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Taka...
Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 6:08 am
Guest
I can confirm the correctness of the following article from at least 2
additional sources. In a nutshell, DHT and progesterone are the good
hormones because they are opposing the growth promoting/oxidative
stress inducing properties of estrogen in men and women,
respectively. They have also pro-apoptotic properties which may help
killing precancerous cells (in addition to e.g. hair follicles in the
case of DHT). So all men praise you balding scalp and you will be
rewarded with cancer and BPH protection! A side note for chemists:
not by a pure coincidence the estrogen molecule carries the highest
number of double bonds (in an aromatic ring) like the PUFAs such as
arachidonic acid which act synergically with it to promote oxidative
stress. On the other hand the good DHT is nearly fully saturated
molecule. IMHO the double bonds are essential for the pro-growth
signaling in all biological systems.

DHT - Is It All Bad?

by Patrick Arnold

A considerable chunk of my work day is always spent answering people’s
questions about prohormones and steroids. Of course, one of the
biggest concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related
side effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It
seems that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil
androgen by product that serves no purpose in the body but to make our
prostates blow up and our hair fall out.

The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those
good guy / bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many
people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in
the body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is
probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will
help you decide just which group you belong to.

Testosterone is a prohormone?

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone.
However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried
through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain
(CNS), skin, genitals – practically everything but muscle – the active
androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a
prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action
of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent
area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very
little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the
body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed
into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

This transformation serves a very important biological function in
these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than
testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen
receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the
formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in
physiology.

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due
to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder,
however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this
disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have
ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty
occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT
levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that
of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body
hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual
function is often disrupted also.

Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the
body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is
actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is
formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the
muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-
hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary
active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT
is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some
anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that
of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown
by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If
this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit
very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the
active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct
anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the
full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I
specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous
system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength),
and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress - not to
mention optimal sexual function and libido.

I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked
testosterone with proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed
significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on
here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct
anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it
is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the
body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS,
which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to
greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a
reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors
(such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much
discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar
learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By
reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have
fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways
that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens
activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive
antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced
RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly
block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the
activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue
showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent
inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-
androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was
the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the
secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of
gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for
estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself
cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into
particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to
be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the
general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The
inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for
prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst
most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must
understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate
growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and
cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is
connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This
takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized,
healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early
and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the
constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens
are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size.
This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that
DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is
deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a
wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental
growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen /
androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly
correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with
saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of
prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable.
Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or
androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate
of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an
aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more
accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount
of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few
of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do
that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the
body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in
the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen
that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of
gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less
testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen
levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT,
low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent
5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The
following illustrates the results:

"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to
modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to
2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as
in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml
(from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma
levels, these decreased by 50%.

Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished
significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate
Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.
16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after
treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean
duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning
BPH now doesn’t it?

Conclusion

People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or
bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on
everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that
serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see,
this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of
5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people
that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break.

SOURCE: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm


Also recommended reading about estrogen and PUFAs on the Ray Peat
site:
http://raypeat.com/articles/

Taka
Marshall Price...
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:27 pm
Guest
Taka wrote:
Quote:
I can confirm the correctness of the following article from at least 2
additional sources. In a nutshell, DHT and progesterone are the good
hormones because they are opposing the growth promoting/oxidative
stress inducing properties of estrogen in men and women,
respectively. They have also pro-apoptotic properties which may help
killing precancerous cells (in addition to e.g. hair follicles in the
case of DHT). So all men praise you balding scalp and you will be
rewarded with cancer and BPH protection!

DHT is a good thing because it kills hair follicles?

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c
Taka...
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:28 pm
Guest
On May 17, 6:33 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
My hair's been falling out like crazy. I could care less about
muscle mass or prostate hypertrophy; I want my hair back!

AFAIK the thinning not falling of hairs is the effect of DHT. Also
the "pattern" is specific ...

Taka
Taka...
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 3:35 pm
Guest
Another article from the "anabolic circle" which suggests that DHT
causes TH2 to TH1 immunity shift causing joint/connective tissue
destruction. Progesterone has the opposite effect and protects
joints. From many sources it looks to me that progesterone is the
winner. (but at the same time TH2 is responsible for allergies ...)

