered that.

190 is rather interesting. =A0Why go on a roller coaster when you can

and 3K+ ft. elevation gain!

Elevation didn't really bother me by then.  In the past few weeks we'd
been to Yellowstone, the Colorado Plateau, and the Grand Canyon.  My
lungs were acclimated by then.  I actually felt pretty strong at
Badwater although the heat was something else.

It's a dry heat.

So you were in condition.

There are a couple of small lodges around, and the road end store (I
barely seem to remember this). =A0More stuff is on the cooler rim like
Hume Lake just outside the Park.

I don't think Roads End had any store.  Cedar Grove is the last place
one can buy anything.

I seem to recall some retail.
I also know that just before everything at the entrance to the canyon
relative the road is Boyden cave (private development).

Hume Lake is a strange beast.  That big complex they have at the west
end of the lake is leased to the Hume Lake Christian Camp.  I thought
of getting something to eat there.  Maybe get some gas, but they
didn't have premium unleaded which I need for my WRX.  I saw on a map
that Kings Canyon Lodge (Forest Service land) had gas, but when I got
there it was pricey with a 6 gallon minimum.  Cool glass-vial gravity
feed pumps dating from the 1920's though.  Being the cheap bastard I
am, I didn't get any gas until I got to Fresno (where it was cheaper)
for dinner and supplies.

Yep, yep.  All corresponds to my memory.

Well - I'm about ready to make my summer trip my with better half.  Up
the Pacific NW including Crater Lake, the Olympic Peninsula, and Mt
Rainier.  Of course several days with her family in the Seattle
'burbs.  Still trying to figure out what to do on the way down.
Portland is will likely be in the itinerary.  Maybe not so outdoorsy,
but someone recommended Powell's City of Books.  Then down the coast
to California.  I was thinking of maybe going without a set plan from
a certain point (I did that a couple of years ago with that Death
Valley visit).  At least be near major towns where we can find a place
to stay or maybe pitch our tent.

Powells is good.  Just flew over it.  Powells has multiple locations.
You want to visit the main one, but save time for their travel book store..
Saw the Crater rim.  I am loading up for Alaska yet again, and I've got
one of my other climbing partners coming along, but 5 days ahead of me,
so I have to make certain that he's properly saddled ebfore I go.

Never mind China. Try the Alps.
Depends on the country.
Partly. The worst developments are in France.

Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.

Certainly. But the nature of the developments makes a difference.
France goes for ugly and visible.

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners) live
in the valleys.
The Swiss live on mountains sides. They have to.

Lifts and trams are cheaper than funiculars and railways. But the
concentration of populated infrastructure is in the valley floors.
It is much more distributed in the Swiss Alps.

Yes. The Alps are on the fringes of the other alpine countries.

Is Scotland sovereign now?

No. There's a Scottish National Party government but Scotland is still
part of the UK (in fact there couldn't be a UK without Scotland as the
United Kingdom is the uniting of the crowns of Scotland and England).

I'll be looking at Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance from
Friedrichshafen, where I'll be wandering round at the huge OutDoor show
seeing gear.

Friedrichshafen just came up in conversation about the history of the
zepplin. So I may visit it next year. The current next best trip for
me to Swiss territory is an invitation on Aug. 1 to the SF Swiss Consulate.

I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.

Florence Lake Store

They guy initially told me that I should "do some research before I
put my foot in my mouth." Ironic since I researched quite a bit. I
still didn't get an answer why the guy thought anyone would put a
store at the other end of a lake from a road.

Death Valley
It's all Europeans and even now Americans who want to challenge the he=
at
Bad Water
I was there with my folks. =A0They didn't get out of the car and kept
the engine running with the A/C on. =A0I pulled out my umbrella to make
it a little more bearable.

What time of day?

About 3 PM in June.

190 is rather interesting. =A0Why go on a roller coaster when you can
get that stomach to your head feeling "riding the waves" at the speed
limit?

190 is in places steeper than it looks.

It wasn't that bad I thought. I just didn't care for those areas with
all the peaks and valleys.

apparently attempted it against their strong recommendations against
it. Don't know if he became vulture food.

I used to ride my bike in areas of the East Bay like the Berkeley
Hills or Bear Creek Road. I'd see turkey vultures flying overhead and
I'd sometimes joke with a riding partner that we could end up their
next meal. I've seen 'em everywhere - from where I live in the
Berkeley Hills to the Florida Everglades.

one of the last rooms in town. We probably could have made our way to
Mammoth Lakes, but that would have been pricier.
40 miles, too

and 3K+ ft. elevation gain!

Elevation didn't really bother me by then. In the past few weeks we'd
been to Yellowstone, the Colorado Plateau, and the Grand Canyon. My
lungs were acclimated by then. I actually felt pretty strong at
Badwater although the heat was something else.

