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g
Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 9:07 am
Guest
Sometimes this layman ponders evolutionary mechanisms in the abstract.

Let me explain.

We are all too familiar with the wide-spread popular notion of "survival of
the fittest."
As this layman has submitted previously (and shall not beat the drum again
here), he
discerns that the expression "survival of the fittest" is at worst a begging
of a circular
logic, wherein that which is most fit survives, and the way we know --
therefore -- what
species or individual is most fit? Because it's still here.

But, again, that is at its worst. And this layman, liking to look at all
the various sides
of any idea, does not wish to bog down in any logically circular cul de sac,
but wishes
to see as much sense as can be seen. And, as far as the term "fitness"
having a pragmatic
value in research, there is no question of it. "Fitness" is the quality of
*having* survived.
That is not the question at issue. The question at issue for this layman is
one of whether
the notion of "survival of the fittest" falls into the category of logical
fallacy known as
"hoc, ergo proctor hoc."

If two motor vehicles collide at an intersection, and the driver of the one
vehicle lives
to drive another day, while the other does not, just how much can we read
into that
about which driver was the most fit to survive.

You see, if all things were equal (which they NEVER are), and the
distribution of the
force and direction of sudden negative acceleration were *precisely* divided
up between
the two vehicles, at the same locations on the vehicles... and if both
vehicles involved
were of exactly the same kind, and exactly the same state of repair, and the
drivers were
seated in exactly the same positions, and each driver was in the same age
range in which
humans have reproductive capacity, and each were of the same sex, and both
were
hetero-erotic in their choices of conjugal mates... and at least a hundred
other variables
all were identical, equal, balanced and unvarying... and only one driver
died, while the
other went home and ended up parenting at least one more child... then and
ONLY then...
would we be justified in assigning to the surviving driver a survival
resulting from a
quality called "fitness."

But, then, the question arises of, "Okay, what if we look at a larger
sampling of motor
vehicle accidents, where one driver walks away and the other goes to a
funeral home.
Can we not assume that a sufficient number of trials has taken place for
many of the
variables to wash... average out... whatever? Can we not assume safely that
the most
fit drivers, on average, tend to be the ones who survive?

Well, that depends. Are healthy robust teenage drivers not more likely to
get into, and
die from, motor vehicle accidents and hence statistically more likely not to
reproduce
than... people who have been teenagers and now are young,
still-reproductively capable
adults?

Hey, here's another issue. Aren't almost half of all motor vehicle
accidents alcohol
related? Oh, okay. Then we know that if it's almost, then MORE than half
of them
are sobriety related. Right? So, statistically we know that sober
drivers -- being in the
majority -- ought to be gotten off the streets. Right?

No? Well, why not? We are looking at the numbers, and drawing conclusions
from
them, are we not? If we remove from the traffic arteries all the people who
are in the
category involved in most of the accidents, non-fatal and fatal alike...
then we reduce
traffic deaths by more than if we remove the lesser category of drunk
drivers, do we
not?

Okay. Enough frivolity. The point can be summed up with this little saw:

****Logic constructs never lie
****Sometimes they just DON'T APPLY

In the foregoing silliness, many fallacious positings are implied. One
silly and
fallacious implication is that all drivers who die in motor vehicle
accidents can be
divided into two categories: the fit and the dead.

Another silly fallacy is to assume that all traffic accident deaths and all
plant and
animal deaths arise out of the same set of causes acting upon the same set
of
qualities, because all the variables cancel out each variable against each
other
variable.

Am I saying that all motor vehicle deaths are totally random, and that we
cannot
draw any accurate or useful conclusions from them? Heck no. But neither am
I willing to concede that we can divide things into classes, just because
clear
boundaries can be found to divide a population into two categories, with no
residuals (everyone involved in a traffic accident has a blood titer of
X-amount
of an illegal substance, or he/she does not).

The categories into which we divide things, and the algorithms we pick to
plug them into, can be factual and empirical. The categories we divide
things
into can be quite clear and precise, and leave no residuals or exceptions.
The
algorithms we pick to plug our facts and classifications into can be
pristine in
their logic. And STILL we can come out with nonsense conclusions.

If this old layman comes up with some speculative ideas on the issue of
"evolutionary mechanisms," he will try to be positive, rather than negative.
This message has just tried to clear a little fog out of the popular air on
one notion that does not seem to this layman to hold water. It remains to
be
seen, however, whether there are some mechanisms that are less foggy than
the one roasted here.

But please keep in mind that this layman did not say "fitness" is not a
useful
concept in laboratory and field. It is VERY useful and good where it is
applied as a comparative measurement of how many of a population survives
in two or more trials, where variables are minimal, where categorizations
are
appropriate, where an algorithm is appropriate to producing data that makes
sense, and where what is conceived of as an evolutionary mechanism (if that
kind of designation is made) actually is one.

g
John Edser
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:57 pm
Guest
"g" <gillawton@earthlink.net>

Quote:
Sometimes this layman ponders evolutionary mechanisms in the abstract.
Let me explain.
We are all too familiar with the wide-spread popular notion of "survival
of
the fittest."
As this layman has submitted previously (and shall not beat the drum again
here), he
discerns that the expression "survival of the fittest" is at worst a
begging
of a circular
logic, wherein that which is most fit survives, and the way we know --
therefore -- what
species or individual is most fit? Because it's still here.

