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| benlizross |
 Posted: Sat Apr 23, 2005 4:05 pm |
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From a _Guardian_ story by Robert Tait about skiing in Iran:
"Skiing in Iran dates back to 2000BC, when ancient tribes are believed
to have devised a ski board made from animal hide. Linguists associate
the word ski with the Aryan language, from which Farsi is derived."
The second sentence is so nonsensical, it makes me wonder whether there
is any basis at all for the first. The two together sound like part of
someone's desperate attempt to establish an Iranian pedigree for skiing
so that ideologues could not stigmatize it as "foreign" or "Western".
Of course Tait goes on to note that "modern skiing" was introduced in
the 1930s by Germans...
Ross Clark |
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| Martyn Harrison |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:16 am |
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Guest
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Apparently on date Sun, 24 Apr 2005 10:05:13 +1200, benlizross
<benlizro@ihug.co.nz> said:
[quote:1ce536cc6e]From a _Guardian_ story by Robert Tait about skiing in Iran:
"Skiing in Iran dates back to 2000BC, when ancient tribes are believed
to have devised a ski board made from animal hide. Linguists associate
the word ski with the Aryan language, from which Farsi is derived."
The second sentence is so nonsensical, it makes me wonder whether there
is any basis at all for the first. The two together sound like part of
someone's desperate attempt to establish an Iranian pedigree for skiing
so that ideologues could not stigmatize it as "foreign" or "Western".
Of course Tait goes on to note that "modern skiing" was introduced in
the 1930s by Germans...
[/quote:1ce536cc6e]
Was there ever a time that sapiens didn't skate about on ice, then? |
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| benlizross |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:46 am |
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Martyn Harrison wrote:
[quote:ff938ea636]
Apparently on date Sun, 24 Apr 2005 10:05:13 +1200, benlizross
benlizro@ihug.co.nz> said:
From a _Guardian_ story by Robert Tait about skiing in Iran:
"Skiing in Iran dates back to 2000BC, when ancient tribes are believed
to have devised a ski board made from animal hide. Linguists associate
the word ski with the Aryan language, from which Farsi is derived."
The second sentence is so nonsensical, it makes me wonder whether there
is any basis at all for the first. The two together sound like part of
someone's desperate attempt to establish an Iranian pedigree for skiing
so that ideologues could not stigmatize it as "foreign" or "Western".
Of course Tait goes on to note that "modern skiing" was introduced in
the 1930s by Germans...
Was there ever a time that sapiens didn't skate about on ice, then?
[/quote:ff938ea636]
Dunno. To me it still doesn't seem like a normal sapient activity. And
skating ain't skiing. Nor, for that matter, is sliding on a "ski board
made from animal hide". That might be a toboggan, or at best a
snowboard, but not a ski. And snowshoeing is something different again.
What we know about the ancient history of any of these activities (as
means of travel or as recreation) is what I'm trying to get at.
Ross Clark |
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| Martyn Harrison |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:34 pm |
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Apparently on date Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:46:24 +1200, benlizross
<benlizro@ihug.co.nz> said:
[quote:6fee20bd70]Martyn Harrison wrote:
Apparently on date Sun, 24 Apr 2005 10:05:13 +1200, benlizross
benlizro@ihug.co.nz> said:
From a _Guardian_ story by Robert Tait about skiing in Iran:
"Skiing in Iran dates back to 2000BC, when ancient tribes are believed
to have devised a ski board made from animal hide. Linguists associate
the word ski with the Aryan language, from which Farsi is derived."
The second sentence is so nonsensical, it makes me wonder whether there
is any basis at all for the first. The two together sound like part of
someone's desperate attempt to establish an Iranian pedigree for skiing
so that ideologues could not stigmatize it as "foreign" or "Western".
Of course Tait goes on to note that "modern skiing" was introduced in
the 1930s by Germans...
Was there ever a time that sapiens didn't skate about on ice, then?
