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Science Forum Index » Bio Evolution Forum » Memes controlling evolution...
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 Posted: Sun May 11, 2008 8:05 pm |
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Guest
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I was thinking about memes and evolution. What do you think of the
following idea?
Darwinism is nearly always thought of as related to genetics. However,
I think the concept could be also alive and well in the idea of memes.
You probably have heard of the idea of memes. Little ideas or thoughts
that jump from mind to mind and survive like benevolent or malicious
little organisms preying on our minds. Einstein is the greatest genius
of all time, dancing baby, eating before swimming is bad, drugs make
you cool, are all examples of memes that live inside peoples minds.
I was thinking that memes might be altering our minds, just like
farmers tilling the soil. Memes that were able to help minds survive
that house a favorable environment for the memes themselves survive
would be at an advantage to memes that were not able to do this. Also
memes that were able to kill off minds that would destroy them would
also be at an advantage over memes that were unable to do this.
Wars for a religion might be an example of memes killing minds that
would harm them. Religious extremists who succeeded in killing people
that are against their religion have helped the memes inside their
head survive.
Given the absence of genetic survival pressure, maybe meme pressure
has become much more powerful in the evolution of the human being.
Thinking this way, patriotism, religion, elitism, people mating only
with those that share similar beliefs or cultural values, could all be
exampled by memes having control over our behavior and manipulating
our genetics (by adjusting our mating practices and causing us to kill
off people having inhospitable minds for the memes to survive).
This could also be partly the reason why people are often stubborn.
The memes have genetically altered us to become resistant to letting
them go (basically killing them off). |
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| John W Edser... |
| Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 8:23 am |
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engler at (no spam) gmail.com wrote:-
Quote: Memes that were able to help minds survive
that house a favorable environment for the memes
themselves survive would be at an advantage to
memes that were not able to do this. Also memes
that were able to kill off minds that would destroy
them would also be at an advantage over memes that
were unable to do this.
JE:-
Darwinian fitness is predicated on reproduction
and not survival. Your argument represents the
Spencerian "survival of the fittest" and "red in
tooth and claw" misinterpretation of Darwinism.
Memes, like genes, exist within bodies such that
the "knee bone is connected to the thigh bone",
i.e. the selection of any one meme remains NON
additive to at least one other within the same
mind even if each meme can be mischaracterized
as separate within mathematics. To be able to
select any one meme you must also select at least
one other _as the one, same selectable complex
trait_. For a minimum model of just two fitness
dependent memes existing within the same mind,
they have to work together in an entirely fitness
dependent way in order to be selected for. As
an example, the meme "eat white bread" as it
was (unfortunately) popularized by Queen
Victoria who considered anything white to be
more "pure", must work with the more modern and
contradictory meme "eat wholemeal bread". The
net result is a modern concoction within which
the bran is mostly white (presumably
because it has been bleached reducing the
nutrient value of white flour).
Unlike most genes, memes easily leap from
person to person without a new body
being reproduced every time. The net result
of this is that an unfit meme can take over
what is just a shrinking population, killing
in a cancerous way. Like the independently
segregating but dependently selected "selfish
genes" (which remain predicated on Hamilton's
oversimplified i.e. deletion of a critical
theory constant, model) cancerous selfish
cells and selfish memes cannot be
independently selected. This means that a
gene, a cell or a meme must increase the
total number of fertile forms reproduced
per parent per population (which I define
as Total Darwinian Fitness TDF), in order
to be selected for.
It does not matter what Darwinian sub
part you choose, the only way that
it can be selected for empirically is
via an increase in TDF (which presents
the only falsifiable fitness maximand
that we have).
Regards,
John Edser
Independent Researcher
edser at (no spam) ozemail.com.au
Quote:
Wars for a religion might be an example of memes killing minds that
would harm them. Religious extremists who succeeded in killing people
that are against their religion have helped the memes inside their
head survive.
Given the absence of genetic survival pressure, maybe meme pressure
has become much more powerful in the evolution of the human being.
Thinking this way, patriotism, religion, elitism, people mating only
with those that share similar beliefs or cultural values, could all be
exampled by memes having control over our behavior and manipulating
our genetics (by adjusting our mating practices and causing us to kill
off people having inhospitable minds for the memes to survive).
This could also be partly the reason why people are often stubborn.
The memes have genetically altered us to become resistant to letting
them go (basically killing them off). |
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| Tim Tyler... |
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:53 am |
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Guest
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engler at (no spam) gmail.com wrote:
Quote: Given the absence of genetic survival pressure, maybe meme pressure
has become much more powerful in the evolution of the human being.
Thinking this way, patriotism, religion, elitism, people mating only
with those that share similar beliefs or cultural values, could all be
exampled by memes having control over our behavior and manipulating
our genetics (by adjusting our mating practices and causing us to kill
off people having inhospitable minds for the memes to survive).
SB's The Meme Machine advanced similar ideas in 1999. She attributed:
* Large brains;
* Human language;
* Some human altruism & religion;
.....to the actions of memes - making space for themselves to be
stored and facilitating their own reproductive processes by
controlling the environment in which genes are replicated.
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim at (no spam) tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply. |
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| Entertained by my own EIMC... |
| Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:53 am |
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Guest
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"John W Edser" <edser at (no spam) ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:g0cmbb$1o1c$1 at (no spam) darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:
Unlike most genes, memes easily leap from
person to person without a new body
being reproduced every time. The net result
of this is that an unfit meme can take over
what is just a shrinking population, killing
in a cancerous way. Like the independently
segregating but dependently selected "selfish
genes" (which remain predicated on Hamilton's
oversimplified i.e. deletion of a critical
theory constant, model) cancerous selfish
cells and selfish memes cannot be
independently selected. This means that a
gene, a cell or a meme must increase the
total number of fertile forms reproduced
per parent per population (which I define
as Total Darwinian Fitness TDF), in order
to be selected for.
It does not matter what Darwinian sub
part you choose, the only way that
it can be selected for empirically is
via an increase in TDF (which presents
the only falsifiable fitness maximand
that we have).
John,
What is realistically required is a 'lucky minimum' of at least one pregnant
or positively otherwise on the verge of reproducing "TDF _countee_";
Thus called (referring to "countee") because I cautiously kept my "mind"
[or, synonymously and EPTly (>~=seriously and only deceptively facetiously)
put, my to a staggeringly significant but seldom understood extent
"ambiadvantageously" evolved "Actention Selection System"] on the fact that
our feared or revered (whichever comes first ;>) moderator is American. %-}
Regards,
P |
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