But, again, that is at its worst. And this layman, liking to look at all
the various sides
of any idea, does not wish to bog down in any logically circular cul de
sac,
but wishes
to see as much sense as can be seen. And, as far as the term "fitness"
having a pragmatic
value in research, there is no question of it. "Fitness" is the quality
of
*having* survived.
That is not the question at issue. The question at issue for this layman
is
one of whether
the notion of "survival of the fittest" falls into the category of logical
fallacy known as
"hoc, ergo proctor hoc."

If two motor vehicles collide at an intersection, and the driver of the
one
vehicle lives
to drive another day, while the other does not, just how much can we read
into that
about which driver was the most fit to survive.

JE:-
The philosopher Herbert Spencer who coined the tautology "survival of the
fittest" which remains to this very day the most common identification of
what evolutionary theory is supposed to be (an amazing but entirely
unfortunate achievement) did NOT provide a defined subject for "survival" as
in: "the survival of exactly WHAT?".

Tautologies can be a predicated subject forming a non tautology or remain
just a non predicated circular argument. A subject and predicate cannot
exist within just a tautology simply because every logical connection
remains reversible. In the reasoning process only the predicate can
constitute a valid inductive inference (not the subject) requiring a non
reversible logical link in just the one way: FROM subject TO the predicate.
This is because the subject must be able to be deduced from the assumed
predicate and the predicate induced from the subject. A rational test of the
predicate is that, at the very least, the subject can be deduced from it. If
no predicate exists then no subject by deduction is all that is possible,
therefore no rationale.

Tautologies can be continuously expanded (e.g. mathematics). However they
only remain rational if they can be deduced from a NON tautology (become the
subject of an assumed predicate and not the reverse). I consider this is
what Gödel has proven. All of mathematics remains just a tautology which can
only remain rational if mathematics is entirely deductive from a predicate
outside of mathematics. I propose that this predicate is the supposition of
the universal set.

If we propose that Spencer's survival predicate remained subject to an
"organism" we end up with this non tautology: Those organisms (subject)
which survive longer (predicate) are considered fitter only because they
must eventually replace shorter living organisms over time. While this non
tautology does makes sense it is NOT necessarily correct. An organism that
only lives longer does not necessarily replace shorter living organisms over
time because it has to reproduce more to be able to do that. The correct
subject and predicate is not "organism and survival" it is "organism and
reproduction": Those organisms which reproduce more per population are
considered fitter than those which reproduce less simply because only those
which reproduce more can ever replace others over time, no matter how short
in life span the fitter organism happens to be. Not only did Spencer leave
his survival predicate without a defined subject, he also used entirely the
wrong predicate!


Today, "survival of the fittest" means "phylogenetic gene survival" where
"gene" replaces "organism" as the defined subject. However the "survival"
predicate only remains ambiguous. Here is a website which describes what
phylogeny is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogeny

As just a NON predicated tautology: Those genes which survive
phylogenetically remain the fittest only because they phylogenetically
survive! If we now employ a gene subject instead of the organism subject
(which we used above) this becomes: Those genes which phylogenetically
survive longer are considered fitter only because they must eventually
replace shorter phylogenetically living genes. However, this non tautology
remains ambiguous because phylogenetic gene "survival" is exactly the same
thing as gene _replication_ which in turn is the same as organism
reproduction. Only gene _replicates_ as "gene survival" can allow one gene
type to "phylogenetically survive longer" where in nature these replications
are all via organism reproductions. Even an exact replicate of a thing is
never "the thing in itself" simply because it can occupy a different space
and time. Phylogenetic gene replication can only mean organism reproduction
because a phylogeny (or phylogenesis) "is the origin and evolution of a set
of organisms, usually a set of species" (quote from the above website).

Gene populations expanding _within_ organisms do not constitute a phylogeny
of genes within evolutionary theory. It is the organism induction which
includes organism reproduction which remains absolutely essential for any
testable evolutionary science. In fact, each organism must also be fertile
just to be able to replicate genes phylogenetically allowing better
"phylogenetic survival"! IOW the Darwinian selectee is exactly one fertile
organism and not just any organism.

Quite obviously, the gene centric argument is just a massive
simplification/oversimplification of the Darwinian fertile organism centric
argument. Yet the Neo Darwinistic gene centric argument was and remains to
this very day, chronically misused as a _replacement_ for the Darwinian
fertile organism centric argument (which just remains invisible because of
the extraordinary level of bias that misused heuristic gene centricity has
spawned).


Regards,

John Edser
Independent Researcher

edser@ozemail.com.au















Quote:
You see, if all things were equal (which they NEVER are), and the
distribution of the
force and direction of sudden negative acceleration were *precisely*
divided
up between
the two vehicles, at the same locations on the vehicles... and if both
vehicles involved
were of exactly the same kind, and exactly the same state of repair, and
the
drivers were
seated in exactly the same positions, and each driver was in the same age
range in which
humans have reproductive capacity, and each were of the same sex, and both
were
hetero-erotic in their choices of conjugal mates... and at least a hundred
other variables
all were identical, equal, balanced and unvarying... and only one driver
died, while the
other went home and ended up parenting at least one more child... then and
ONLY then...
would we be justified in assigning to the surviving driver a survival
resulting from a
quality called "fitness."

