As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans.

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them, namely
the neanderthals. Are there other parts of the world where people
believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

phippsmartin@hotmail.com (Martin Phipps) wrote in message news:<df8f4cb4.0312070153.2fa85da2@posting.google.com>...

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans.

There seem to be plenty of gods in Chinese mythology:

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/asia/chinese/articles.html

Sorry, I left my reference at home. It's a book from the Overseas
Chinese Library called "Prehistoric China". It's book #1301 in the
Overseas Chinese Library collection.

dsutherland7@hotmail.com (neepy) wrote in message news:<d4bd1f7c.0312070636.a42cd03@posting.google.com>...
phippsmartin@hotmail.com (Martin Phipps) wrote in message news:<df8f4cb4.0312070153.2fa85da2@posting.google.com>...

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans.

There seem to be plenty of gods in Chinese mythology:

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/asia/chinese/articles.html

They all seem to be diefications of actual people from Chinese history.

Martin

phippsmartin@hotmail.com (Martin Phipps) wrote in message news:<df8f4cb4.0312071829.2f356347@posting.google.com>...
dsutherland7@hotmail.com (neepy) wrote in message news:<d4bd1f7c.0312070636.a42cd03@posting.google.com>...
phippsmartin@hotmail.com (Martin Phipps) wrote in message news:<df8f4cb4.0312070153.2fa85da2@posting.google.com>...

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans.

There seem to be plenty of gods in Chinese mythology:

http://www.pantheon.org/areas/mythology/asia/chinese/articles.html

They all seem to be diefications of actual people from Chinese history.

Not all, but if you can't be bothered to go through the list then I
guess you are not really that interested in the subject.

Sorry, I left my reference at home. It's a book from the Overseas
Chinese Library called "Prehistoric China". It's book #1301 in the
Overseas Chinese Library collection. I read in this book about old
Chinese myths and legends and some of them might be of interest to
this group.

One story is that fire was invented when a Chinese man observed a bird
pecking at some dry wood. The man saw sparks flying and when he did
the same thing with a stone he invented fire.

Another story states that agriculture was invented when a leader in
prehistoric China took it upon himself to sample small quantities of
different grains to find out which ones were poisonous and which ones
were good to eat. Legends in China always get passed down in such a
way as to make their leaders appear as saintly as possible. It is
more likely that "volunteers" were lined up to sample different grains
and that by observing who did and did not get sick the people in
ancient China were able to determine which plants should be harvested
and which ones should be weeded out. Still, it's amazing to me to
read that the Chinese people knew about the scientific method (or at
least the concept of experimentation) way long before those of us in
the West came up with the idea.

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them, namely
the neanderthals.

believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

Perhaps Westerners are also more likely to believe in aliens too.
Most Asian people I've spoken to think that stories about UFOs are
crap but a lot of Westerners (a significantly large percentage?)
believe that there are aliens amongst us even though it flies in the
face of common sense to think that they would bother to do so, let
alone look anything like us to begin with!

I know, just when you thought I was gone for good I come back with not
one but _two_ posts with a bunch of new questions. Oh dear.

Martin

On 7 Dec 2003 01:53:14 -0800, phippsmartin@hotmail.com (Martin Phipps)
wrote:

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them, namely
the neanderthals. Are there other parts of the world where people
believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

Kuan Ti: the god of war.

Source: Chamberlain (1987:47).

Pak Tai: Emperor of the North.

Source: Chamberlain (1987:56).

The Purple Planet.

The Purple Planet is the Pole Star which, because of its fixity in the
heavens .....

Source: Chamberlain (1987) 62ff).

Steve Hayes
hayesmstw@hotmail.com
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/7734/stevesig.htm

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them, namely
the neanderthals.

Woah, <eyes widened> THAT is very interesting.

Are there other parts of the world where people
believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

There also are, literally, "little people" such as the African Pygmies.
Since some of them were in Egypt (as pets?) there is no reason to think that
some of them didn't also find their way into Europe. They'd be little
people, with dark brown skin - strange looking to Europeans back then.

Most of the Chinese "deities" are actually real people, perhaps "made
bigger" or "nicer" over time.

"Nim" <yuggya@ppc.com> wrote in message news:<hS6Cb.11661$7p2.2759@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them, namely
the neanderthals.