Kings Canyon

There's wasn't all that much to see there unless you go for a short
walk. =A0But there is a bathroom, and the college kid manning the permit
station didn't mind having someone to talk to. =A0I came from Yosemite
on that trip, and there was a photo at the permit station of the
crowded Half Dome cables with a caption saying, "Be glad you're not at
Yosemite!"

Did you drive through Bass Lake and North Fork?

There are a couple of small lodges around, and the road end store (I
barely seem to remember this). =A0More stuff is on the cooler rim like
Hume Lake just outside the Park.

I don't think Roads End had any store. Cedar Grove is the last place
one can buy anything.

Hume Lake is a strange beast. That big complex they have at the west
end of the lake is leased to the Hume Lake Christian Camp. I thought
of getting something to eat there. Maybe get some gas, but they
didn't have premium unleaded which I need for my WRX. I saw on a map
that Kings Canyon Lodge (Forest Service land) had gas, but when I got
there it was pricey with a 6 gallon minimum. Cool glass-vial gravity
feed pumps dating from the 1920's though. Being the cheap bastard I
am, I didn't get any gas until I got to Fresno (where it was cheaper)
for dinner and supplies.

Well - I'm about ready to make my summer trip my with better half. Up
the Pacific NW including Crater Lake, the Olympic Peninsula, and Mt
Rainier. Of course several days with her family in the Seattle
'burbs. Still trying to figure out what to do on the way down.
Portland is will likely be in the itinerary. Maybe not so outdoorsy,
but someone recommended Powell's City of Books. Then down the coast
to California. I was thinking of maybe going without a set plan from
a certain point (I did that a couple of years ago with that Death
Valley visit). At least be near major towns where we can find a place
to stay or maybe pitch our tent.

In article <Ds0EsqNiDAeIFwJy at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Never mind China. Try the Alps.
Depends on the country.
Partly. The worst developments are in France.

Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.

Certainly. But the nature of the developments makes a difference.
France goes for ugly and visible.

This is the day-glo fluorscent thread from years back of which maybe Hal
is among the last survivors.

The Italian winter Olympic site, Sistrere?, I don't have a book handy.
Wikipedia has some value: Sestriere, has the same claim made about it.
Modern cylindrical hotel building, etc. I can think of various other
Italian resorts, then Austrian, then Swiss, and then German. So wat
does Vail do? They attempt to mimic portions of old world style European
resorts, badly. Cold War bomb shelter era archiecture and construction?
Well, we get avalanches, too and so the US built Snowbird and Iron Blossom.
The Italians (and French and Swiss) has Breuil/Cervina (the less famous side
of the Matterhorn).
Over arching all in the USA is Dizzyland and Dizzyworld. Similarly an
older generation looked at the UK and head rock and roll music and
considered it ugly noise. Ugly and visible are like grunge and goth.
They are just trying to vie for attention like the Beatles. The French
are very much shaped by their neighbors the English (among others).
I'd cut them a break.

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners) live
in the valleys.
The Swiss live on mountains sides. They have to.

Lifts and trams are cheaper than funiculars and railways. But the
concentration of populated infrastructure is in the valley floors.
It is much more distributed in the Swiss Alps.

Yes. The Alps are on the fringes of the other alpine countries.

Yeah, the first time I went to the Alps, I was going for the Alps, the
geography, not specific countries. I appreciate the French, but slant
a preference toward the French Swiss, especially biased since I work with many,
and they are justly proud of their country (they apologize for the German
and Italian parts of their country {they don't have to, I like the
German parts of their country the Italian and Romansch I am touring,
I have to visit a friend's new institute in Landquart}).

I'm also aware that these names we use are modern names and these all
used to be hundreds of fiefdoms.

Is Scotland sovereign now?

No. There's a Scottish National Party government but Scotland is still
part of the UK (in fact there couldn't be a UK without Scotland as the
United Kingdom is the uniting of the crowns of Scotland and England).

Wales knows this? ;^)

I'll be looking at Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance from
Friedrichshafen, where I'll be wandering round at the huge OutDoor show
seeing gear.

Friedrichshafen just came up in conversation about the history of the
zepplin. So I may visit it next year. The current next best trip for
me to Swiss territory is an invitation on Aug. 1 to the SF Swiss Consulate.

I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.

I am slightly jealous. Next year. It will have to compete for my time
as I have to get to the chocolate factory near Gruyere (Broc).

Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....

BTW: You don't have to attribute all text.

Bad habit. I also don't want to mess with context if possible.

Warm.

An umbrella gives also a somewhat truer temperature. Not that they
considered that.