Dunno. To me it still doesn't seem like a normal sapient activity. And
skating ain't skiing. Nor, for that matter, is sliding on a "ski board
made from animal hide". That might be a toboggan, or at best a
snowboard, but not a ski. And snowshoeing is something different again.
What we know about the ancient history of any of these activities (as
means of travel or as recreation) is what I'm trying to get at.
[/quote:6fee20bd70]
Well, seems to me that when there was ice of a winter, as a child I was, like
my peers, sliding about on it and using things like sledges, skates and
similar.
Anywhere that there was ice and snow for any length of time, would involve the
development of ways of exploiting the snow and ice. 2000 BC seems to me to be
far too recent for the invention of practical skis, I'd say they were in use
ten times as long ago and probably more. They're like spears, IME, simple
evolutionary tools. |
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| Mike |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 12:35 pm |
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"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:426B9520.6ED@ihug.co.nz...
[quote:3cee1d0baa]Dunno. To me it still doesn't seem like a normal sapient activity. And
skating ain't skiing. Nor, for that matter, is sliding on a "ski board
made from animal hide". That might be a toboggan, or at best a
snowboard, but not a ski. And snowshoeing is something different again.
What we know about the ancient history of any of these activities (as
means of travel or as recreation) is what I'm trying to get at.
Ross Clark
[/quote:3cee1d0baa]
Of course, there are mountains in Iran, a place where I have sometimes
dreamed of skiing. OED says it is from Old Norse Skid, a billet of cleft
wood. Earliest English example, 1755 Monthly Review XII 451 "He says they
have skies, or long and thin pieces of board, so smooth, that the peasants
wade through the snow with them."
There was a discussion on the word skidaddle on this ng (qv). I would be
interested if there were any earlier reference to this activity. Iranian
skiing would be for sport since the decreasing likelihood of mountain travel
there. |
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| I.E_Johansson |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:24 pm |
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"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000 år. De mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man hittat är från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000 years. The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii found is from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if the later date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second oldest found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is older than the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii model. Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
"Mike" <bakerdivert@lava.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:116nprvgl50mvee@corp.supernews.com...
[quote:edfb5806df]
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:426B9520.6ED@ihug.co.nz...
Dunno. To me it still doesn't seem like a normal sapient activity. And
skating ain't skiing. Nor, for that matter, is sliding on a "ski board
made from animal hide". That might be a toboggan, or at best a
snowboard, but not a ski. And snowshoeing is something different again.
What we know about the ancient history of any of these activities (as
means of travel or as recreation) is what I'm trying to get at.
Ross Clark
Of course, there are mountains in Iran, a place where I have sometimes
dreamed of skiing. OED says it is from Old Norse Skid, a billet of cleft
wood. Earliest English example, 1755 Monthly Review XII 451 "He says they
have skies, or long and thin pieces of board, so smooth, that the peasants
wade through the snow with them."
There was a discussion on the word skidaddle on this ng (qv). I would be
interested if there were any earlier reference to this activity. Iranian
skiing would be for sport since the decreasing likelihood of mountain
travel
there.
[/quote:edfb5806df] |
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| benlizross |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:52 pm |
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Martyn Harrison wrote:
[quote:928bc5a5b1]
Apparently on date Mon, 25 Apr 2005 00:46:24 +1200, benlizross
benlizro@ihug.co.nz> said:
Martyn Harrison wrote:
Apparently on date Sun, 24 Apr 2005 10:05:13 +1200, benlizross
benlizro@ihug.co.nz> said:
From a _Guardian_ story by Robert Tait about skiing in Iran:
"Skiing in Iran dates back to 2000BC, when ancient tribes are believed
to have devised a ski board made from animal hide. Linguists associate
the word ski with the Aryan language, from which Farsi is derived."
The second sentence is so nonsensical, it makes me wonder whether there
is any basis at all for the first. The two together sound like part of
someone's desperate attempt to establish an Iranian pedigree for skiing
so that ideologues could not stigmatize it as "foreign" or "Western".
Of course Tait goes on to note that "modern skiing" was introduced in
the 1930s by Germans...