Taka

Deca, Winstrol and Your Joints

by Anthony Roberts

Separating Fiction from Fact

I’ve been somewhat plagued by certain questions ever since I started
reading about steroids a decade ago. Certain ideas just never sat well
with me…and unfortunately, when I asked more questions, I only
received similar answers. When I was introduced to the world of
internet steroid boards about half a decade ago, I posed these same
questions to the "powers that be" on the boards I was a member of. I
received many of the same answers, but my private messages and e-mails
to moderators and staff members on various boards asking for
references or some kind of logic were all left unanswered. On occasion
I was offered the profound advice that it’s "well known that…etc…" and
told to stop asking. Well known to whom? It’s certainly not well known
to me.

One of the most annoying and often repeated "well known fact" is that
Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) improves and soothes your joints by
storing water in them. And, conversely, Winstrol has a "reverse
osmotic" effect on your joints, which makes them ache when you use it,
because it draws water out of your body, joints included. Reverse
Osmotic? Wow…if we use really big words, maybe we’ll sound smart and
people will stop asking questions. I believe this to be the dictum
most anabolic steroid boards are founded on, and probably the way the
staff on those boards begin their evening prayers…

Well, this mode of thinking isn’t good enough for me, and if you’re
reading MESO-Rx or Avant’s website or Mind and Muscle magazine, it’s
not good enough for you either. Hold on, because we’re about to
engineer a paradigm shift!

My first clue to solving this mystery was that Winstrol was DHT
derived, as is Masteron, and I have a friend who gets bad joint
problems when using both of them. A little bit of research revealed
many people shared his affliction. And it was very obvious that many
people who’ve used Deca have found it to alleviate chronic joint
problems and pains. I know that Deca is a 19-nor derived steroid, and
I also know that it’s a progestin, and hence can stimulate the
progesterone receptor (15) about 20% as well as progesterone. I also
know that it aromatizes (converts to estrogen) at a much lesser rate
than testosterone (16). Could the answer somehow lie in estrogen?
Well, Deca doesn’t really aromatize much at all, so maybe there is a
synergy between Deca’s PgR stimulating ability and its low(ish)
estrogenic effects?

We certainly know that Estrogen depletion by menopause can decrease
bone mineral density and the replacement of estrogen quickly restores
the bone loss (1Cool. In addition, we know that estrogen is aided in
this by progesterone but that estrogen is more important (19).
Collagen is also subject to improvement by addition of estrogen and
progesterone (20). But is that all? Why do your joints "feel" better
on deca?

And where would this leave us, in terms of Winstrol and Masteron
causing pain in joints? I have always thought there was something more
to this. And I think the answer lies in DHT.

You see, DHT administration has been found to decrease estrogen levels
through a variety of mechanisms on peripheral tissue (1). DHT directly
inhibits estrogenic activity on tissues, either by acting as a
competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing
estrogen receptor binding. Either way, it has two clear mechanisms of
possible action in peripheral tissue.
DHT and its metabolites have further been shown to inhibit
aromatization itself, and this is a possible mechanism whereby it can
reduce circulating levels of estrogen in your body. Indeed, DHT,
androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are all potent inhibitors of
the formation of estrone from androstenedione. Finally, DHT acts on
the HPTA to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins (it inhibits it).
In fact, it's so potent at reducing estrogen that transdermal DHT gel
applied to the affected area has been used to treat gynocomastia (5)
(6). Estrogen is the primary culprit in gyno (Cool, although we know
that progesterone can be synergistic with estrogen in this (and other)
respects(s).

DHT also has a negative effect on Progesterone biosynthesis in cells
(7), and even has the ability to inhibit progesterone elevation caused
by estrogen (10). Therefore DHT would be (and is) very effective in
reducing gyno because it reduces both estrogen as well as
progesterone. This property holds with DHT-derived steroids, for the
most part as well, since Masteron has been found in some cases to have
positive effects in reducing breast tissue tumors(9), which is
essentially what gyno is (albeit benign).

You still with me? Good, because I want you to hold that first idea
(DHT reduces estrogen and progesterone), and put it in the back of
your mind while you read this next part, which is about your immune
system.