On the way there I'd been watching TV from a motel room. Saw a report
on the Weather Channel where the reporter was at Badwater when it was
126 deg F. That was about how hot it was when I was there. I've got
a photo of the thermometer at the Furnace Creek Visitor Center where
it's 123 deg F.

190 is rather interesting. Why go on a roller coaster when you can
and 3K+ ft. elevation gain!

Elevation didn't really bother me by then. =A0In the past few weeks we'd
been to Yellowstone, the Colorado Plateau, and the Grand Canyon. =A0My
lungs were acclimated by then. =A0I actually felt pretty strong at
Badwater although the heat was something else.

It's a dry heat.

So you were in condition.

I don't know how in shape I'll be for Rainier.

Hume Lake
Cedar Grove

Boyden cave

I've been to Boyden several times. It's about a good 25 miles west of
Cedar Grove.

Hume Lake Christian Camp.
Kings Canyon Lodge
there it was pricey with a 6 gallon minimum. =A0Cool glass-vial gravity
feed pumps dating from the 1920's though. =A0Being the cheap bastard I
am, I didn't get any gas until I got to Fresno (where it was cheaper)
for dinner and supplies.

My problem with gas was that I was down to fumes by the time I got to
Fresno.

Well - I'm about ready to make my summer trip my with better half. =A0Up
the Pacific NW including Crater Lake, the Olympic Peninsula, and Mt
Rainier. =A0Of course several days with her family in the Seattle
'burbs. =A0Still trying to figure out what to do on the way down.
Portland is will likely be in the itinerary. =A0Maybe not so outdoorsy,
but someone recommended Powell's City of Books. =A0Then down the coast
to California. =A0I was thinking of maybe going without a set plan from
a certain point (I did that a couple of years ago with that Death
Valley visit). =A0At least be near major towns where we can find a place
to stay or maybe pitch our tent.

Powells is good. =A0Just flew over it. =A0Powells has multiple locations.
You want to visit the main one, but save time for their travel book store=
.
Saw the Crater rim. =A0I am loading up for Alaska yet again, and I've got
one of my other climbing partners coming along, but 5 days ahead of me,
so I have to make certain that he's properly saddled ebfore I go.

Will be thinking of the group. Maybe even post on the road. Several
places I'm staying have internet access and I'll be bringing the 'ol
iBook along.

Never mind China. Try the Alps.
Depends on the country.
Partly. The worst developments are in France.
Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.
Certainly. But the nature of the developments makes a difference.
France goes for ugly and visible.
This is the day-glo fluorscent thread from years back of which maybe Hal
is among the last survivors.
The Italian winter Olympic site, Sestriere,
....
Over arching all in the USA is Dizzyland and Dizzyworld.
older generation looked at the UK and heard rock and roll music and
considered it ugly noise. Ugly and visible are like grunge and goth.
They are just trying to vie for attention like the Beatles. The French
are very much shaped by their neighbors the English (among others).
I'd cut them a break.

I must admit I've never been to any Italian ski resorts. Of the resorts
I have seen the concrete blockhouse French ones are the worst, pretty
Austrian traditional chalet types the least nasty. I don't really like
any of them, which is one reason I don't ski at downhill resorts, and
there are far too many in the Alps.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners)
The Swiss
the Alps
and they are justly proud of their country (they apologize for the German
and Italian parts of their country {they don't have to, I like the
German parts of their country the Italian and Romansch I am touring,
I have to visit a friend's new institute in Landquart}).

I'm also aware that these names we use are modern names and these all
used to be hundreds of fiefdoms.

Tourists, including mountaineers, created the modern Alps to a great
extent. Fergus Fleming's Killing Dragons:The Conquest of the Alps is an
entertaining version of the story.

Is Scotland sovereign now?

No. There's a Scottish National Party government but Scotland is still
part of the UK (in fact there couldn't be a UK without Scotland as the
United Kingdom is the uniting of the crowns of Scotland and England).
Wales knows this? ;^)

Wales does know this Wales was conquered by England in 1284 and by
the mid 1500s all its laws and legislation had gone and it was run from
London. Scotland wasn't conquered, it united with England, firstly when
King James VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England (becoming
James 1 there), and then in 1707 when the two parliaments where united.
Scotland kept it's own legal and education system.

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.

I'll be looking at Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance from
Friedrichshafen, where I'll be wandering round at the huge OutDoor show
seeing gear.
Friedrichshafen just came up in conversation about the history of the
zepplin. So I may visit it next year.

I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.

I am slightly jealous. Next year. It will have to compete for my time
as I have to get to the chocolate factory near Gruyere (Broc).

Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....