But, then, the question arises of, "Okay, what if we look at a larger
sampling of motor
vehicle accidents, where one driver walks away and the other goes to a
funeral home.
Can we not assume that a sufficient number of trials has taken place for
many of the
variables to wash... average out... whatever? Can we not assume safely
that
the most
fit drivers, on average, tend to be the ones who survive?

Well, that depends. Are healthy robust teenage drivers not more likely to
get into, and
die from, motor vehicle accidents and hence statistically more likely not
to
reproduce
than... people who have been teenagers and now are young,
still-reproductively capable
adults?

Hey, here's another issue. Aren't almost half of all motor vehicle
accidents alcohol
related? Oh, okay. Then we know that if it's almost, then MORE than half
of them
are sobriety related. Right? So, statistically we know that sober
drivers -- being in the
majority -- ought to be gotten off the streets. Right?

No? Well, why not? We are looking at the numbers, and drawing
conclusions
from
them, are we not? If we remove from the traffic arteries all the people
who
are in the
category involved in most of the accidents, non-fatal and fatal alike...
then we reduce
traffic deaths by more than if we remove the lesser category of drunk
drivers, do we
not?

Okay. Enough frivolity. The point can be summed up with this little saw:

****Logic constructs never lie
****Sometimes they just DON'T APPLY

In the foregoing silliness, many fallacious positings are implied. One
silly and
fallacious implication is that all drivers who die in motor vehicle
accidents can be
divided into two categories: the fit and the dead.

Another silly fallacy is to assume that all traffic accident deaths and
all
plant and
animal deaths arise out of the same set of causes acting upon the same set
of
qualities, because all the variables cancel out each variable against each
other
variable.

Am I saying that all motor vehicle deaths are totally random, and that we
cannot
draw any accurate or useful conclusions from them? Heck no. But neither
am
I willing to concede that we can divide things into classes, just because
clear
boundaries can be found to divide a population into two categories, with
no
residuals (everyone involved in a traffic accident has a blood titer of
X-amount
of an illegal substance, or he/she does not).

The categories into which we divide things, and the algorithms we pick to
plug them into, can be factual and empirical. The categories we divide
things
into can be quite clear and precise, and leave no residuals or exceptions.
The
algorithms we pick to plug our facts and classifications into can be
pristine in
their logic. And STILL we can come out with nonsense conclusions.

If this old layman comes up with some speculative ideas on the issue of
"evolutionary mechanisms," he will try to be positive, rather than
negative.
This message has just tried to clear a little fog out of the popular air
on
one notion that does not seem to this layman to hold water. It remains to
be
seen, however, whether there are some mechanisms that are less foggy than
the one roasted here.

But please keep in mind that this layman did not say "fitness" is not a
useful
concept in laboratory and field. It is VERY useful and good where it is
applied as a comparative measurement of how many of a population survives
in two or more trials, where variables are minimal, where categorizations
are
appropriate, where an algorithm is appropriate to producing data that
makes
sense, and where what is conceived of as an evolutionary mechanism (if
that
kind of designation is made) actually is one.

g
Tim Tyler
Posted: Sun Jan 14, 2007 1:57 pm
Guest
g wrote:

Quote:
Sometimes this layman ponders evolutionary mechanisms in the abstract.

Let me explain.

We are all too familiar with the wide-spread popular notion
of "survival of the fittest." As this layman has submitted
previously (and shall not beat the drum again here), he
discerns that the expression "survival of the fittest" is
at worst a begging of a circular logic, wherein that which
is most fit survives, and the way we know -- therefore --
what species or individual is most fit? Because it's still
here.

But, again, that is at its worst. And this layman, liking
to look at all the various sides of any idea, does not wish
to bog down in any logically circular cul de sac, but
wishes to see as much sense as can be seen. And, as far as
the term "fitness" having a pragmatic value in research,
there is no question of it. "Fitness" is the quality of
*having* survived. That is not the question at issue. The
question at issue for this layman is one of whether the
notion of "survival of the fittest" falls into the category
of logical fallacy known as "hoc, ergo proctor hoc."

This issue has been done to death already, IMO:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/tautology.html
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.
John Wilkins
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:11 am
Guest
Tim Tyler <seemysig@cyberspace.org> wrote:

Quote:
g wrote:

Sometimes this layman ponders evolutionary mechanisms in the abstract.

Let me explain.

We are all too familiar with the wide-spread popular notion
of "survival of the fittest." As this layman has submitted
previously (and shall not beat the drum again here), he
discerns that the expression "survival of the fittest" is
at worst a begging of a circular logic, wherein that which
is most fit survives, and the way we know -- therefore --
what species or individual is most fit? Because it's still
here.

But, again, that is at its worst. And this layman, liking
to look at all the various sides of any idea, does not wish
to bog down in any logically circular cul de sac, but
wishes to see as much sense as can be seen. And, as far as
the term "fitness" having a pragmatic value in research,
there is no question of it. "Fitness" is the quality of
*having* survived. That is not the question at issue. The
question at issue for this layman is one of whether the
notion of "survival of the fittest" falls into the category
of logical fallacy known as "hoc, ergo proctor hoc."