Was there ever a time that sapiens didn't skate about on ice, then?
Dunno. To me it still doesn't seem like a normal sapient activity. And
skating ain't skiing. Nor, for that matter, is sliding on a "ski board
made from animal hide". That might be a toboggan, or at best a
snowboard, but not a ski. And snowshoeing is something different again.
What we know about the ancient history of any of these activities (as
means of travel or as recreation) is what I'm trying to get at.
Well, seems to me that when there was ice of a winter, as a child I was, like
my peers, sliding about on it and using things like sledges, skates and
similar.
Anywhere that there was ice and snow for any length of time, would involve the
development of ways of exploiting the snow and ice. 2000 BC seems to me to be
far too recent for the invention of practical skis, I'd say they were in use
ten times as long ago and probably more. They're like spears, IME, simple
evolutionary tools.
[/quote:928bc5a5b1]
But if you look at the ethnographic picture, spears are found
essentially everywhere, skis are not. Even if you add snowshoes as an
alternative way of getting around, I believe there would still be large
areas where it snows but people do not (historically) have either of
these things.
Ross Clark |
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| benlizross |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 2:57 pm |
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Mike wrote:
[quote:66d1c72424]
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote in message
news:426B9520.6ED@ihug.co.nz...
Dunno. To me it still doesn't seem like a normal sapient activity. And
skating ain't skiing. Nor, for that matter, is sliding on a "ski board
made from animal hide". That might be a toboggan, or at best a
snowboard, but not a ski. And snowshoeing is something different again.
What we know about the ancient history of any of these activities (as
means of travel or as recreation) is what I'm trying to get at.
Ross Clark
Of course, there are mountains in Iran, a place where I have sometimes
dreamed of skiing. OED says it is from Old Norse Skid, a billet of cleft
wood. Earliest English example, 1755 Monthly Review XII 451 "He says they
have skies, or long and thin pieces of board, so smooth, that the peasants
wade through the snow with them."
[/quote:66d1c72424]
Yes, it is well known that the English and other European peoples got
both the practice of skiing and the word "ski" from the Norwegians
within the last couple of centuries.
[quote:66d1c72424]There was a discussion on the word skidaddle on this ng (qv). I would be
interested if there were any earlier reference to this activity. Iranian
skiing would be for sport since the decreasing likelihood of mountain travel
there.
[/quote:66d1c72424]
What I am asking is -- is there any evidence that Iranians were doing
anything involving sliding down the snow on pieces of wood before the
1930s?
Ross Clark |
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| benlizross |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:04 pm |
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I.E_Johansson wrote:
[quote:16da3b320c]
"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000 år. De mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man hittat är från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000 years. The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii found is from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if the later date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second oldest found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is older than the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii model. Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
[/quote:16da3b320c]
This may be true. However, the original writer said that the *word*
"ski" was of "Aryan" origin. Now if "Aryan" = Indo-European, this is
strictly correct, since Norwegian is an IE language. However, the writer
appeared to be suggesting that this supported the idea that skiing had
an ancient history in Iran, which it does not. He may have been confused
by the use of "Indo-Aryan" to refer to a branch of IE in that area. Or
by the etymological connection of "Iran" with "Aryan". Or he may have
been confused in some other way.
Ross Clark |
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| I.E_Johansson |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:18 pm |
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Guest
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"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C09DF.4ED2@ihug.co.nz...
[quote:92eafe30e4]I.E_Johansson wrote:
"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000 år. De
mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man hittat är
från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000 years.
The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii found is
from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if the later
date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second oldest
found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is older than
the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii model.
Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
This may be true. However, the original writer said that the *word*
"ski" was of "Aryan" origin. Now if "Aryan" = Indo-European, this is
strictly correct, since Norwegian is an IE language. However, the writer
appeared to be suggesting that this supported the idea that skiing had
an ancient history in Iran, which it does not. He may have been confused
by the use of "Indo-Aryan" to refer to a branch of IE in that area. Or
by the etymological connection of "Iran" with "Aryan". Or he may have
been confused in some other way.
