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| Christian Weisgerber... |
 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 10:57 am |
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How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at (no spam) mips.inka.de |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:46 pm |
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On Oct 27, 6:29爌m, Ant髇io Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
[quote]Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
[/quote]
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
[quote]As a proper name it's C韈ero ['sis+ru] here (one of the 3 little pigs),
as an occupation it's cicerone [sis+'rOn+].
[/quote]
Hmm. Our three little pigs don't have names. But they do have a song,
apparently the first song that went from a cartoon to "top forty" (or
whatever the 1930s equivalent was): "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad
Wolf," taken to be a scoffing at the Great Depression.
(The author of a book on Disney's impact on popular music was
interviewed on NPR last week or so.) |
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| Ant贸nio Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:29 pm |
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Christian Weisgerber wrote:
[quote]How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic茅ron" in French?
[/quote]
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
As a proper name it's C铆cero ['sis+ru] here (one of the 3 little pigs),
as an occupation it's cicerone [sis+'rOn+]. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:03 pm |
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On Oct 27, 8:09爌m, Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removet... at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29 pm, Ant髇io Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N閞on, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio).
[/quote]
I was kind of hoping that Christian would respond to a Socratic
exchange. |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:09 pm |
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Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 6:29 pm, Ant髇io Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
[/quote]
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N閞on, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio). |
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| Adam Funk... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:41 pm |
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On 2009-10-28, Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29 pm, Ant贸nio Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic茅ron" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N茅ron, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio).
[/quote]
AIUI, the lemma of a modern French noun is generally derived from the
Latin accusative singular with some transformations and dropping a few
letters/sounds from the end. (Obviously this is a simplification.)
--
I don't know what they have to say
It makes no difference anyway;
Whatever it is, I'm against it! [Prof. Wagstaff] |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 7:41 pm |
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On Oct 28, 11:46燼m, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 27, 6:29爌m, Ant髇io Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
As a proper name it's C韈ero ['sis+ru] here (one of the 3 little pigs),
as an occupation it's cicerone [sis+'rOn+].
Hmm. Our three little pigs don't have names. But they do have a song,
apparently the first song that went from a cartoon to "top forty" (or
whatever the 1930s equivalent was): "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad
Wolf," taken to be a scoffing at the Great Depression.
(The author of a book on Disney's impact on popular music was
interviewed on NPR last week or so.)
[/quote]
Cicero was the name of Porky Pig's nephew. |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:33 am |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29 pm, Ant贸nio Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic茅ron" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N茅ron, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio).
[/quote]
Would they be using a different rule for Greek names such as Clio (螝位蔚喂蠋)?
pjk |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:09 am |
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PaulJK wrote:
[quote]Harlan Messinger wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29 pm, Ant贸nio Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic茅ron" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N茅ron, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio).
Would they be using a different rule for Greek names such as Clio (螝位蔚喂蠋)?
pjk
[/quote]
Then I thought, what about Pluton? But the original Greek name
already ends in -on, (螤位慰蠉蟿蠅谓).
pjk |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:49 am |
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On Oct 28, 1:41燼m, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 11:46燼m, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29爌m, Ant髇io Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
As a proper name it's C韈ero ['sis+ru] here (one of the 3 little pigs),
as an occupation it's cicerone [sis+'rOn+].
Hmm. Our three little pigs don't have names. But they do have a song,
apparently the first song that went from a cartoon to "top forty" (or
whatever the 1930s equivalent was): "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad
Wolf," taken to be a scoffing at the Great Depression.
(The author of a book on Disney's impact on popular music was
interviewed on NPR last week or so.)
Cicero was the name of Porky Pig's nephew.-
[/quote]
Porky Pig has a nephew?? Sorry, Mr. Pig isn't really in my mental
universe of cartoon characters. He just does the "th-th-th-that's all
folks!" at the end of the Merrie Melodies, which I think are Warner.. |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:33 am |
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PaulJK wrote:
[quote]Harlan Messinger wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29 pm, Ant贸nio Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic茅ron" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N茅ron, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio).