Woah, <eyes widened> THAT is very interesting.

Or it would be if I had anything concrete to back this up. I am in
Taiwanm right now and I've had an opportunity to talk to a couple of
people here about their "gods" and they did tell me that their "gods"
were actual people and I did make the analogy then and there about the
Chinese "gods" and Western saints... but I can't use hearsay on a
sci.* group, can I?

Are there other parts of the world where people
believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

There also are, literally, "little people" such as the African Pygmies.
Since some of them were in Egypt (as pets?) there is no reason to think that
some of them didn't also find their way into Europe. They'd be little
people, with dark brown skin - strange looking to Europeans back then.

Well, in the Netherlands, according to Dutch people I've met anyway
(more hearsay!), Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of
children) has "little black people" working for him so the idea of
elves=pigmies makes sense in this particular case anyway.

Most of the Chinese "deities" are actually real people, perhaps "made
bigger" or "nicer" over time.

All right then. Are you Chinese? What is your ethnic background? I
assume Nim is your family name.

People shouldn't forget that Buddhism originated in India and that it
was influenced by Hinduism so Chinese people may very well believe in
such gods but those gods didn't originate from ancient Chinese
mythology. As far as I know, Chinese mythological figures were based
on real people. Can we say the same thing about Hercules or Thor or
even Adam and Eve? Hercules, _maybe_, because in Greek mythology he
was nothing but a very strong person (who was supposed to have been
the son of Zeus), but Thor, Adam, Eve, they all strike me as being
purely mythological.

On 13 Dec 2003 02:54:04 -0800, phippsmartin@hotmail.com (Martin
Phipps) wrote:

"Nim" <yuggya@ppc.com> wrote in message
news:<hS6Cb.11661$7p2.2759@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of
sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I
seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years
ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them,
namely
the neanderthals.

Here's another data point for you:

In Japan people used to believe in a creature called "kappa" - a kind
of water goblin. It's my understanding that the mythology surrounding
this creature originated from China, though I don't know which region.
The Japanese "tengu" I think is native, but may also be from China
originally.

term "Chinese" is really far too broad, since there are several ethnic
groups within the borders of what we call China these days, but you
seem to be speaking only about the dominant group. Have you
investigated the mythologies of these groups?

have you spoken to people with a knowledge of the indigenous culture,
or only to the relatively recent Chinese?

The reason I ask is because I have a vague memory of having read
somewhere about a type of goblin or demon that was supposed to live in
remote places in Tibet, and I know that in parts of SE Asia there are
a variety of "goblins" or maybe "trolls" that live in forests and the
like.

were actual people and I did make the analogy then and there about the
Chinese "gods" and Western saints... but I can't use hearsay on a
sci.* group, can I?

In *this* newsgroup? <g> But here's the thing: is it possible that
there is a body of mythology that has been lost since Christianity
dominated Europe during the Dark Ages in which it would have been
clear that Odin, Zeus and other European gods were based on real
people? How would we go about eliminating this possibility?

mythologies - for example, the Tuatha da Dannan of Ireland and their
battles with the Formians is said by some to be suggestive of the
"invasion" of Britain by farming peoples and their displacement of the
prior H/G population.

Icelandic sagas that describe the deeds of the gods are not so very
different from those describing the deeds of real people - if the
Icelandic skalds who kept them intact long enough for them to be
transcribed in this century hadn't been around, would we be able to
tell the difference?

Was Perseus real, even if the medusa wasn't? Is the medusa pure
fabrication, or representative of something?

Testament is fantasy, and how much is blurred or embellished history?
Does the story of Cain and Abel recount the acts of real brothers, or
is it a vague recollection of hostilities between H/Gs and early
horticultural villages?

Interesting idea, but it looks like there's a lot of things which make
it a lot more complicated. You add a new complication yourself below:


Are there other parts of the world where people
believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made
Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

There also are, literally, "little people" such as the African Pygmies.
Since some of them were in Egypt (as pets?) there is no reason to think
that
some of them didn't also find their way into Europe. They'd be little
people, with dark brown skin - strange looking to Europeans back then.

Well, in the Netherlands, according to Dutch people I've met anyway
(more hearsay!), Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of
children) has "little black people" working for him so the idea of
elves=pigmies makes sense in this particular case anyway.