This issue has been done to death already, IMO:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/tautology.html

That's an incredibly bad article, that needs to be revised and updated.
One day.
--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
g
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:11 am
Guest
Eloquent, John. Thank you. And I appreciate benefit of your much wider
reading.

I do seem to recall a description of selection, in nature, as being "red of
tooth and claw," in Darwin's own written words. (Perhaps I should purchase
a copy, to check back on such memories to see if they are accurate.)
Assuming this is an accurate recollection on my part, it is a bit hazy to me
where that assertion of Darwin's leaves off and
the idea behind Spencer's phrase begins.

Would be very grateful for your excellent insight into that.

Thank you,

g


"John Edser" <edser@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:eoeg0p$q07$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:


"g" <gillawton@earthlink.net

Sometimes this layman ponders evolutionary mechanisms in the abstract.
Let me explain.
We are all too familiar with the wide-spread popular notion of "survival
of
the fittest."
As this layman has submitted previously (and shall not beat the drum
again
here), he
discerns that the expression "survival of the fittest" is at worst a
begging
of a circular
logic, wherein that which is most fit survives, and the way we know --
therefore -- what
species or individual is most fit? Because it's still here.

But, again, that is at its worst. And this layman, liking to look at all
the various sides
of any idea, does not wish to bog down in any logically circular cul de
sac,
but wishes
to see as much sense as can be seen. And, as far as the term "fitness"
having a pragmatic
value in research, there is no question of it. "Fitness" is the quality
of
*having* survived.
That is not the question at issue. The question at issue for this layman
is
one of whether
the notion of "survival of the fittest" falls into the category of
logical
fallacy known as
"hoc, ergo proctor hoc."

If two motor vehicles collide at an intersection, and the driver of the
one
vehicle lives
to drive another day, while the other does not, just how much can we read
into that
about which driver was the most fit to survive.

JE:-
The philosopher Herbert Spencer who coined the tautology "survival of the
fittest" which remains to this very day the most common identification of
what evolutionary theory is supposed to be (an amazing but entirely
unfortunate achievement) did NOT provide a defined subject for "survival"
as
in: "the survival of exactly WHAT?".

Tautologies can be a predicated subject forming a non tautology or remain
just a non predicated circular argument. A subject and predicate cannot
exist within just a tautology simply because every logical connection
remains reversible. In the reasoning process only the predicate can
constitute a valid inductive inference (not the subject) requiring a non
reversible logical link in just the one way: FROM subject TO the
predicate.
This is because the subject must be able to be deduced from the assumed
predicate and the predicate induced from the subject. A rational test of
the
predicate is that, at the very least, the subject can be deduced from it.
If
no predicate exists then no subject by deduction is all that is possible,
therefore no rationale.

Tautologies can be continuously expanded (e.g. mathematics). However they
only remain rational if they can be deduced from a NON tautology (become
the
subject of an assumed predicate and not the reverse). I consider this is
what Gödel has proven. All of mathematics remains just a tautology which
can
only remain rational if mathematics is entirely deductive from a predicate
outside of mathematics. I propose that this predicate is the supposition
of
the universal set.

If we propose that Spencer's survival predicate remained subject to an
"organism" we end up with this non tautology: Those organisms (subject)
which survive longer (predicate) are considered fitter only because they
must eventually replace shorter living organisms over time. While this non
tautology does makes sense it is NOT necessarily correct. An organism that
only lives longer does not necessarily replace shorter living organisms
over
time because it has to reproduce more to be able to do that. The correct
subject and predicate is not "organism and survival" it is "organism and
reproduction": Those organisms which reproduce more per population are
considered fitter than those which reproduce less simply because only
those
which reproduce more can ever replace others over time, no matter how
short
in life span the fitter organism happens to be. Not only did Spencer leave
his survival predicate without a defined subject, he also used entirely
the
wrong predicate!


Today, "survival of the fittest" means "phylogenetic gene survival" where
"gene" replaces "organism" as the defined subject. However the "survival"
predicate only remains ambiguous. Here is a website which describes what
phylogeny is:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phylogeny

As just a NON predicated tautology: Those genes which survive
phylogenetically remain the fittest only because they phylogenetically
survive! If we now employ a gene subject instead of the organism subject
(which we used above) this becomes: Those genes which phylogenetically
survive longer are considered fitter only because they must eventually
replace shorter phylogenetically living genes. However, this non tautology
remains ambiguous because phylogenetic gene "survival" is exactly the same
thing as gene _replication_ which in turn is the same as organism
reproduction. Only gene _replicates_ as "gene survival" can allow one gene
type to "phylogenetically survive longer" where in nature these
replications
are all via organism reproductions. Even an exact replicate of a thing is
never "the thing in itself" simply because it can occupy a different space
and time. Phylogenetic gene replication can only mean organism
reproduction
because a phylogeny (or phylogenesis) "is the origin and evolution of a
set
of organisms, usually a set of species" (quote from the above website).

Gene populations expanding _within_ organisms do not constitute a
phylogeny
of genes within evolutionary theory. It is the organism induction which
includes organism reproduction which remains absolutely essential for any
testable evolutionary science. In fact, each organism must also be fertile
just to be able to replicate genes phylogenetically allowing better
"phylogenetic survival"! IOW the Darwinian selectee is exactly one fertile
organism and not just any organism.