In article <E6FE5bL3D7eIFw5p at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Never mind China. Try the Alps.
Depends on the country.
Partly. The worst developments are in France.
Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.
Certainly. But the nature of the developments makes a difference.
France goes for ugly and visible.
This is the day-glo fluorscent thread from years back of which maybe Hal
is among the last survivors.
The Italian winter Olympic site, Sestriere,
...
Over arching all in the USA is Dizzyland and Dizzyworld.
older generation looked at the UK and heard rock and roll music and
considered it ugly noise. Ugly and visible are like grunge and goth.
They are just trying to vie for attention like the Beatles. The French
are very much shaped by their neighbors the English (among others).
I'd cut them a break.

I must admit I've never been to any Italian ski resorts. Of the resorts
I have seen the concrete blockhouse French ones are the worst, pretty
Austrian traditional chalet types the least nasty. I don't really like
any of them, which is one reason I don't ski at downhill resorts, and
there are far too many in the Alps.

Above Innsbruck, there stands a ski jump. It's left over from the
Olympic games. Calgary has one, too, but it's more outside the mtns.

I doubt the issue is purely downhill ski resorts, they are merely
the most visible examples.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!

I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.

The French interacting with
Spaniards, Italians, and Swiss (especially French speaking) all have
"romance" languages. They are clearly a little more weary of their
German neighbors, but they seem to realize for the future of Europe,
they have to get along.

They are clearly having a harder time with
Africans.

And they are not certain what to make of us Asians, but they
figure their education tells them that 1.5 billion Chinese are a force
to recon with. They know that like other elementary school exercises it
would be good idea to get a few basic Chinese phrases down, count to
ten, etc. Usually in Mandarin.

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners)
The Swiss
the Alps
and they are justly proud of their country (they apologize for the German
and Italian parts of their country {they don't have to, I like the
German parts of their country the Italian and Romansch I am touring,
I have to visit a friend's new institute in Landquart}).

I'm also aware that these names we use are modern names and these all
used to be hundreds of fiefdoms.

The future of cultural mapping will be interesting.

Tourists, including mountaineers, created the modern Alps to a great
extent. Fergus Fleming's Killing Dragons:The Conquest of the Alps is an
entertaining version of the story.

Well Whymper did his part with the Matterhorn.

Thomas Cook did his part
for St. Moritz.

Arnold Lund did his part for ski racing (that that I
have any interest in skiing the Inferno or taking the tobaggan on the
Gresta run).

But others deserve credit from the philosophers like Rousseau and Ruskin.
Piccard and Balmat. I used to read about all that stuff.

I should go
visit Voltaire's house, but I'd rather perhaps visit a chocolate factory.

This year vacation is Norway and Iceland.

Is Scotland sovereign now?

No. There's a Scottish National Party government but Scotland is still
part of the UK (in fact there couldn't be a UK without Scotland as the
United Kingdom is the uniting of the crowns of Scotland and England).
Wales knows this? ;^)

Wales does know this Wales was conquered by England in 1284 and by
the mid 1500s all its laws and legislation had gone and it was run from
London. Scotland wasn't conquered, it united with England, firstly when
King James VI of Scotland inherited the throne of England (becoming
James 1 there), and then in 1707 when the two parliaments where united.
Scotland kept it's own legal and education system.

Speaking of conquest: I just caught the tail end of the Treat Williams
remake of Journey to the Center of the Earth which apparently used NZ
for their descent. I will go see the current remake some time for the 3-D.

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.

I was wondering. That's why I baited it. Who knows when I'll get to
the UK again next.

I'll be looking at Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance from
Friedrichshafen, where I'll be wandering round at the huge OutDoor show
seeing gear.
Friedrichshafen just came up in conversation about the history of the
zepplin. So I may visit it next year.

I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.

I am slightly jealous. Next year. It will have to compete for my time
as I have to get to the chocolate factory near Gruyere (Broc).

Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....

Hmmm. Tough choice.

Do both. Go visit Lindt.

The zeppelins are walking distance from the tipis where I'll be staying

In article <66a6c3d4-de0f-4dff-8b6e-4b02cfdd4... at (no spam) d45g2000hsc.googlegroups..com>,
I don't think Roads End had any store.  Cedar Grove is the last place
one can buy anything.

I seem to recall some retail.
I also know that just before everything at the entrance to the canyon
relative the road is Boyden cave (private development).

Never mind China. Try the Alps.
Depends on the country.
Partly. The worst developments are in France.
Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.
France goes for ugly and visible.
This is the day-glo fluorscent thread from years back of which maybe Hal
is among the last survivors.
The Italian winter Olympic site, Sestriere,
Over arching all in the USA is Dizzyland and Dizzyworld.
older generation looked at the UK and heard rock and roll music and
considered it ugly noise. Ugly and visible are like grunge and goth.
They are just trying to vie for attention like the Beatles. The French
are very much shaped by their neighbors the English (among others).
I'd cut them a break.
I must admit I've never been to any Italian ski resorts. Of the resorts
I have seen the concrete blockhouse French ones are the worst,
They are that way for avalanches.
pretty Austrian traditional chalet types the least nasty. I don't really
like any of them, which is one reason I don't ski at downhill resorts, and
there are far too many in the Alps.