T helper 1 (TH1) cells secrete pro-inflammatory cytokines as well as
promoting cell-mediated immune responses, whereas TH2 cells trigger
antibody production (2). Sex hormones (such as progesterone) that
promote the development of a TH2 response also happen to antagonize
the emergence of TH1 cells. Hence, when progesterone levels are (or
the PgR, progesterone receptor) stimulated, you'll have more anti-
inflammatory cytokines floating around and less pro-inflammatory
cytokines. Aspirin, Tylenol, and all of the over the counter anti-
inflammatories are also useful as painkillers. Anti-inflammatory
effects are often highly correlated with pain killing activity. What
happens when women with arthritis get pregnant? They typically see a
reduction in joint pain. This, I contend, is due to the progesterone
and estrogen increases seen during pregnancy, and the anti-
inflammatory effects they generate.

Progesterone, like testosterone, both stimulates humoral immunity (the
TH2) and suppresses cellular immunity (TH1 response). Ergo,
progesterone has anti-inflammatory action. Deca is a progestin,
meaning it stimulates the progesterone receptor. And that’s why it
alleviates joint pains. Remember that old idea that deca promotes
"water-retention" in the joints, and that’s why it helps your joints
feel better? Bullshit. You just read the real reason deca helps
joints. Deca actually works on two fronts as an androgen—which have
well-documented effects on corticosteroids—and as a progestin to
reduce inflammation.
Let’s move on....

Estrogen exerts what is known as a biphasic (two phase) effect. At low
amounts, it is pro-inflammatory, because it stimulates the TH1 arm of
the immune system (cellular immunity) and inflammation. In high(er)
amounts, it is actually an anti-inflammatory (2). So when one takes
very strong anti-estrogens (or aromatase inhibitors), one both loses
water (because estrogen causes water retention) as well as experiences
sore joints due to the pro-inflammatory effects generated from low
estrogen levels.
Letrozole, which reduces blood plasma levels of estrogen due to
aromatase inhibition, is the best example of this. It is infamous for
causing aching joints. Letrozole decreases both aromatase activity as
well as (obviously) plasma levels of estrogen, and in addition reduces
progesterone levels (3). This is why when people use Letrozole, they
claim it takes "water out of their joints" and makes them ache. Again,
this is total bullshit.

Lowering estrogen will reduce water retention, but of equal importance
it will also limit your body's ability to produce estrogen-mediated
anti-inflammatory reactions to weight training. You lose water and
your joints hurt, which is why the myth exists that lost water in the
joints is the source of discomfort. It is true that you one loses
subcutaneous water when estrogen levels are low, but it's simply not
true that losing this water will make your joints hurt. It is the loss
of estrogen and progesterone’s anti-inflammatory effects that is
behind the aching joints. We can also make the claim that Testosterone
can have some anti-inflammatory effects both through it's
aromatization to estrogen is as well as its effects on
corticosteroids. This too, is well documented.

Now, let’s see if we can recall that first bit I asked you to
remember....the bit where I told you that DHT reduces estrogen and
progesterone. By now we have established that reductions in both of
those hormones (Estrogen and Progesterone) are caused by DHT and DHT-
derivatives, which carry many of the same properties and produce
similar metabolites.

And this reduction in Estrogen/Progesterone, caused by DHT, reduces
your body's production of anti-inflammatory and painkilling cytokines.
And this is what causes Winstrol, Masteron, etc to cause joint pain.
And as noted at the beginning of this article, when one undergoes
reductions in estrogen and progesterone, bone mineral density and
collagen will suffer deleterious effects.

So there we have it, finally: a plausible explanation for the
contrasting effects Deca and Winstrol have on joints.

