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| chance... |
 Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:02 am |
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1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing
in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense from each other. Do they?
TIA
CK |
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| Lars Eighner... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:02 am |
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In our last episode, <7nkpgbF3ld0r4U1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net>, the lovely and
talented chance broadcast on alt.usage.english:
[quote]1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that they
look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so they
look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the
wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way
that, so, so that', yet the three do seem to have no differences
whatsoever in sense from each other. Do they?
[/quote]
"In such a way" and "so" mean the same thing in this context. "That" is
sometimes omitted. 1 is correct. In 2 or 3 either "in such a way" or
"so" should be omitted.
Please use a line length of fewer than 80 characters in posting to USENET.
--
Lars Eighner <http://larseighner.com/> September 5936, 1993
314 days since Rick Warren prayed over Bush's third term.
Obama: No hope, no change, more of the same. Yes, he can, but no, he won't. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:02 am |
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On Dec 1, 10:02 am, "chance" <cinci... at (no spam) yahoo.co.kr> wrote:
[quote]1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing
in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense from each other. Do they?
[/quote]
(2) and (3) are ungrammatical. "Such" takes "that," not "so."
Also, as others have mentioned it's not exactly a true statement. |
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| aquachimp... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:02 am |
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On Dec 1, 5:15 pm, "James Silverton" <not.jim.silver... at (no spam) verizon.net>
wrote:
[quote] Pat wrote on Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:48:36 -0600:
"chance" <cinci... at (no spam) yahoo.co.kr> wrote in message
news:7nkpgbF3ld0r4U1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net...
1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than
those growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than
those growing in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
that they look their most beautiful--even prettier
than those growing in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in
such a way that, so, so that', yet the three do seem to have no
differences whatsoever in sense from each other. Do they?
None of the three sentences expresses the principles of Bonsai, to try
to grow a small plant so that it imitates a much larger wild one, so why
worry?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonsai "...is the art of aesthetic
miniaturization of trees,... "
But, even allowing for the term "container" being also correctly
applied, I suggest that since "in such a way..." is been used to
replace the details then the word "containers" could also be left out,
and particularly since it fails to elaborate on the specifics involved
in the selection of the containers.
That said, I'd prefer either 1) or I'd opt for Tom P's "..so as to
look..." |
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| Cheryl... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:03 am |
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chance wrote:
[quote]1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the
wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so they
look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the
wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way
that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense from
each other. Do they?
TIA
CK
[/quote]
I don't think there's a difference in meaning, but I wouldn't use 'so'
in that context and I certainly wouldn't use 'so that'. I can't think of
a good reason. I think it's at least partly because 2 & 3 sound too
wordy. But taking out the 'in such a way' seems to make using 'so that'
or 'so' sound better, while shortening only one of them.
I might say 'Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers so that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the
wild.' or 'Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers so they look
their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the wild.'
--
Cheryl |
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| Pat Durkin... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:48 am |
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"chance" <cinci_kr at (no spam) yahoo.co.kr> wrote in message
news:7nkpgbF3ld0r4U1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net...
[quote]1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way
that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in
the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a
way that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense
from each other. Do they?
[/quote]
I agree with Cheryl's selection of your first example as the aptest.
For your second and third examples, while I do not detect any
difference in meaning from the first example,
I would amend the second and third to read "in such a way as to look",
or I would remove "in such a way" in favor of "so"(no "that),
or even for all three sentences eliminate everything between
"containers" and "even" and replace that with "containers so they look
even, etc." |
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| James Silverton... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:15 am |
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Guest
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Pat wrote on Tue, 1 Dec 2009 09:48:36 -0600:
[quote]"chance" <cinci_kr at (no spam) yahoo.co.kr> wrote in message
news:7nkpgbF3ld0r4U1 at (no spam) mid.individual.net...
1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than
those growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than
those growing in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
that they look their most beautiful--even prettier
than those growing in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in
such a way that, so, so that', yet the three do seem to have no
differences whatsoever in sense from each other. Do they?
[/quote]
None of the three sentences expresses the principles of Bonsai, to try
to grow a small plant so that it imitates a much larger wild one, so why
worry?
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not |
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| John O'Flaherty... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:29 am |
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On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 00:02:39 +0900, "chance" <cinci_kr at (no spam) yahoo.co.kr>
wrote:
[quote]1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing
in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense from each other. Do they?
[/quote]
This seems simpler and equivalent, to me:
Bonsai are trees and [other] plants grown in containers to look their
most beautiful...