Ross Clark
[/quote:92eafe30e4]
He most be confused, I agree upon that part. But I am not 100% with you on
the Indo-Aryan definition's correctness. I do believe as my teacher in High
School Ph.D. Rosell told us long ago, the origin and relationship of
languages are more complicated than the definition gives them credit for.
Inger E |
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| benlizross |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:35 pm |
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Guest
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I.E_Johansson wrote:
[quote:1ba6c180df]
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C09DF.4ED2@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000 år. De
mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man hittat är
från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000 years.
The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii found is
from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if the later
date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second oldest
found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is older than
the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii model.
Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
This may be true. However, the original writer said that the *word*
"ski" was of "Aryan" origin. Now if "Aryan" = Indo-European, this is
strictly correct, since Norwegian is an IE language. However, the writer
appeared to be suggesting that this supported the idea that skiing had
an ancient history in Iran, which it does not. He may have been confused
by the use of "Indo-Aryan" to refer to a branch of IE in that area. Or
by the etymological connection of "Iran" with "Aryan". Or he may have
been confused in some other way.
Ross Clark
He most be confused, I agree upon that part. But I am not 100% with you on
the Indo-Aryan definition's correctness. I do believe as my teacher in High
School Ph.D. Rosell told us long ago, the origin and relationship of
languages are more complicated than the definition gives them credit for.
Inger E
[/quote:1ba6c180df]
What definition? And exactly what do you and your teacher think is wrong
with it?
Ross Clark |
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| I.E_Johansson |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 3:53 pm |
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Guest
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"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C111E.324D@ihug.co.nz...
[quote:cea3da93a6]I.E_Johansson wrote:
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C09DF.4ED2@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år
gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000 år. De
mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man hittat är
från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000
years.
The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii found is
from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if the
later
date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second oldest
found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is older
than
the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii
model.
Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern
Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no
matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
This may be true. However, the original writer said that the *word*
"ski" was of "Aryan" origin. Now if "Aryan" = Indo-European, this is
strictly correct, since Norwegian is an IE language. However, the
writer
appeared to be suggesting that this supported the idea that skiing had
an ancient history in Iran, which it does not. He may have been
confused
by the use of "Indo-Aryan" to refer to a branch of IE in that area. Or
by the etymological connection of "Iran" with "Aryan". Or he may have
been confused in some other way.
Ross Clark
He most be confused, I agree upon that part. But I am not 100% with you
on
the Indo-Aryan definition's correctness. I do believe as my teacher in
High
School Ph.D. Rosell told us long ago, the origin and relationship of
languages are more complicated than the definition gives them credit
for.
Inger E
What definition? And exactly what do you and your teacher think is wrong
with it?
Ross Clark
[/quote:cea3da93a6]
My teacher is long gone to the next life if such exist. What I believe from
what he said and what other said over the years including from what I read
in works of linguists I have had to read, is that the origin and
relationship probably aren't the one given in
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=gwal815u3vbo?method=4&dsid=20
40&dekey=IndEurTABLE&gwp=8&curtab=2040_1&sbid=lc03a
and
http://www.answers.com/topic/indo-aryan-languages&method=6
I do agree with the teachers I had among them the one I mentioned that it's
likely that the hugh migrations taking place in Ancient Age makes it more
likely that the influence might have gone south-> north as well.
Inger E |
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| benlizross |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:20 pm |
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Guest
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I.E_Johansson wrote:
[quote:729228a81f]
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C111E.324D@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C09DF.4ED2@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år
gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000 år. De
mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man hittat är
från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000
years.
The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii found is
from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if the
later
date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second oldest
found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is older
than
the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii
model.
Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern
Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no
matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
This may be true. However, the original writer said that the *word*
"ski" was of "Aryan" origin. Now if "Aryan" = Indo-European, this is
strictly correct, since Norwegian is an IE language. However, the
writer
appeared to be suggesting that this supported the idea that skiing had
an ancient history in Iran, which it does not. He may have been
confused
by the use of "Indo-Aryan" to refer to a branch of IE in that area. Or
by the etymological connection of "Iran" with "Aryan". Or he may have
been confused in some other way.