References

1. MacDonald PC, Madden JD, Brenner PF, Wilson JD, Siiteri PK 1979
Origin of estrogen in normal men and in women with testicular
feminization. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 49:905–916
2. Science, Vol 283, Issue 5406, 1277-1278 , 26 February 1999
3. Eur J Obstet Gynecol Reprod Biol. 2002 Nov 15;105(2):161-5.
4. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1995 Sep;80(9):2658-60.
5. Successful percutaneous dihydrotestosterone treatment of
gynecomastia occurring during highly active antiretroviral therapy:
four cases and a review of the literature.
6. Clin Infect Dis. 2001 Sep 15;33(6):891-3. Epub 2001 Aug 10.
7. Androgens and the immunocompetence handicap hypothesis: unraveling
direct and indirect pathways of immunosuppression in song sparrows.
8. Am Nat. 2004 Oct;164(4):490-505. Epub 2004 Sep 1.
9. Nippon Sanka Fujinka Gakkai Zasshi. 1988 Mar;40(3):331-7.
10. Progesterone is not essential to the differentiative potential of
mammary epithelium in the male mouse. Freeman, Topper. Endocrinology.
1978 Jul;103(1):186-92
11. Eur J Cancer Clin Oncol. 1983 Sep;19(9):1231-7.
12. Biol Reprod. 1989 Jun;40(6):1201-7.
13. Metabolism. 1990 Nov;39(11):1167-9.
14. Effects of nandrolone decanoate on bone mineral content R, Righi
GA, Turchetti V, Vattimo A.
15. Cancer Res 1978 Nov;38(11 Pt 2):4186-98
16. Biosynthesis of Estrogens, Gual C. et al. Endocrinology 71 (1962)
920-25
17. Comparative effects and mechanisms of castration, estrogen anti-
androgen, and anti-estrogen-induced regression of accessory sex organ
epithelium and muscle.Invest Urol. 1981 Jan;18(4):229-34.
18. [Clinical aspects of estrogen and bone metabolism]
Clin Calcium. 2002 Sep;12(9):1246-51. Japanese.
19. The effects of progestins on bone density and bone metabolism in
postmenopausal women: a randomized controlled trial.
20. Bone response to treatment with lower doses of conjugated
estrogens with and without medroxyprogesterone acetate in early
postmenopausal women.
Osteoporos Int. 2005 Apr;16(4):372-9. Epub 2005 Jan 15.
21. Am J Obstet Gynecol. 2005 Apr;192(4):1316-23; discussion 1323-4.
Marshall Price...
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 4:33 pm
Guest
Taka wrote:
Quote:
I can confirm the correctness of the following article from at least 2
additional sources. In a nutshell, DHT and progesterone are the good
hormones because they are opposing the growth promoting/oxidative
stress inducing properties of estrogen in men and women,
respectively. They have also pro-apoptotic properties which may help
killing precancerous cells (in addition to e.g. hair follicles in the
case of DHT). So all men praise you balding scalp and you will be
rewarded with cancer and BPH protection! A side note for chemists:
not by a pure coincidence the estrogen molecule carries the highest
number of double bonds (in an aromatic ring) like the PUFAs such as
arachidonic acid which act synergically with it to promote oxidative
stress. On the other hand the good DHT is nearly fully saturated
molecule. IMHO the double bonds are essential for the pro-growth
signaling in all biological systems.

DHT - Is It All Bad?

by Patrick Arnold

A considerable chunk of my work day is always spent answering people’s
questions about prohormones and steroids. Of course, one of the
biggest concerns people have is about estrogen and estrogen related
side effects. Right behind that however are questions about DHT. It
seems that people have the misconception that DHT is some evil
androgen by product that serves no purpose in the body but to make our
prostates blow up and our hair fall out.

The real situation is of course much more complex. DHT is one of those
good guy / bad guy hormones that is sorely misunderstood. For many
people, it is NOT something that you want to reduce or eliminate in
the body. For some others though, keeping DHT levels under control is
probably a prudent course of action. Knowing the facts about DHT will
help you decide just which group you belong to.

Testosterone is a prohormone?

The main androgen secreted by the testes is of course testosterone.
However, in most of the body, the androgenic signal is not carried
through by testosterone. In these tissues, which include the brain
(CNS), skin, genitals – practically everything but muscle – the active
androgen is actually DHT. Testosterone in this case simply acts as a
prohormone that is converted to the active androgen DHT by the action
of the enzyme 5alpha reductase (5-AR).

5-AR is concentrated heavily in practically every androgen dependent
area of the body except for skeletal muscle. This results in very
little testosterone actually getting through to these parts of the
body to bind to androgen receptors. Instead, it is quickly transformed
into DHT, which then interacts with receptors.

This transformation serves a very important biological function in
these tissues. You see, DHT is a much stronger androgen than
testosterone – it binds about 3-5 times more strongly to the androgen
receptor. If you took away 5-AR from these tissues and blocked the
formation of DHT, then you would see some dramatic changes in
physiology.