--
John |
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| Tom P... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:42 pm |
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John O'Flaherty wrote:
[quote]On Wed, 2 Dec 2009 00:02:39 +0900, "chance" <cinci_kr at (no spam) yahoo.co.kr
wrote:
1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing
in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those
growing in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense from each other. Do they?
This seems simpler and equivalent, to me:
Bonsai are trees and [other] plants grown in containers to look their
most beautiful...
[/quote]
or:
Bonsai are trees and [other] plants grown in containers so as to look
their most beautiful...
BTW I consider 2 and 3 to be ungrammatical, or at least poor style.
T. |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 6:06 pm |
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On Dec 1, 9:03 pm, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp at (no spam) retep> wrote:
[quote]Bart Mathias wrote:
Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
Please use a line length of fewer than 80 characters in posting to
USENET.
I wish I knew how to do that. Posts I edit in Icedove's Compose
window automatically bread (as this did as I was typing
"automatically), but when they come back, posted, the lines run all
the way across the window. Most annoying!
I have the same problem with my postings. Does anyone know how to turn
off the "format=flawed" option in Thunderbird? I try to remember to do a
"Rewrap" operation before sending. In the original Mozilla this created
hard line breaks, but in current versions it still leaves the wrong
"Content-Type" header line.
[/quote]
So maybe google groups isn't so horrible after all? |
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| Bart Mathias... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:33 pm |
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Cheryl wrote:
[quote]chance wrote:
1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in
the wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in
the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so
that they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing
in the wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way
that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense from
each other. Do they?
TIA
CK
I don't think there's a difference in meaning, but I wouldn't use 'so'
in that context and I certainly wouldn't use 'so that'. I can't think of
a good reason. I think it's at least partly because 2 & 3 sound too
wordy. But taking out the 'in such a way' seems to make using 'so that'
or 'so' sound better, while shortening only one of them.
I might say 'Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers so that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the
wild.' or 'Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers so they look
their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the wild.'
[/quote]
Both of yours, it seems to me, make the "grown in containers" part of
the thing that makes those plants prettier than wild ones. That is, the
"so" clause seems to modify "grown."
Bart |
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| Bart Mathias... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:36 pm |
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Lars Eighner wrote:
[quote][...]
Please use a line length of fewer than 80 characters in posting to USENET.
[/quote]
I wish I knew how to do that. Posts I edit in Icedove's Compose window
automatically bread (as this did as I was typing "automatically), but
when they come back, posted, the lines run all the way across the
window. Most annoying!
BArt Mathias |
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| Peter Moylan... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:03 pm |
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Bart Mathias wrote:
[quote]Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
Please use a line length of fewer than 80 characters in posting to
USENET.
I wish I knew how to do that. Posts I edit in Icedove's Compose
window automatically bread (as this did as I was typing
"automatically), but when they come back, posted, the lines run all
the way across the window. Most annoying!
[/quote]
I have the same problem with my postings. Does anyone know how to turn
off the "format=flawed" option in Thunderbird? I try to remember to do a
"Rewrap" operation before sending. In the original Mozilla this created
hard line breaks, but in current versions it still leaves the wrong
"Content-Type" header line.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page. |
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| John Atkinson... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:40 pm |
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chance wrote:
[quote]1. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the
wild.
2. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so they
look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the wild.
3. Bonsai are trees and plants grown in containers in such a way so that
they look their most beautiful--even prettier than those growing in the
wild.
The three sentences differ in form only in the part of 'in such a way
that, so, so that',
yet the three do seem to have no differences whatsoever in sense from
each other. Do they?
Probably not, though it's hard to say since 2. and 3. aren't grammatical[/quote]
IMO. They would be better English if "in such a way" was left out; if
this was done 2. and 3. would mean the same thing as each other, but
this meaning would be different from the meaning of 1.
J. |
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| John Atkinson... |
| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:08 am |
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Peter Moylan wrote:
[quote]Bart Mathias wrote:
Lars Eighner wrote:
[...]
Please use a line length of fewer than 80 characters in posting to
USENET.
I wish I knew how to do that. Posts I edit in Icedove's Compose window
automatically bread (as this did as I was typing "automatically), but
when they come back, posted, the lines run all the way across the
window. Most annoying!
I have the same problem with my postings. Does anyone know how to turn
off the "format=flawed" option in Thunderbird? I try to remember to do a
"Rewrap" operation before sending. In the original Mozilla this created
hard line breaks,
I don't know about "format=flawed" -- on a quick glance through the[/quote]
menus, I can't find it -- but line breaks in Thunderbird are set using
edit/preferences/general/"wrap plain text messages at [figure] characters.
[quote]
but in current versions it still leaves the wrong
"Content-Type" header line.
Have you got View/headers set to "normal"?[/quote]
J. |
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