Above Innsbruck, there stands a ski jump. It's left over from the
Olympic games. Calgary has one, too, but it's more outside the mtns.

The most impressive I've seen is the Holmenkollen ski jump in Oslo. You
can stand at the top and look down at the postage stamp size landing
area and the tiny looking arena where the spectators sit. Ski jumping
competitions started here in 1892. The jump was used for the 1952 winter
Olympics.

I doubt the issue is purely downhill ski resorts, they are merely
the most visible examples.

Mass tourism in general. Industrial tourism Abbey called it.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!

I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.

Tourists are often tolerated. The English abroad can be embarrassing. I
went on my first trip to France as a schoolboy. I remember standing at a
train buffet and watching the English woman in front raising her voice
when the attendant didn't understand her. Eventually she just held out a
handful of money and said "just take what you want, it's not real money
anyway". The guy carefully sorted out the right amount and she stormed
off while he grinned and rolled his eyes at me. I was glad my French was
passable (it's much more rusty now).

The French interacting with
Spaniards, Italians, and Swiss (especially French speaking) all have
"romance" languages. They are clearly a little more weary of their
German neighbors, but they seem to realize for the future of Europe,
they have to get along.

It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Switzerland of course is not in the EU.

They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.

The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some of whom are
African of course.

Asians,
Chinese
They know that like other elementary school exercises it
would be good idea to get a few basic Chinese phrases down, count to
ten, etc. Usually in Mandarin.

Are they doing it though? They're certainly not in Britain. Here
learning even French and German are in decline. We are becoming more
insular.

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners)
The Swiss
I'm also aware that these names we use are modern names and these all
used to be hundreds of fiefdoms.

The future of cultural mapping will be interesting.

It always is. Europe has changed greatly the last few decades. Here in
oh yes
Scotland there is now concern because many of the Poles are going home
because wages have risen in Poland and prices have risen in Scotland so
working here isn't so attractive.

Tourists, including mountaineers, created the modern Alps to a great
extent. Fergus Fleming's Killing Dragons:The Conquest of the Alps is an
entertaining version of the story.

Well Whymper did his part with the Matterhorn.

That's in the Fleming book, late on. The dragons were all gone by then.

Thomas Cook did his part for St. Moritz.

The inventor of package tourism. The company is still going.

Arnold Lund did his part for ski racing (not that I
have any interest in skiing the Inferno or taking the tobaggan on the
Gresta run).

Arguably the inventor of modern ski racing.

But others deserve credit from the philosophers like Rousseau and Ruskin.
Piccard and Balmat. I used to read about all that stuff.

I still do. Fleming covers Piccard and Balmat. Rousseau and Ruskin turn
up all over the place. Mind you, I'm in the Grand Canyon not the Alps at
present, reading Harvey Butchart's biography.

I should go
visit Voltaire's house, but I'd rather perhaps visit a chocolate factory.

Now it's chocolate or Voltaire.

This year vacation is Norway and Iceland.

Great countries. I'd like to get back to both.

Is Scotland sovereign now?
No. There's a Scottish National Party government but Scotland is still
....
Wales knows this? ;^)
Wales does know this Wales was conquered by England in 1284 and by
....
Scotland wasn't conquered, it united with England, firstly when
....
Speaking of conquest: I just caught the tail end of the Treat Williams
remake of Journey to the Center of the Earth which apparently used NZ
for their descent. I will go see the current remake some time for the 3-D.

It does sound interesting. I remember seeing one of the old versions
years ago.

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.

I was wondering. That's why I baited it. Who knows when I'll get to
the UK again next.

And will it still be the UK.

I'll be looking at Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance from
Friedrichshafen, where I'll be wandering round at the huge OutDoor show
seeing gear.
Friedrichshafen just came up in conversation about the history of the
zepplin. So I may visit it next year.
I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.
I am slightly jealous. Next year. It will have to compete for my time

Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....
Hmmm. Tough choice.

Do both. Go visit Lindt.

The zeppelins are walking distance from the tipis where I'll be staying
so I guess that's where I'll go.

Most of my time there will be work.