A good case in point is demonstrated in male pseudohermaphroditism due
to congenital 5-AR deficiency. This is a relatively rare disorder,
however it is actually quite common in the Dominican Republic. In this
disorder, males are born with little or no 5-AR enzyme. They have
ambiguous genitalia and are often raised as girls. When puberty
occurs, their testosterone levels elevate normally although their DHT
levels remain very low. Their musculature develops normally like that
of other adults, however, they end up with little or no pubic / body
hair and underdeveloped prostate and penis. Their libido and sexual
function is often disrupted also.

Testosterone is the active androgen in muscle

Skeletal muscle is unique from other androgen dependent tissues in the
body. It actually contains little or no 5-AR, so little or no DHT is
actually formed in the muscle. In addition to this, any DHT that is
formed, or that is already present in the blood and travels to the
muscle, is quickly deactivated by an enzyme called 3alpha-
hydroxysteroid reductase (3a-HSD).

So at least as far as muscle is concerned, testosterone is the primary
active androgen. This is not to say that administering exogenous DHT
is not without any anabolic effect. It actually does have some
anabolic activity in the muscle, albeit significantly weaker than that
of an equal amount of testosterone. This is due to its quick breakdown
by 3a-HSD into the weak metabolite 5alpha-androstan-3a,17b-diol. If
this enzyme were somehow blocked, it is likely that DHT would exhibit
very potent anabolic effects on muscle.

It is important to understand that even though testosterone is the
active androgen in muscle, and DHT exhibits relatively little direct
anabolic effects on muscle in men, DHT is still very important for the
full performance enhancement effects from testosterone. What I
specifically mean here are the effects of DHT on the central nervous
system, which lead to increased neurological efficiency (strength),
and increased resistance to psychological and physical stress - not to
mention optimal sexual function and libido.

I have heard several anecdotal reports of individuals who have stacked
testosterone with proscar (a 5-AR inhibitor) and have noticed
significantly reduced performance enhancement effects. What’s going on
here? We know it couldn’t be due to the inhibition of the direct
anabolic activity of testosterone on muscle anabolism. Most likely it
is due to the reduction of androgenic effects in other parts of the
body that contribute to the ergogenic effects, specifically the CNS,
which is stimulated by androgens to increase neural output leading to
greater strength and greater recoverability. Another possibility is a
reduction in the production of androgen dependent liver growth factors
(such as IGF-1), since DHT is an important androgen in the liver.

Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much
discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take Proscar
learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By
reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have
fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!

How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways
that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens
activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive
antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced
RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly
block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the
activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue
showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent
inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-
androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was
the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the
secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of
gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for
estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself
cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into
particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to
be discussed in further detail in the next section.

DHT, estrogen, and the prostate

When it comes to sex hormones, few things are as misunderstood by the
general consumer as the relationship of the prostate to DHT. The
inaccurate and overly simplistic attitude that DHT is responsible for
prostate hypertrophy, and even prostate cancer predominates amongst
most people.

The real situation is, of course, much more complex. One must
understand that there are marked differences between healthy prostate
growth (developmental growth), prostate growth due to BPH, and
cancerous prostate growth.

The first period of prostate growth, deemed developmental growth, is
connected to puberty and the testicular secretion of androgens. This
takes the prostate from its prepubertal dormancy to the normal sized,
healthy, and functional prostate gland of an adult. During the early
and mid adult years the prostate stays at this stage, despite the
constant high levels of androgens in the body. However, if androgens
are blocked in the body then the adult prostate will shrink in size.
This can occur by castration, or even by blockade of 5-AR (recall that
DHT is the active androgen in the prostate).

Later in life, there is often a second stage of growth. This growth is
deemed benign prostate hypertrophy (BPH) and this growth occurs in a
wholly different hormonal environment than that of developmental
growth. Evidence is mounting that the existence of a high estrogen /
androgen ratio – a condition common in older men – is highly
correlated to the development of BPH.

Experimental studies have shown the inability of androgens with
saturated A rings (DHT related) to induce an initial condition of
prostate hypertrophy. These compounds are non-aromatizable.
Aromatizable androgens on the other hand, such as testosterone or
androstenedione can induce hyperplasic modifications of the prostate
of monkeys, but these effects are reversed by the addition of an
aromatase inhibitor.