Maybe so, but ask yourself this: St.Nicolas is thought to have been a
real person who lived in Turkey during the 4th Century, and the story
of his generosity and purported miracles percolated through to western
Europe.

the story reached the Netherlands? Was it tacked onto the story
somewhere else before reaching the Netherlands? Is it an older tale
that has been rolled into the newer St.Nicolas story? Is it a newer
fabrication, like the names of Santa's reindeer in America? Even more
difficult is this question: is the St.Nicolas story directly derived
from the Turkish saint, or has a patina of Christianity been added to
a much older mythology to make it possible to keep the old traditions?

Most of the Chinese "deities" are actually real people, perhaps "made
bigger" or "nicer" over time.

All right then. Are you Chinese? What is your ethnic background? I
assume Nim is your family name.

People shouldn't forget that Buddhism originated in India and that it
was influenced by Hinduism so Chinese people may very well believe in
such gods but those gods didn't originate from ancient Chinese
mythology. As far as I know, Chinese mythological figures were based
on real people. Can we say the same thing about Hercules or Thor or
even Adam and Eve? Hercules, _maybe_, because in Greek mythology he
was nothing but a very strong person (who was supposed to have been
the son of Zeus), but Thor, Adam, Eve, they all strike me as being
purely mythological.

Yes, but if no one told you that the Chinese gods were originally real
people I suspect you would view them as purely mythological as well,
since they don't bear much relation to regular human beings nowadays.

I'm afraid there are too many unanswerable questions when it comes to
determining the exact origin of mythological elements.

simple kind of "the little people in western European mythology are a
racial memory of the Neanderthals they were displaced" proposition is
supportable. Even the Tuatha cycle of myths, which are probably much
more recent than the kinds of mythological beliefs you're talking
about, are basically relegated to "hmm. *Could* be..." status.

On the other hand, rest assured that you wouldn't be the first to have
this thought.<g> It's just that it can never be more than speculation,
so you don't see it in print.

--
Kevyn Winkless kevyn at the-winkless.net

'I never met a piece of chocolate I didn't like.'

"Nim" <yuggya@ppc.com> wrote in message
news:<hS6Cb.11661$7p2.2759@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them, namely
the neanderthals.

Woah, <eyes widened> THAT is very interesting.

Or it would be if I had anything concrete to back this up. I am in
Taiwanm right now and I've had an opportunity to talk to a couple of
people here about their "gods" and they did tell me that their "gods"
were actual people and I did make the analogy then and there about the
Chinese "gods" and Western saints... but I can't use hearsay on a
sci.* group, can I?

Are there other parts of the world where people
believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

There also are, literally, "little people" such as the African Pygmies.
Since some of them were in Egypt (as pets?) there is no reason to think
that
some of them didn't also find their way into Europe. They'd be little
people, with dark brown skin - strange looking to Europeans back then.

Well, in the Netherlands, according to Dutch people I've met anyway
(more hearsay!), Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of
children) has "little black people" working for him so the idea of
elves=pigmies makes sense in this particular case anyway.

Most of the Chinese "deities" are actually real people, perhaps "made
bigger" or "nicer" over time.

All right then. Are you Chinese? What is your ethnic background? I
assume Nim is your family name.

People shouldn't forget that Buddhism originated in India and that it
was influenced by Hinduism so Chinese people may very well believe in
such gods but those gods didn't originate from ancient Chinese
mythology.

on real people. Can we say the same thing about Hercules or Thor or
even Adam and Eve? Hercules, _maybe_, because in Greek mythology he
was nothing but a very strong person (who was supposed to have been
the son of Zeus), but Thor, Adam, Eve, they all strike me as being
purely mythological.

Martin

"Crwydryn" <baka@hornedking.com> wrote in message
news:m6bmtvsrhko2ugpiobtal9ira2ntv0j4te@4ax.com...
On 13 Dec 2003 02:54:04 -0800, phippsmartin@hotmail.com (Martin
Phipps) wrote:

"Nim" <yuggya@ppc.com> wrote in message
news:<hS6Cb.11661$7p2.2759@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

As far as I know, the Chinese don't believe in other races of
sentient
creatures existing, no pixies, no elves, no dwarves, no Gods, no
trolls, no angels, no leprechauns, nothing but us humans. I
seriously
believe that Europeans believe in such things because 30 000 years
ago
there really was a race of sentient beings living amongst them,
namely
the neanderthals.