Quite obviously, the gene centric argument is just a massive
simplification/oversimplification of the Darwinian fertile organism
centric
argument. Yet the Neo Darwinistic gene centric argument was and remains to
this very day, chronically misused as a _replacement_ for the Darwinian
fertile organism centric argument (which just remains invisible because of
the extraordinary level of bias that misused heuristic gene centricity has
spawned).


Regards,

John Edser
Independent Researcher

edser@ozemail.com.au















You see, if all things were equal (which they NEVER are), and the
distribution of the
force and direction of sudden negative acceleration were *precisely*
divided
up between
the two vehicles, at the same locations on the vehicles... and if both
vehicles involved
were of exactly the same kind, and exactly the same state of repair, and
the
drivers were
seated in exactly the same positions, and each driver was in the same age
range in which
humans have reproductive capacity, and each were of the same sex, and
both
were
hetero-erotic in their choices of conjugal mates... and at least a
hundred
other variables
all were identical, equal, balanced and unvarying... and only one driver
died, while the
other went home and ended up parenting at least one more child... then
and
ONLY then...
would we be justified in assigning to the surviving driver a survival
resulting from a
quality called "fitness."

But, then, the question arises of, "Okay, what if we look at a larger
sampling of motor
vehicle accidents, where one driver walks away and the other goes to a
funeral home.
Can we not assume that a sufficient number of trials has taken place for
many of the
variables to wash... average out... whatever? Can we not assume safely
that
the most
fit drivers, on average, tend to be the ones who survive?

Well, that depends. Are healthy robust teenage drivers not more likely
to
get into, and
die from, motor vehicle accidents and hence statistically more likely not
to
reproduce
than... people who have been teenagers and now are young,
still-reproductively capable
adults?

Hey, here's another issue. Aren't almost half of all motor vehicle
accidents alcohol
related? Oh, okay. Then we know that if it's almost, then MORE than
half
of them
are sobriety related. Right? So, statistically we know that sober
drivers -- being in the
majority -- ought to be gotten off the streets. Right?

No? Well, why not? We are looking at the numbers, and drawing
conclusions
from
them, are we not? If we remove from the traffic arteries all the people
who
are in the
category involved in most of the accidents, non-fatal and fatal alike...
then we reduce
traffic deaths by more than if we remove the lesser category of drunk
drivers, do we
not?

Okay. Enough frivolity. The point can be summed up with this little
saw:

****Logic constructs never lie
****Sometimes they just DON'T APPLY

In the foregoing silliness, many fallacious positings are implied. One
silly and
fallacious implication is that all drivers who die in motor vehicle
accidents can be
divided into two categories: the fit and the dead.

Another silly fallacy is to assume that all traffic accident deaths and
all
plant and
animal deaths arise out of the same set of causes acting upon the same
set
of
qualities, because all the variables cancel out each variable against
each
other
variable.

Am I saying that all motor vehicle deaths are totally random, and that we
cannot
draw any accurate or useful conclusions from them? Heck no. But neither
am
I willing to concede that we can divide things into classes, just because
clear
boundaries can be found to divide a population into two categories, with
no
residuals (everyone involved in a traffic accident has a blood titer of
X-amount
of an illegal substance, or he/she does not).

The categories into which we divide things, and the algorithms we pick to
plug them into, can be factual and empirical. The categories we divide
things
into can be quite clear and precise, and leave no residuals or
exceptions.
The
algorithms we pick to plug our facts and classifications into can be
pristine in
their logic. And STILL we can come out with nonsense conclusions.

If this old layman comes up with some speculative ideas on the issue of
"evolutionary mechanisms," he will try to be positive, rather than
negative.
This message has just tried to clear a little fog out of the popular air
on
one notion that does not seem to this layman to hold water. It remains
to
be
seen, however, whether there are some mechanisms that are less foggy than
the one roasted here.

But please keep in mind that this layman did not say "fitness" is not a
useful
concept in laboratory and field. It is VERY useful and good where it is
applied as a comparative measurement of how many of a population survives
in two or more trials, where variables are minimal, where categorizations
are
appropriate, where an algorithm is appropriate to producing data that
makes
sense, and where what is conceived of as an evolutionary mechanism (if
that
kind of designation is made) actually is one.

g

g
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:11 am
Guest
"Tim Tyler" <seemysig@cyberspace.org> wrote in message
news:eoeg0q$q14$1@darwin.ediacara.org...

Quote:
This issue has been done to death already, IMO:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/tautology.html


Quite understood, Tim. And let that be enough from me on it.
You might wish to comment on the question I asked John,
with regard to "red of tooth and claw." Perhaps that one has
been done to death, too.

Thanks for your wise input,

g
Guest
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:11 am
John Edser wrote:
Quote:
Tautologies can be continuously expanded (e.g. mathematics). However they
only remain rational if they can be deduced from a NON tautology (become the
subject of an assumed predicate and not the reverse). I consider this is
what Gödel has proven. All of mathematics remains just a tautology which can
only remain rational if mathematics is entirely deductive from a predicate
outside of mathematics.