Would they be using a different rule for Greek names such as Clio (螝位蔚喂蠋)?
[/quote]
Oh, of course. I wasn't paying attention! But even so--how would Latin
have handled that name declension-wise in the interim between Greek and
French? |
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| Ant贸nio Marques... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:39 am |
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Harlan Messinger wrote:
[quote]PaulJK wrote:
Harlan Messinger wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29 pm, Ant贸nio Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic茅ron" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N茅ron, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be
Clio).
Would they be using a different rule for Greek names such as Clio
(螝位蔚喂蠋)?
Oh, of course. I wasn't paying attention! But even so--how would Latin
have handled that name declension-wise in the interim between Greek and
French?
[/quote]
Dubhglas can no dount enlighten us, but it's not like they had an
Academia Linguae Latinae to enforce such things. Some nouns just jumped
declensions. Cf poi膿t膿麓s -> poeta. |
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| Christian Weisgerber... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:15 am |
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Guest
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Peter T. Daniels <grammatim at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N閞on, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio).
I was kind of hoping that Christian would respond to a Socratic
exchange.
[/quote]
I'm a pleb. I don't understand any of the replies.
I'll now go and look up "Socratic exchange" in Wikipedia.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber naddy at (no spam) mips.inka.de |
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| benlizro at (no spam) ihug.co.nz... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:05 am |
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On Oct 29, 3:49燼m, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 1:41燼m, "benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz" <benli... at (no spam) ihug.co.nz> wrote:
On Oct 28, 11:46燼m, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
On Oct 27, 6:29爌m, Ant髇io Marques <m... at (no spam) sapo.pt> wrote:
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
As a proper name it's C韈ero ['sis+ru] here (one of the 3 little pigs),
as an occupation it's cicerone [sis+'rOn+].
Hmm. Our three little pigs don't have names. But they do have a song,
apparently the first song that went from a cartoon to "top forty" (or
whatever the 1930s equivalent was): "Who's Afraid of the Big Bad
Wolf," taken to be a scoffing at the Great Depression.
(The author of a book on Disney's impact on popular music was
interviewed on NPR last week or so.)
Cicero was the name of Porky Pig's nephew.-
Porky Pig has a nephew??
[/quote]
Uh-huh. Like Mickey and Donald. They were provided with female
consorts (not wives) and nephews (not children). I'm sure there's a
fascinating explanation for this somewhere.
Sorry, Mr. Pig isn't really in my mental
[quote]universe of cartoon characters. He just does the "th-th-th-that's all
folks!" at the end of the Merrie Melodies, which I think are Warner..
[/quote]
I suspect this was what Antonio had in mind when he said "one of the 3
little pigs". My best information is that the pigs in the 1933 Disney
version were called Fiddler, Fifer and Practical. But maybe they were
renamed in Portuguese?
Ross Clark |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:28 am |
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On Oct 28, 3:15爌m, na... at (no spam) mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
[quote]Peter T. Daniels <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
How did Marcus Tullius Cicero's name turn into "Cic閞on" in French?
Wasn't it always 3rd declension?
Does "lion" have an <n> in French? < leo leonis
Yes, "lion", spelled as in English. Also, English Pluto = French Pluton,
Nero = N閞on, Cato = Caton, Dido = Didon (though Clio appears to be Clio).
I was kind of hoping that Christian would respond to a Socratic
exchange.
I'm a pleb. 營 don't understand any of the replies.
I'll now go and look up "Socratic exchange" in Wikipedia.
[/quote]
Socrates said that he never imparted any information himself, but drew
it out of his students (cf. "e-ducare"), who already possessed all
knowledge innately -- by asking questions with obvious answers that
the students invariably got right.
"Cicero" has an n in French for the same reason that "lion" has an n
in French: it's the Latin base, from which the n was dropped in the
nominative. |
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