So apparently, estrogen is a causative factor in BPH or, probably more
accurately, estrogen in the presence of a minimum, permissive amount
of androgen.

None of this may come as news to many of you, but I bet that very few
of you know that DHT can actually be used to treat BPH!! How can it do
that? It basically does this by replacing the testosterone in the
body, which then has the effect of reducing the amount of estrogen in
the body. As I started to explain before, DHT is a strong androgen
that will signal the pituitary to decrease the production of
gonadotropins. The decrease in gonadotropins will then cause less
testosterone to be produced which will in turn cause the estrogen
levels to drop. The resulting change in the hormonal milieu (high DHT,
low estrogen) then apparently results in a regression of BPH.

The clinical application of this theory is discussed in US patent
5,648,350 "Dihydrotestosterone for use in androgenotherapy". The
following illustrates the results:

"In 27 subjects in which the plasma DHT level was controlled, so as to
modulate the administered doses, said levels have been increased to
2.5 to 6 ng/ml. There resulted a decrease in gonadotrophy as well as
in the plasma levels of testosterone which exceeded at least 1.5 ng/ml
(from 0.5 to 1.4 according to the case); as to the estradiol plasma
levels, these decreased by 50%.

Among this group of subjects, the volume of the prostate diminished
significantly, as was evaluated by ultrasound and by PSA (Prostate
Specific Antigen). The mean volume of the prostates was from 31.09.+-.
16.31 grams before treatment and from 26.34.+-.12.72 grams after
treatment, for a mean reduction of 15.4%, the treatment having a mean
duration of 1.8 years with DHT (P=0.01)."

This kind of flies in the face of the traditional thinking concerning
BPH now doesn’t it?

Conclusion

People have a natural tendency to classify things as either good or
bad, with no gray areas. DHT (like estrogen) has recently been on
everyone’s bad list, and is often considered to be a hormone that
serves no function in the body except to cause harm. As you can see,
this view is far from the truth. In my opinion, the widespread use of
5-AR inhibitors such as Proscar as a prophylactic agent for people
that really don’t need it should be reconsidered. So give DHT a break.

SOURCE: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articles/arnold/dht.htm


Also recommended reading about estrogen and PUFAs on the Ray Peat
site:
http://raypeat.com/articles/

Taka

My hair's been falling out like crazy. I could care less about
muscle mass or prostate hypertrophy; I want my hair back!

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c
trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |...
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 11:19 pm
Guest
On May 16, 1:27 pm, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Taka wrote:
I can confirm the correctness of the following article from at least 2
additional sources.  In a nutshell, DHT and progesterone are the good
hormones because they are opposing the growth promoting/oxidative
stress inducing properties of estrogen in men and women,
respectively.  They have also pro-apoptotic properties which may help
killing precancerous cells (in addition to e.g. hair follicles in the
case of DHT).  So all men praise you balding scalp and you will be
rewarded with cancer and BPH protection!

   DHT is a good thing because it kills hair follicles?

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

The two points I have in mind on the subject are these:
First people who desire to save their hair by taking
anti-DHT med are being foolish in that while they preserve
their mane and their appearance to the opposite sex, they
may end up being unable to respond sexually.
Second, the concern about DHT is because the
Doc have an anti-DHT med that has been
promoted by a Big Drug company.
Ted...
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 12:41 pm
Guest
On May 17, 1:19 am, "trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com |"
<trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On May 16, 1:27 pm, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

Taka wrote:
I can confirm the correctness of the following article from at least 2
additional sources.  In a nutshell, DHT and progesterone are the good
hormones because they are opposing the growth promoting/oxidative
stress inducing properties of estrogen in men and women,
respectively.  They have also pro-apoptotic properties which may help
killing precancerous cells (in addition to e.g. hair follicles in the
case of DHT).  So all men praise you balding scalp and you will be
rewarded with cancer and BPH protection!

   DHT is a good thing because it kills hair follicles?

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

The two points I have in mind on the subject are these:
First people who desire to save their hair by taking
anti-DHT med are being foolish in that while they preserve
their mane and their appearance to the opposite sex, they
may end up being unable to respond sexually.
Second, the concern about DHT is because the
Doc have an anti-DHT med that has been
promoted by a Big Drug company.