Why not find out what Gödel actually did prove? As an antidote against
the kind of metaphorical rambling you seem to prefer, I suggest you
have a look at the late Torkel Franzén's page on the incompleteness
theorems at

http://www.sm.luth.se/~torkel/eget/godel.html

Quote:
I propose that this predicate is the supposition of the universal set.

Though there are certain marginal set theories with a universal set,
such a set is not a part of ordinary mathematics or set theory. In any
case, it is difficult to see how the "supposition of the universal set"
is "outside of mathematics".

--
Aatu Koskensilta (aatu.koskensilta@xortec.fi)

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus
dkomo
Posted: Mon Jan 15, 2007 8:11 am
Guest
g wrote:

Quote:
Sometimes this layman ponders evolutionary mechanisms in the abstract.

Let me explain.

We are all too familiar with the wide-spread popular notion of "survival of
the fittest."
As this layman has submitted previously (and shall not beat the drum again
here), he
discerns that the expression "survival of the fittest" is at worst a begging
of a circular
logic, wherein that which is most fit survives, and the way we know --
therefore -- what
species or individual is most fit? Because it's still here.


Don't mean to sound captious, but are you aware your prose comes out
looking like the above on my newsreader? The line wrapping is all
screwed up.


--dkomo@cris.com


Quote:
But, again, that is at its worst. And this layman, liking to look at all
the various sides
of any idea, does not wish to bog down in any logically circular cul de sac,
but wishes
to see as much sense as can be seen. And, as far as the term "fitness"
having a pragmatic
value in research, there is no question of it. "Fitness" is the quality of
*having* survived.
That is not the question at issue. The question at issue for this layman is
one of whether
the notion of "survival of the fittest" falls into the category of logical
fallacy known as
"hoc, ergo proctor hoc."

If two motor vehicles collide at an intersection, and the driver of the one
vehicle lives
to drive another day, while the other does not, just how much can we read
into that
about which driver was the most fit to survive.


[etc., snip the rest]
Bob Kolker
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
aatu.koskensilta@xortec.fi wrote:

Quote:

Why not find out what Gödel actually did prove? As an antidote against
the kind of metaphorical rambling you seem to prefer, I suggest you
have a look at the late Torkel Franzén's page on the incompleteness
theorems at

http://www.sm.luth.se/~torkel/eget/godel.html

Damn! I miss Torkel (he died recently). We will not have another like
him for some time. When people spewed nonsense about Goedel's results,
Torkel would come down upon then like the Avenging Angel of Mathematical
Logic.

Bob Kolker
Bob Kolker
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
g wrote:

Quote:
Eloquent, John. Thank you. And I appreciate benefit of your much wider
reading.

I do seem to recall a description of selection, in nature, as being "red of
tooth and claw," in Darwin's own written words. (Perhaps I should purchase
a copy, to check back on such memories to see if they are accurate.)
Assuming this is an accurate recollection on my part, it is a bit hazy to me
where that assertion of Darwin's leaves off and
the idea behind Spencer's phrase begins.

Would be very grateful for your excellent insight into that.

Thank you,

A good response, but Puhleeeeeeze, do not top post. Huh?

Bob Kolker
g
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
My comments on John S. Wilkins' comment on the article at
link provided by Tim Tyler. (See below.)

Perhaps you might rebut, or rewrite that article, John. I,
for one, would be delighted to read what you would write.

MEANTIME, let me convey that I am surprised no one (yet)
has corrected me on my rather not-quite-right defining of
"fitness" as the *concept* is well-utilized by researchers.

(See in this paragraph.) As you can see, this old layman is
about trying to understand things -- not take intractable
stances. "Fitness," as the term is used in peer-reviewed
writings applies to more than just (as I too narrowly put
it) *having* just survived. It is at least broad enough to
mean "survived and reproduced" and may might ought to
include "survived and reproduced offspring capable, also
of surviving and reproducing, and in sufficient numbers
to maintain their niche in a given ecology."

Does that accord with what some posters who are actually
in research, and actually have written papers for peer-review
would include, and not exclude, as covering your usage of it?

g
Quote:
g wrote:
And, as far as
the term "fitness" having a pragmatic value in research,
there is no question of it. "Fitness" is the quality of
*having* survived. That is not the question at issue. The
question at issue for this layman is one of whether the
notion of "survival of the fittest" falls into the category
of logical fallacy known as "hoc, ergo proctor hoc."

This issue has been done to death already, IMO:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolphil/tautology.html

That's an incredibly bad article, that needs to be revised and updated.
One day.

--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: scienceblogs.com/evolvingthoughts
"He used... sarcasm. He knew all the tricks, dramatic irony, metaphor,
bathos, puns, parody, litotes and... satire. He was vicious."
g
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
"dkomo" <dkomo871@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:eogg3v$btd$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:
g wrote:

Sometimes this layman ponders evolutionary mechanisms in the abstract.

Let me explain.

We are all too familiar with the wide-spread popular notion of "survival
of
the fittest."
As this layman has submitted previously (and shall not beat the drum
again
here), he
discerns that the expression "survival of the fittest" is at worst a
begging
of a circular
logic, wherein that which is most fit survives, and the way we know --
therefore -- what
species or individual is most fit? Because it's still here.


Don't mean to sound captious, but are you aware your prose comes out
looking like the above on my newsreader? The line wrapping is all
screwed up.