In article <L4+nJdVbt+eIFwpn at (no spam) auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Chris at (no spam) DELETE.auchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Never mind China. Try the Alps.
Depends on the country.
Partly. The worst developments are in France.
Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.
France goes for ugly and visible.
This is the day-glo fluorscent thread from years back of which maybe Hal
is among the last survivors.
The Italian winter Olympic site, Sestriere,
Over arching all in the USA is Dizzyland and Dizzyworld.
older generation looked at the UK and heard rock and roll music and
considered it ugly noise. Ugly and visible are like grunge and goth.
They are just trying to vie for attention like the Beatles. The French
are very much shaped by their neighbors the English (among others).
I'd cut them a break.
I must admit I've never been to any Italian ski resorts. Of the resorts
I have seen the concrete blockhouse French ones are the worst,
They are that way for avalanches.
pretty Austrian traditional chalet types the least nasty. I don't really
like any of them, which is one reason I don't ski at downhill resorts, and
there are far too many in the Alps.

Above Innsbruck, there stands a ski jump. It's left over from the
Olympic games. Calgary has one, too, but it's more outside the mtns.

The most impressive I've seen is the Holmenkollen ski jump in Oslo. You
can stand at the top and look down at the postage stamp size landing
area and the tiny looking arena where the spectators sit. Ski jumping
competitions started here in 1892. The jump was used for the 1952 winter
Olympics.

We used to have one at Squaw Valley. The hill side was used to make it cheap.
Sometime, I am not certain when, jumps got separated from hillsides (I
think after Sapphro which may have been 72). Jumps because towers.
But hill sides blended in. Jumps appear impressive, because cameras face
in and a viewer can't tell how steep they are. The training and the
reality which few people see is that the ground slopes and falls away
but the local altitude isn't very far. If you land, you merely slide.

A small number of skiers really jump. At Squaw the Broccoli people
hired Rick Sylvester to ski off Thor on Baffin Island, and that was I
think Thunderball's intro complete with Union jack (007 gets chased by
bad guys with machine guns on skis [looks fun] and Bond skis off a cliff
with a parachute Brit flag). Also locally there's guys who ski off 100
ft. cliffs w/o parachutes. One got killed recently. That's all
independent of speed skiers like the McKinneys who go over 200 KPH.

I will look for the one in Oslo in Oct. Fram first, then Kontiki,
Amundsen's NW passage boats, friends want me to see the sculpture garden
(Viggland's)

I doubt the issue is purely downhill ski resorts, they are merely
the most visible examples.

Mass tourism in general. Industrial tourism Abbey called it.

There's several dynamics there.

Industry is looking for economies of scale.
That's sort of what industry is for. As well as create employment.

Then there are the tourists themselves.
The video game short attention span generation doesn't always get the
outdoors. The same kind of culture which hooks people on alcohol and
cigarettes and drugs also fools many into presuming beauty is Yosemite
or on the ultra-high end, the ultimate of adventure tourism: Antarctica
(or if you are a billionaire, space travel {note: I did send one such
friend in said latter category a good wishes note}). People expect
weird things.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!

I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.

Tourists are often tolerated. The English abroad can be embarrassing. I
went on my first trip to France as a schoolboy. I remember standing at a
train buffet and watching the English woman in front raising her voice
when the attendant didn't understand her. Eventually she just held out a
handful of money and said "just take what you want, it's not real money
anyway". The guy carefully sorted out the right amount and she stormed
off while he grinned and rolled his eyes at me. I was glad my French was
passable (it's much more rusty now).

One English climbing partner here has a French girlfriend whom I've run
into of late more than him (I also happen to work with his ex-girlfriend
before her as well as that woman's husband (lurkers)).

I've watched people merely hold out change to pay. I didn't experience
the problem myself until about 10 years ago. I, like most early
tourists, might be a bit slow recognizing and counting unfamiliar
denominations. This stunt was shown on a recent American WWII
miniseries when one character collected laundry. However the English
laundress asked if the character could take back all his colleagues
laundry as well (all of whom where dead: which is how US surplus stores
got populated with gear post-WWII for decades).

In French tourist areas, after the initial Bonjour or Bonsoir I would
offer the retailer: (PV) English or Japanese? And that takes them aback.
So they appreciate knowing English, they just simple don't want to deal
with non-European languages.

The French interacting with
Spaniards, Italians, and Swiss (especially French speaking) all have
"romance" languages. They are clearly a little more weary of their
German neighbors, but they seem to realize for the future of Europe,
they have to get along.

It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Switzerland of course is not in the EU.

Nor Norway nor Iceland. I think it's more than just the Franco-German
alliance.

I think the Spanish and Portuguese have a good hand and bringing the
Italians in. I was just on the phone to DC about this. I'm asked to
pay a courtesy call for my govt. to Italy next year (Pisa for work).
This means I have to take a nice shirt and maybe a coat alog with the
ski gear.

They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.

The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some of whom are
African of course.