Ross Clark
He most be confused, I agree upon that part. But I am not 100% with you
on
the Indo-Aryan definition's correctness. I do believe as my teacher in
High
School Ph.D. Rosell told us long ago, the origin and relationship of
languages are more complicated than the definition gives them credit
for.
Inger E
What definition? And exactly what do you and your teacher think is wrong
with it?
Ross Clark
My teacher is long gone to the next life if such exist. What I believe from
what he said and what other said over the years including from what I read
in works of linguists I have had to read, is that the origin and
relationship probably aren't the one given in
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=gwal815u3vbo?method=4&dsid=20
40&dekey=IndEurTABLE&gwp=8&curtab=2040_1&sbid=lc03a
and
http://www.answers.com/topic/indo-aryan-languages&method=6
I do agree with the teachers I had among them the one I mentioned that it's
likely that the hugh migrations taking place in Ancient Age makes it more
likely that the influence might have gone south-> north as well.
Inger E
[/quote:729228a81f]
I cannot be bothered following the first (ridiculously long) URL. The
second one merely states that "Indo-Aryan" = Indic is a branch of
Indo-European comprising languages spoken in India, and that it is part
of a larger branch called Indo-Iranian. Which part of this definition do
you not agree with? Note that the definition says nothing about
migrations, or about south -> north or north -> south.
Ross Clark |
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| I.E_Johansson |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 4:30 pm |
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Guest
|
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C1B9A.3DF1@ihug.co.nz...
[quote:c0ceea23c0]I.E_Johansson wrote:
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C111E.324D@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C09DF.4ED2@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år
gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years
old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern
Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000
år. De
mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man
hittat är
från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000
years.
The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii
found is
from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if
the
later
date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second
oldest
found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is
older
than
the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii
model.
Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern
Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no
matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
This may be true. However, the original writer said that the
*word*
"ski" was of "Aryan" origin. Now if "Aryan" = Indo-European, this
is
strictly correct, since Norwegian is an IE language. However, the
writer
appeared to be suggesting that this supported the idea that skiing
had
an ancient history in Iran, which it does not. He may have been
confused
by the use of "Indo-Aryan" to refer to a branch of IE in that
area. Or
by the etymological connection of "Iran" with "Aryan". Or he may
have
been confused in some other way.
Ross Clark
He most be confused, I agree upon that part. But I am not 100% with
you
on
the Indo-Aryan definition's correctness. I do believe as my teacher
in
High
School Ph.D. Rosell told us long ago, the origin and relationship of
languages are more complicated than the definition gives them credit
for.
Inger E
What definition? And exactly what do you and your teacher think is
wrong
with it?
Ross Clark
My teacher is long gone to the next life if such exist. What I believe
from
what he said and what other said over the years including from what I
read
in works of linguists I have had to read, is that the origin and
relationship probably aren't the one given in
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=gwal815u3vbo?method=4&dsid=20
40&dekey=IndEurTABLE&gwp=8&curtab=2040_1&sbid=lc03a
and
http://www.answers.com/topic/indo-aryan-languages&method=6
I do agree with the teachers I had among them the one I mentioned that
it's
likely that the hugh migrations taking place in Ancient Age makes it
more
likely that the influence might have gone south-> north as well.
Inger E
I cannot be bothered following the first (ridiculously long) URL. The
second one merely states that "Indo-Aryan" = Indic is a branch of
Indo-European comprising languages spoken in India, and that it is part
of a larger branch called Indo-Iranian. Which part of this definition do
you not agree with? Note that the definition says nothing about
migrations, or about south -> north or north -> south.
Ross Clark
[/quote:c0ceea23c0]
Definition don't say but other thing does, artifacts as well as DNA and Oral
traditions down to the time they were written down.