--dkomo@cris.com

YES !


Thank you for bringing attention to the fact it is controllable. How do you
control it?

I'm doing something wrong, and have experimented to try to correct it,
and failed. I tried just letting my email client program wrap at will, and
have tried wrapping where I think the news server wants me to, and it
still comes out jagged.

Can you tell me how to fix it?

JAH, too... what am I doing wrong to cause this????

Also, JAH, when I subscribed to the news group on my new, non-SCSI
hard drive, the archiving of postings is TOTALLY DIFFERENT from
the way it comes out on the old (gradually being phases out) hard drive.

Thanks, dkomo871.

(By the way, I have a PhD biologist friend whose name is Comeaux
-- corrupted French descent (:>). He is a world class vinologist.
Can't help wondering if your email address conceals another spelling.
But DON'T RESPOND TO THAT, if it is a decoy name to divert
spammers.)

g
g
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
<aatu.koskensilta@xortec.fi> wrote in message
news:eogg3s$bs7$1@darwin.ediacara.org...
Quote:
John Edser wrote:
Tautologies can be continuously expanded (e.g. mathematics). However they
only remain rational if they can be deduced from a NON tautology (become
the
subject of an assumed predicate and not the reverse). I consider this is
what Gödel has proven. All of mathematics remains just a tautology which
can
only remain rational if mathematics is entirely deductive from a
predicate
outside of mathematics.

Why not find out what Gödel actually did prove? As an antidote against
the kind of metaphorical rambling you seem to prefer, I suggest you
have a look at the late Torkel Franzén's page on the incompleteness
theorems at

http://www.sm.luth.se/~torkel/eget/godel.html

I propose that this predicate is the supposition of the universal set.

Though there are certain marginal set theories with a universal set,
such a set is not a part of ordinary mathematics or set theory. In any
case, it is difficult to see how the "supposition of the universal set"
is "outside of mathematics".

--
Aatu Koskensilta (aatu.koskensilta@xortec.fi)

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, daruber muss man schweigen"
- Ludwig Wittgenstein, Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus

Aatu,

I, too, sense in John's assertions at times some commitments to
metaphors that rest upon postulational eclecticisms different from
my own; and I realize that -- to challenge John on his own
postulatational choices -- is difficult. That is to say, GIVEN his
assumptions, he seems inclined to resort back to them.

But this does not make John so very different from most of the
brightest individuals I have met in all my humble little life. Most
of them seem to me to be inclined to have been inculcated
(acculturated) to accept certain choices of postulates in their lives,
OR to have examined many alternative postulates about this
life, and accommodated their own intuitions about them to the
point of *internalizing* them. That is to say, that they have
arrived at their own unique eclectic of stances and have -- in
their own minds -- substituted them for "givens."

In my own life and thoughts, I strive humbly, sincerely, diligently
to open my mind and to defer to the fact, at least, that other
postulational stances than those I have been "taught" to prefer,
or that I have selected for my own belief system, are not "givens"
but intellectual choices.

This allows me personal intellectual freedom to reach different
conclusions than others reach, and still appreciate their "logical"
conclusions which differ from my own.

At one time in my many decades of living, I was bound up in a
belief that only rigorous postulational thinking, whereby specifically
defined terms, crystal clear unambiguous postulates regarding them,
and precise manipulations of those by logical operations,
constituted the epitome of sound reasoning.

HOWEVER, I found myself unable to apply such definitions to the
real world, unable to be certain which postulates complied with
which material reality precisely, and unable to determine WHICH
formal logic operations apply to the analysis of which actual set of
phenomena in this "reality" where different operations apply to
different scenarios. The sensory lens (as a generalized metaphor
to encompass all the human so-called direct sensory experiencing,
direct and indirect) does not allow me -- nor anyone -- to have
exhaustive "knowledge" of all the parameters of anything, to
discern all the mechanisms at work in the progress of things I
perceive only in part, nor to know in every case what algorithm
is "the" algorithm playing out in each natural set of phenomena.

We humans are forced to rely upon "informal logic" -- although this
might seem to be an oxymoron if we think of logic as fixed and
inflexible, or otherwise not logical.

As I experience John's views, in many instances, I find I do not
agree with him, but nonetheless can see, in a sense, his wheels
turning. If I allow him in my mind his own postulational stance,
as a set of *GIVENS*, then he is usually "right."

The problem is that I do not concur with some of the postulational
stances John seems to have "internalized" at the very bottom-most
level of his hierarchy of informal logic. That being the case, I
simply read his conclusions reached, and allow myself to be
stimulated to articulate in my own thoughts where some of the
things John seems to perceive to be "GIVENS" are eclectic
assumptions (postulations) to which I believe he is entitled but,
also, which are not "self-evident" nor empirically provable nor
disprovable.

But... I know a few bona fide geniuses who are more set in their
convictions and philosophical commitments even... than John is.

I certainly do see eye to eye with you on the assertion that the
idea of a "universal set," is *UNDEFINED* in any applied
sense.