Yeah sort of like Latin Americans in California. I watched this
interation within the Iberian peninsula and a note the Swiss President
(at that time) to his people on this. France is also having a tough
time coming to grips. If a sea can't stop immigration, a wall won't either.

Asians,
Chinese
They know that like other elementary school exercises it
would be good idea to get a few basic Chinese phrases down, count to
ten, etc. Usually in Mandarin.

Are they doing it though? They're certainly not in Britain. Here
learning even French and German are in decline. We are becoming more
insular.

I looked into an elementary school in France.
In the young ages before the kids get jaded, it's like uno, dos, tres,
quatro... here in the USA. Ichi, ni, san, si, go... Ein, svi, drei,...
Yes? No? Good morning. Good bye.

The Italians, Germans, French, and Austrians (and Lichtensteiners)
The Swiss
I'm also aware that these names we use are modern names and these all
used to be hundreds of fiefdoms.

The future of cultural mapping will be interesting.

It always is. Europe has changed greatly the last few decades. Here in
oh yes
Scotland there is now concern because many of the Poles are going home
because wages have risen in Poland and prices have risen in Scotland so
working here isn't so attractive.

Here and Ireland as well.

The metric we watch is foreign student grad enrollment.

Tourists, including mountaineers, created the modern Alps to a great
extent. Fergus Fleming's Killing Dragons:The Conquest of the Alps is an
entertaining version of the story.

Well Whymper did his part with the Matterhorn.

That's in the Fleming book, late on. The dragons were all gone by then.

The Matterhorn was the last of the 1st generation dragons.

Thomas Cook did his part for St. Moritz.

The inventor of package tourism. The company is still going.

Yes, invest in money exchange.

Arnold Lund did his part for ski racing (not that I
have any interest in skiing the Inferno or taking the tobaggan on the
Gresta run).

Arguably the inventor of modern ski racing.

Yes.
I had some homework.
He likely has skeletons in his closet.

But others deserve credit from the philosophers like Rousseau and Ruskin.
Piccard and Balmat. I used to read about all that stuff.

I still do. Fleming covers Piccard and Balmat. Rousseau and Ruskin turn
up all over the place. Mind you, I'm in the Grand Canyon not the Alps at
present, reading Harvey Butchart's biography.

You can get paid for it. I enjoyed Chamonix for their statues. They
name their streets after alpinists. I think of how few tourists who
visit Rue due Lionel Terray have any idea whom he was. Harvey's
biographer was just here in his area. I like Flagstaff. Some of
Harvey's math is more interesting to me than his GC stuff. That was his
entertainment.

I should go
visit Voltaire's house, but I'd rather perhaps visit a chocolate factory.

Now it's chocolate or Voltaire.

Almost the same canton. That's definitely an And not an Or.

This year vacation is Norway and Iceland.

Great countries. I'd like to get back to both.

Mostly the ferry this trip.
Have to watch the new Journey to the Center of the Earth. 3-D.

Is Scotland sovereign now?
No. There's a Scottish National Party government but Scotland is still
...
Wales knows this? ;^)
Wales does know this Wales was conquered by England in 1284 and by
...
Scotland wasn't conquered, it united with England, firstly when
...
Speaking of conquest: I just caught the tail end of the Treat Williams
remake of Journey to the Center of the Earth which apparently used NZ
for their descent. I will go see the current remake some time for the 3-D.

It does sound interesting. I remember seeing one of the old versions
years ago.

We were just talking about this at lunch (James Mason version).
I prefer the Yes Rick Wakeman music.

Wales now has an Assembly but it doesn't have the same power as the
Scottish Parliament.

I was wondering. That's why I baited it. Who knows when I'll get to
the UK again next.

And will it still be the UK.

THE SUN NEVER SETS ON ...

Are you supposed to stand at attention, face London and sing some hymn
like song?

I'll be looking at Switzerland next week. Across Lake Constance from
Friedrichshafen, where I'll be wandering round at the huge OutDoor show
seeing gear.
Friedrichshafen just came up in conversation about the history of the
zepplin. So I may visit it next year.
I have a spare day this year and plan on visiting the zeppelin museum.
I am slightly jealous. Next year. It will have to compete for my time

Chocolate or zeppelins? Hm.....
Hmmm. Tough choice.

Do both. Go visit Lindt.

The zeppelins are walking distance from the tipis where I'll be staying
so I guess that's where I'll go.

Most of my time there will be work.

Eh, that's the rub.

Aye, but at least I get there.