Side effects were almost the same in the placebo group in finasteride
trials, A quick google search....http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/
finas_ad.htm And I have also read that out of the few people that did
get them, most of them found that the side effects subsided over a
period of time.

DHT does cause hair follicles to shrink over time and blocking it
prevents MPB. There have been twin castration studies too where the
twin who is castrated before puberty does not go bald.
Marshall Price...
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:51 pm
Guest
Taka wrote:
Quote:
On May 17, 6:33 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
My hair's been falling out like crazy. I could care less about
muscle mass or prostate hypertrophy; I want my hair back!

AFAIK the thinning not falling of hairs is the effect of DHT. Also
the "pattern" is specific ...

Taka

It's gotten incredibly thin, and it's coming out, too. I've
suspected I might be eating too much protein.

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c
DZ...
Posted: Sun May 18, 2008 6:13 pm
Guest
Taka <taka0038 at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
Do you like tomatoes?

Yes, to eat, yes I do. Otherwise, not so much.
Ted...
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:49 am
Guest
On May 20, 9:48 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Ted wrote:
On May 17, 1:19 am, "trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com |"
trigonometry1... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On May 16, 1:27 pm, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:

Taka wrote:
I can confirm the correctness of the following article from at least 2
additional sources. In a nutshell, DHT and progesterone are the good
hormones because they are opposing the growth promoting/oxidative
stress inducing properties of estrogen in men and women,
respectively. They have also pro-apoptotic properties which may help
killing precancerous cells (in addition to e.g. hair follicles in the
case of DHT). So all men praise you balding scalp and you will be
rewarded with cancer and BPH protection!
DHT is a good thing because it kills hair follicles?
--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c
The two points I have in mind on the subject are these:
First people who desire to save their hair by taking
anti-DHT med are being foolish in that while they preserve
their mane and their appearance to the opposite sex, they
may end up being unable to respond sexually.
Second, the concern about DHT is because the
Doc have an anti-DHT med that has been
promoted by a Big Drug company.

Side effects were almost the same in the placebo group in finasteride
trials, A quick google search....http://www.rxlist.com/cgi/generic/
finas_ad.htm And I have also read that out of the few people that did
get them, most of them found that the side effects subsided over a
period of time.

DHT does cause hair follicles to shrink over time and blocking it
prevents MPB. There have been twin castration studies too where the
twin who is castrated before puberty does not go bald.

MPB?

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

Male Pattern Baldness
Ted...
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 4:50 am
Guest
On May 20, 9:58 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Taka wrote:
On May 18, 10:51 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Taka wrote:
On May 17, 6:33 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
My hair's been falling out like crazy. I could care less about
muscle mass or prostate hypertrophy; I want my hair back!
AFAIK the thinning not falling of hairs is the effect of DHT. Also
the "pattern" is specific ...
Taka
It's gotten incredibly thin, and it's coming out, too. I've
suspected I might be eating too much protein.

Or rather too much carbohydrates ... The teens get acne and the older
guys are balding as the effect of testosterone (T) and its metabolites
carbs raise. But remember that you also need AA for these effects.
Do you like tomatoes? Lycopene inhibits T production the safer way.

I eat very little carbohydrate, except for fiber. I do eat tomato
paste and fruit, but not much. It's puzzling.

I just started eating eggs again last week (for cholesterol, sulfur,
lecithin, and methionine), and I bought some coconut oil and am putting
it on scrambled eggs along with curry powder. I don't know what to
expect, but I'm hoping for a change!

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

The effect that DHT has on the hair follicles is genetic.
Taka...
Posted: Tue May 20, 2008 3:39 pm
Guest
On May 20, 10:58 pm, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
Taka wrote:
On May 18, 10:51 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Taka wrote:
On May 17, 6:33 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
My hair's been falling out like crazy. I could care less about
muscle mass or prostate hypertrophy; I want my hair back!
AFAIK the thinning not falling of hairs is the effect of DHT. Also
the "pattern" is specific ...
Taka
It's gotten incredibly thin, and it's coming out, too. I've
suspected I might be eating too much protein.