Just as Pi is indeterminate, the so-called "universe" as that which
even the smartest and most creative of mankind's greatest physicists
only attempt vainly to circumscribe in their imaginations, my not
be all there is "out there." For all we know, our universe may be
but one of many. For all we know, space cannot be proved to be
terminate. And, it would boggle the mind of ANY human genius,
I submit, to answer the question of whether matter in the entirety
of all space (which I perceive to be infinite) contains a finite
amount of mass. After all, the only way we might prove it is
determinate would be to go to the outer edge of something that
may have no edge. And if there is no end to space for matter to
occupy, then how could the amount of matter occupying it be
determinate?

We do not know. Formal logic cannot answer such questions.

Therefore, how could we even IMAGINE "the universal set" as
a concept or a term to definable?

Just as you have asserted, there is a meaning which attaches to
a "universal set" as when we make an abstract set of an entirety
of things we have circumscribed as being all that we shall
postulate to be included in it. But in nature, it is, and shall
forever be -- it seems to this old layman -- indefinable.

g
John Edser
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
"g" gillawton@earthlink.net wrote:_

Quote:
snip
I do seem to recall a description of selection, in nature, as being "red
of
tooth and claw," in Darwin's own written words. (Perhaps I should
purchase
a copy, to check back on such memories to see if they are accurate.)

JE:-
If Darwin wrote this then he was only quoting Tennyson's "In Memoriam"

"Tho' Nature, red in tooth and claw
With ravine, shriek'd against his creed-
Who loved, who suffer'd countless ills,
Who battled for the True, the Just,
Be blown about the desert dust,
Or seal'd within the iron hills?"



Quote:
Assuming this is an accurate recollection on my part, it is a bit hazy to
me
where that assertion of Darwin's leaves off and
the idea behind Spencer's phrase begins.

The phrase "red in tooth and claw" is not in itself a tautology but it is a
_gross_ misunderstanding of the rationale of nature. Humans see everything
about nature in their own perceived image where the worst possible image we
have of ourselves is human warfare. We actually think that nature is just
one almighty battleground something like our unique super tribal experiment
appears to be to us. Predators are not at war with their prey and most
battles between members of the same species remain heavily ritualized
minimizing and not maximizing, damage. Leigh Van Valen popularized a non
existent war within nature with what has become known within evolutionary
theory as the "Red Queen" in 1973:

http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/REDQUEEN.html

The "Red Queen" as Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass", runs harder
and harder just to stay in the same place. I refer to Prof. Felsenstein as
Carroll's "Mad Hatter" because of his recalcitrant misuse of tautologous
models (unlike Van Valen Felsenstein appears not to appreciate the more
humorous side of things). Nature is simply not as stupid as she is being
made out to be by Neo Darwinists. Unlike us, nature exploits fertile
organism fitness mutualism to the fullest extent possible and does not
bother with just tautologous notions of organism fitness "altruism" and
organism fitness "selfishness". Because they have no frame of reference
nobody can tell them apart, anyway.

The battles within nature are for just the one thing: to increase fitness
per fertile form per population (as a falsifiable maximand) on entirely a
MUTUALIZED basis. This can be put another way: since we all have to die
anyway because to the laws of physics and chance, the best time to die is
when your death can increase your our own fitness. Yes folks, we are all
searching for the best time to die because to pick the worst time is simply
a waste of a resource as far as nature is concerned. One of the jobs of the
predator is to help find it. If they do a good job then they will have more
and not less to eat next season. No fitness altruism is ever involved. The
clearest example I know of are salmon. The best time to die for them is
after they have spawned which provides the climax for one of the most
amazing journeys in natural history: from the Sargasso sea to the fresh
water stream where they were born. How they find where they born is amazing
in itself if that was all there was to it. This last journey requires just
humble creatures to leap waterfalls (not only fall over them) guarded by
hungry bears etc and after that, somehow negotiate a way around the many
barriers erected by man. Before mating the males physiologically change
shape in such a drastic way that their mouth becomes a dueling tool which
does not allow them to feed. They do not need to because they are all doomed
to self destruct. The mutualising point of this part of the battle is to
divide up the area where they were born into the best number of breeding
areas within which to fertilize and lay their eggs. If the salmon get this
right then their spawn will not over eat their prey only leaving a decimated
ecosystem for them to negotiate themselves back to. When this final battle
is complete tons of fish become deposited to feed the ecosystem which must
feed these dead parents fry after every adult salmon has died via its own
hand (via their over production of stress hormones).


Regards,

John Edser
Independent Researcher

edser@ozemail.com.au
William Morse
Posted: Tue Jan 16, 2007 2:12 pm
Guest
"g" <gillawton@earthlink.net> wrote in
news:eogg3n$bn7$1@darwin.ediacara.org:

Quote:
Eloquent, John. Thank you. And I appreciate benefit of your much
wider reading.

I do seem to recall a description of selection, in nature, as being
"red of tooth and claw," in Darwin's own written words. (Perhaps I
should purchase a copy, to check back on such memories to see if they
are accurate.) Assuming this is an accurate recollection on my part,
it is a bit hazy to me where that assertion of Darwin's leaves off and
the idea behind Spencer's phrase begins.

I think you are thinking of the line from Tennyson, "nature red in tooth
and claw".


And on the subject of tautology, one of the popular writers on evolution
(possibly Dawkins in The Extended Phenotype, but I am not sure) argued that
yes "survival of the fittest" was in part tautological, but that this is
often true of powerful scientific explanations.

Yours,

Bill Morse
 
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