It's somewhat oddly reassuring that kind of uniformity wherever
you go, like that familiar NPS white on brown signage. Or those

Never mind China. Try the Alps.
Partly. The worst developments are in France.
Yeah, I have heard that argument. Italy isn't far behind.
We have to face the fact that Europe is developed.
France goes for ugly and visible.
This is the day-glo fluorscent thread from years back
The Italian winter Olympic site, Sestriere,
Over arching all in the USA is Dizzyland and Dizzyworld.
older generation looked at the UK and heard rock and roll music and
considered it ugly noise. Ugly and visible are like grunge and goth.
They are just trying to vie for attention like the Beatles. The French
are very much shaped by their neighbors the English (among others).
I'd cut them a break.
I must admit I've never been to any Italian ski resorts. Of the resorts
I have seen the concrete blockhouse French ones are the worst,
They are that way for avalanches.
pretty Austrian traditional chalet types the least nasty. I don't really
like any of them, which is one reason I don't ski at downhill resorts, and
there are far too many in the Alps.
Above Innsbruck, there stands a ski jump. It's left over from the
The most impressive I've seen is the Holmenkollen ski jump in Oslo. You
We used to have one at Squaw Valley. The hill side was used to make it cheap.
Sometime, I am not certain when, jumps got separated from hillsides (I
think after Sapphro which may have been 72). Jumps became towers.
But hill sides blended in. Jumps appear impressive, because cameras face
in and a viewer can't tell how steep they are. The training and the
reality which few people see is that the ground slopes and falls away
but the local altitude isn't very far. If you land, you merely slide.

Maybe so. Looking down the Holmenkollen jump it looked pretty
terrifying. Just the run down to the actual jump is very steep. The top
of the jump is 50 metres high.

A small number of skiers really jump. At Squaw the Broccoli people
hired Rick Sylvester to ski off Thor on Baffin Island, and that was I
think Thunderball's intro complete with Union jack (007 gets chased by
bad guys with machine guns on skis [looks fun] and Bond skis off a cliff
with a parachute Brit flag). Also locally there's guys who ski off 100
ft. cliffs w/o parachutes. One got killed recently. That's all
independent of speed skiers like the McKinneys who go over 200 KPH.

I think there's plenty of people doing similar things in Norway. Ski
jumping started in Norway using the roofs of houses and barns,
apparently.

I will look for the one in Oslo in Oct. Fram first, then Kontiki,
Amundsen's NW passage boats, friends want me to see the sculpture garden
(Viggland's)

Fram is great. I was surprised at the size.

I doubt the issue is purely downhill ski resorts, they are merely
the most visible examples.
Mass tourism in general. Industrial tourism Abbey called it.
There's several dynamics there.
Industry is looking for economies of scale.
That's sort of what industry is for. As well as create employment.

Marketing comes into it too. Easy to market masses of people having fun,
whether on a beach or a ski slope. Hard to market wilderness hiking or
climbing.

Then there are the tourists themselves.
The video game short attention span generation doesn't always get the
outdoors. The same kind of culture which hooks people on alcohol and
cigarettes and drugs also fools many into presuming beauty is Yosemite
or on the ultra-high end, the ultimate of adventure tourism: Antarctica
(or if you are a billionaire, space travel {note: I did send one such
friend in said latter category a good wishes note}). People expect
weird things.

People come to the Highlands and say it's for the landscape but then say
there's not enough to do.

I think the French would find the suggestion that are shaped by their
neighbours, especially the English, far more offensive than the idea
that their ski resorts were ugly!
I've watched Brits and French interact. The French react to almost all
pure English speakers in the same way: they bear it, because they know
where their Francs and now Euros come.
Tourists are often tolerated. The English abroad can be embarrassing. I

One English climbing partner here has a French girlfriend whom I've run
into of late more than him (I also happen to work with his ex-girlfriend
before her as well as that woman's husband (lurkers)).

I have British friends who live in France. There's more interaction than
many people outside the two countries think.

I've watched people merely hold out change to pay.
....
laundry as well (all of whom where dead: which is how US surplus stores
got populated with gear post-WWII for decades).

And UK surplus stores - where I bought much of my first gear.

In French tourist areas, after the initial Bonjour or Bonsoir I would
offer the retailer: (PV) English or Japanese? And that takes them aback.
So they appreciate knowing English, they just simple don't want to deal
with non-European languages.

Don't know how to deal with it, I suspect. English - through American TV
and films rather than anything from Britain - is now common throughout
Europe.

The French interacting with
Spaniards, Italians, and Swiss (especially French speaking) all have
"romance" languages. They are clearly a little more weary of their
German neighbors, but they seem to realize for the future of Europe,
they have to get along.
It's the Franco-German alliance that drives the European Union.
Switzerland of course is not in the EU.
Nor Norway nor Iceland. I think it's more than just the Franco-German
alliance.

Of course others have influence but I think France and Germany are the
core.

I think the Spanish and Portuguese have a good hand and bringing the
.....
They are clearly having a harder time with Africans.
The main concern these days seems to be with Muslims, some