Here's another data point for you:

In Japan people used to believe in a creature called "kappa" - a kind
of water goblin. It's my understanding that the mythology surrounding
this creature originated from China, though I don't know which region.
The Japanese "tengu" I think is native, but may also be from China
originally.

Japanese referred to the Ninpo people as "tengu." They were adepts at
stealth, slight of hand, and other such things that were seen as "magical."
If you had no idea what slight of hand was, or stage magic, and you saw a
person close to you, close up, make a glass vanish, you might think it was
supernatural. If you don't know how to mix chemical to create a smoke bomb,
then a person who can do this, who makes one and "vanishes" in a puff of
smoke might seem as if..... he vanished in a puff of smoke. You'd know
what you saw. You'd have no idea how it was done. "Those people can vanish
in a puff of smoke." That would be a true statement.

y" though is that the
term "Chinese" is really far too broad, since there are several ethnic
groups within the borders of what we call China these days, but you
seem to be speaking only about the dominant group. Have you
investigated the mythologies of these groups?

Some of the other groups would be either Moslem now, or Shamanist/Buddhist.
They are Altaic people.

You're in Taiwan, so
have you spoken to people with a knowledge of the indigenous culture,
or only to the relatively recent Chinese?

The reason I ask is because I have a vague memory of having read
somewhere about a type of goblin or demon that was supposed to live in
remote places in Tibet, and I know that in parts of SE Asia there are
a variety of "goblins" or maybe "trolls" that live in forests and the
like.

Refers to other people, sometimes vicious tribes of other people there.

As
an example of something, the Chinese have a word "ha kwei" and it literally
means a black destructive demon or spirit. But when they use that term,
they are not referring to supernatural beings at all, but to people whom
they don't like very much. But if they wrote about it: "The black demons
greatly disturbed the other students in the university who had come to study
and learn. The students didn't want to hear the noise that was being made by
the black demons." 20th century account. Not supernatural at all, but it
would sound like it. Do 20th century Chinese believe in demons? No.

t their "gods" and they did tell me that their "gods"
were actual people and I did make the analogy then and there about the
Chinese "gods" and Western saints... but I can't use hearsay on a
sci.* group, can I?

In *this* newsgroup? <g> But here's the thing: is it possible that
there is a body of mythology that has been lost since Christianity
dominated Europe during the Dark Ages in which it would have been
clear that Odin, Zeus and other European gods were based on real
people? How would we go about eliminating this possibility?

Didn't Waddell write something about a man named "Dur" claiming that it is
Thor?

mythologies - for example, the Tuatha da Dannan of Ireland and their
battles with the Formians is said by some to be suggestive of the
"invasion" of Britain by farming peoples and their displacement of the
prior H/G population.

Icelandic sagas that describe the deeds of the gods are not so very
different from those describing the deeds of real people - if the
Icelandic skalds who kept them intact long enough for them to be
transcribed in this century hadn't been around, would we be able to
tell the difference?

Was Perseus real, even if the medusa wasn't? Is the medusa pure
fabrication, or representative of something?

For some information on who Medusa may have been, please see
http://www.geocities.com/go_darkness/god-medusa.html

Keep in mind that these people wrote such things in a mythopoetic fashion.
Someone having killed such a creature: his group wiped out their group and

their ideas. "Mdusa was turned into"... notions of her in the new society
became different. She was evidently a woman from Libya.

How much of the Old
Testament is fantasy, and how much is blurred or embellished history?
Does the story of Cain and Abel recount the acts of real brothers, or
is it a vague recollection of hostilities between H/Gs and early
horticultural villages?

Interesting point . I just happened to look up something after finding a
Bible (Masonic Bible - I hope it's the same thing). Cain was doing
agriculture. Able was hunting or herding cattle (meat). The Jews do say
that none of that can be read literally.

The problem with that is that the
religion today, 20t...er, 21st century, *is* being read literally by people
who'd eradicate biology and replace it with mythology. I don't see where
that kind of thing happened anywhere else, except perhaps with the Moslem
religion; and on that I'm not even sure.