Or rather too much carbohydrates ... The teens get acne and the older
guys are balding as the effect of testosterone (T) and its metabolites
carbs raise. But remember that you also need AA for these effects.
Do you like tomatoes? Lycopene inhibits T production the safer way.

I eat very little carbohydrate, except for fiber. I do eat tomato
paste and fruit, but not much. It's puzzling.

Too much soluble fiber has antinutrient properties - it binds other
essential nutrients as it binds cholesterol. Also depends on what you
consider fiber, some may have quite high carbohydrate content and if
you are sedentary that may be a problem.

Quote:
I just started eating eggs again last week (for cholesterol, sulfur,
lecithin, and methionine), and I bought some coconut oil and am putting
it on scrambled eggs along with curry powder. I don't know what to
expect, but I'm hoping for a change!

Depends on what change you are aiming at, if you want to eliminate/
reduce AA/Omega-6/3 from the body to reduce T/estrogen production and
inflammation it takes at least 1 year and results in worsening of some
symptoms at the beginning which you can counteract by taking
supplemental antioxidants.

If I were you I would try putting the DHT to some better use e.g. in
the gym and cut the artificial lights except for summertime.

Taka
trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |...
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 8:53 am
Guest
Quote:

   MPB?

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

MPB = male pattern baldness
trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |...
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:00 am
Guest
Quote:
   I just started eating eggs again last week (for cholesterol, sulfur,
lecithin, and methionine), and I bought some coconut oil and am putting
it on scrambled eggs along with curry powder.  I don't know what to
expect, but I'm hoping for a change!

--
Marshall Price of Miami
Known to Yahoo as d021317c

I won't expect any change. For starters eggs are a highly
inflammatory food. The coconut grease wouldn't
contribute further to this problem unlike canola, corn,
sunflower or soya oil. Eggs are a rich source
of archidonic fatty acid as is FARMED salmon
a reason to avoid both. A home raised egg
from a bird given the run of a green yard area
might be somewhat better.
trigonometry1972 at (no spam) gmail.com |...
Posted: Wed May 21, 2008 9:12 am
Guest
On May 20, 6:39 pm, Taka <taka0... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On May 20, 10:58 pm, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:



Taka wrote:
On May 18, 10:51 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Taka wrote:
On May 17, 6:33 am, Marshall Price <d0213... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
   My hair's been falling out like crazy.  I could care less about
muscle mass or prostate hypertrophy; I want my hair back!
AFAIK the thinning not falling of hairs is the effect of DHT.  Also
the "pattern" is specific ...
Taka
   It's gotten incredibly thin, and it's coming out, too.  I've
suspected I might be eating too much protein.

Or rather too much carbohydrates ...  The teens get acne and the older
guys are balding as the effect of testosterone (T) and its metabolites
carbs raise.  But remember that you also need AA for these effects.
Do you like tomatoes?  Lycopene inhibits T production the safer way.

   I eat very little carbohydrate, except for fiber.  I do eat tomato
paste and fruit, but not much.  It's puzzling.

Too much soluble fiber has antinutrient properties - it binds other
essential nutrients as it binds cholesterol.  Also depends on what you
consider fiber, some may have quite high carbohydrate content and if
you are sedentary that may be a problem.

   I just started eating eggs again last week (for cholesterol, sulfur,
lecithin, and methionine), and I bought some coconut oil and am putting
it on scrambled eggs along with curry powder.  I don't know what to
expect, but I'm hoping for a change!

Depends on what change you are aiming at, if you want to eliminate/
reduce AA/Omega-6/3 from the body to reduce T/estrogen production and
inflammation it takes at least 1 year and results in worsening of some
symptoms at the beginning which you can counteract by taking
supplemental antioxidants.

If I were you I would try putting the DHT to some better use e.g. in
the gym and cut the artificial lights except for summertime.

Taka

Or you could try a different tack and lower your AA intake while
increasing your medium chain saturated fats and you omega
3 fatty acid intake. It seems to have quicker results.
But of course I loaded on antioxidants and I started from
a far different diet than did TAKA.

Further, I am considering avoiding tomatoes, garlic and any other
food known to lower T or DHT. I doubt they are the primary
problem in overall health. Plus I've taken a dietary step that is
said to lower estradiol levels that is the use of a very
generous dose of betaine (N-trimethylglycine).
 
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