Inger E |
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| Eric Stevens |
| Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2005 6:25 pm |
|
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Guest
|
On Mon, 25 Apr 2005 10:20:10 +1200, benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:
[quote:78fdb848c0]I.E_Johansson wrote:
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C111E.324D@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"benlizross" <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> skrev i meddelandet
news:426C09DF.4ED2@ihug.co.nz...
I.E_Johansson wrote:
"Den äldsta skidan som hittats i Finland. Den är över 5000 år
gammal. "
"the oldest skii found in Finland. It's more than 5000 years old."
http://personal.inet.fi/koti/kari.saariniemi/shistoriikki.html
That one is disputed but we still have this up in Northern Europe:
"Grottmålningar visar på att skidor har funnits i mer än 5000 år. De
mest
kända målningarna kommer från Norge. Den äldsta skidan man hittat är
från
Hoting i Sverige, och den är från cirka 2500 fKr."
Cave paintings show that the skiis been used for more than 5000
years.
The
oldest known paintings are found in Norway. The oldest skii found is
from
Hoting in Sweden, and it's from around 2500 BC."
http://www.campushallen.se/alpin/upload/slalom.php?cms=link109
Now the dating is disputed. That's correct and the skii is if the
later
date
given 1200 BC(C 14 dating) is the correct one only the second oldest
found
in Sweden.
http://www.op.se/nyheter/hoting/hoting.html
http://biphome.spray.se/valagarden/hotingskidan.htm
and the Oldest known skii, the so called "Kalvträskskidan" is older
than
the
Egyptian Pyramides. It's dated to 5200 BP(3200 BC) C14 dated.
http://www.vasterbottensmuseum.se/imuseet/skidmuseet.php
http://web.telia.com/~u91502095/skida.html
and btw. it's of the later skii-model known as the Sibirian skii
model.
Many
skiis from mid Bronze Age on forward have been found in northern
Norway,
Sweden and Finland. None of those can be believed to be Aryan no
matter
what's that word is used for...
Inger E
This may be true. However, the original writer said that the *word*
"ski" was of "Aryan" origin. Now if "Aryan" = Indo-European, this is
strictly correct, since Norwegian is an IE language. However, the
writer
appeared to be suggesting that this supported the idea that skiing had
an ancient history in Iran, which it does not. He may have been
confused
by the use of "Indo-Aryan" to refer to a branch of IE in that area. Or
by the etymological connection of "Iran" with "Aryan". Or he may have
been confused in some other way.
Ross Clark
He most be confused, I agree upon that part. But I am not 100% with you
on
the Indo-Aryan definition's correctness. I do believe as my teacher in
High
School Ph.D. Rosell told us long ago, the origin and relationship of
languages are more complicated than the definition gives them credit
for.
Inger E
What definition? And exactly what do you and your teacher think is wrong
with it?
Ross Clark
My teacher is long gone to the next life if such exist. What I believe from
what he said and what other said over the years including from what I read
in works of linguists I have had to read, is that the origin and
relationship probably aren't the one given in
http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery;jsessionid=gwal815u3vbo?method=4&dsid=2040&dekey=IndEurTABLE&gwp=8&curtab=2040_1&sbid=lc03a
and
http://www.answers.com/topic/indo-aryan-languages&method=6
I do agree with the teachers I had among them the one I mentioned that it's
likely that the hugh migrations taking place in Ancient Age makes it more
likely that the influence might have gone south-> north as well.
Inger E
I cannot be bothered following the first (ridiculously long) URL.
[/quote:78fdb848c0]
Blame Mr Gates for the problem. Also, try http://tinyurl.com/9doxz
instead.
[quote:78fdb848c0]The
second one merely states that "Indo-Aryan" = Indic is a branch of
Indo-European comprising languages spoken in India, and that it is part
of a larger branch called Indo-Iranian. Which part of this definition do
you not agree with? Note that the definition says nothing about
migrations, or about south -> north or north -> south.
Ross Clark
[/quote:78fdb848c0]
Eric Stevens |
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