Interesting idea, but it looks like there's a lot of things which make
it a lot more complicated. You add a new complication yourself below:


Are there other parts of the world where people
believe in things like pixies, elves, dwarves, trolls, angels or
leprechauns? It could be that vague memories passed down over
thousands of years of beings like us but different have made
Europeans
more susceptable to this kind of mythology.

There also are, literally, "little people" such as the African Pygmies.
Since some of them were in Egypt (as pets?) there is no reason to think
that
some of them didn't also find their way into Europe. They'd be little
people, with dark brown skin - strange looking to Europeans back then.

Well, in the Netherlands, according to Dutch people I've met anyway
(more hearsay!), Santa Claus (Saint Nicholas, the patron saint of
children) has "little black people" working for him so the idea of
elves=pigmies makes sense in this particular case anyway.

Maybe so, but ask yourself this: St.Nicolas is thought to have been a
real person who lived in Turkey during the 4th Century, and the story
of his generosity and purported miracles percolated through to western
Europe.

But the entire story of the man, his physical appearance on the sled, all of
that, can be traced to the elder Dionysus in Greece.

Do the "little black people" originate at the same time as
the story reached the Netherlands? Was it tacked onto the story
somewhere else before reaching the Netherlands? Is it an older tale
that has been rolled into the newer St.Nicolas story? Is it a newer
fabrication, like the names of Santa's reindeer in America? Even more
difficult is this question: is the St.Nicolas story directly derived
from the Turkish saint, or has a patina of Christianity been added to
a much older mythology to make it possible to keep the old traditions?

Probably all of that.

Most of the Chinese "deities" are actually real people, perhaps "made
bigger" or "nicer" over time.

All right then. Are you Chinese? What is your ethnic background? I
assume Nim is your family name.

People shouldn't forget that Buddhism originated in India and that it
was influenced by Hinduism so Chinese people may very well believe in
such gods but those gods didn't originate from ancient Chinese
mythology. As far as I know, Chinese mythological figures were based
on real people. Can we say the same thing about Hercules or Thor or
even Adam and Eve? Hercules, _maybe_, because in Greek mythology he
was nothing but a very strong person (who was supposed to have been
the son of Zeus), but Thor, Adam, Eve, they all strike me as being
purely mythological.

Yes, but if no one told you that the Chinese gods were originally real
people I suspect you would view them as purely mythological as well,
since they don't bear much relation to regular human beings nowadays.

I'm afraid there are too many unanswerable questions when it comes to
determining the exact origin of mythological elements.

Mythopoetic telling of tales back then wouldn't be much different from tales
today. Urban legends? The fish story - Joe in fact struggles with a
fishing line and manages to catch a 5 pound fish. He shares it with his
poor neighbors who have nothing to eat. Days later, it's a 15 pound fish
that he shared with more people. Eventually, Joe struggled with a great
white shark and *fed the entire village*. Put that in writing. The
language is long lost and people have to guess at what the words actually
mean; next it's translated into many languages from the guessings.
Translation: Joe struggled with a great sea monster and fed all the
villagers... to it.

If in a future time, if technology is long gone, and people found print outs
of posts - they'd get a clear idea that trolls used this strange thing
called the internet. Not a joke: you have to know what the word means in
the context of the times, to the people using the word. Obviously, no one
means a literal troll from mythology when they say that. There were no
"wriggling worms" living north of the Chinese who referred to these Altaic
people as that. They were people. For all we know, Holdre may have been a
family name - and the members of the family might have been the equivalent
of the Crips and Bloods of today. Therefore, a "Holdre" (hol-dray) is a
wicked destructive creature. What is "a Hitler?" It's clear what that
means if anyone says it about someone - but it's based on the actual name of
one man. That is how mythopoetic stuff works.

I doubt the
simple kind of "the little people in western European mythology are a
racial memory of the Neanderthals they were displaced" proposition is
supportable. Even the Tuatha cycle of myths, which are probably much
more recent than the kinds of mythological beliefs you're talking
about, are basically relegated to "hmm. *Could* be..." status.

On the other hand, rest assured that you wouldn't be the first to have
this thought.<g> It's just that it can never be more than speculation,
so you don't see it in print.

Open speculation is good since it might give someone the idea to try to
trace the origins of such things, go digging, and find a city buried
somewhere.