Another person said there is no point having a rational discussion
with me because I have an agenda.

On 05 Feb 2007 I stormed the castle called sci.psychology.psychotherapy and
heard Sammybaby cry out in news:1170692790.126485.275040
@h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Another person said there is no point having a rational discussion
with me because I have an agenda.

If you read my reply to you, you might have a better understanding of what
I meant and where I was coming from. Or, you might not.

On Feb 5, 12:30 pm, ThePsyko <theps...@itookmyprozac.com> wrote:
On 05 Feb 2007 I stormed the castle called
sci.psychology.psychotherapy and heard Sammybaby cry out in
news:1170692790.126485.275040 @h3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...

Another person said there is no point having a rational discussion
with me because I have an agenda.

If you read my reply to you, you might have a better understanding of
what I meant and where I was coming from. Or, you might not.


I see "One person" and "Another person" recognized themselves. ;)

1) does not mean that some people are better off medicated. Remember
when hysterectomies were really popular. (this is just one possible
example). Women had these operations when they exhibited 'hysteria',
when they had emotions (or opinions) that were considered abnormal.
Looking back we can see the political and sexual politics issues
involved. But back then I am sure many of the doctors thought they
were treating ABNORMAL CONDITIONS that needed to be treated fairly
drastically. This does not mean that some of those women did not
benefit. For example women with advanced malignant tumors in that
part of their bodies.

Just because some people are critical of the widespread use of
pharmaceuticals does not mean that no one should be one them. Nor
does it mean that you personally should go off them.

2) on an individual level. I often hear users say that it is better
to be on than off. Fine. Make that decision. Truly, you may be
right. But I do wonder if SOME, note I said, SOME, of you are making
assumptions. One being that you simply go off and compare how you
feel. Let me get specific. I had a client who had tried to go off
several times. She was diagnosed as bipolar. I asked about when her
mood swings began, what had her life been like then. She had been
married to a very closed (emotionally that is) man was living in a big
city and was scared there. Her husband could not understand her
emotions which he considered irrational. 10 years later she decided
to go off her medications, on her own, slowly. It did not work. She
told me she would like to go off but it DOES NOT WORK. What she
called her manic episodes were actually the more dangerous ones, she
was a risk to herself and others. I asked her what she had done to
prepare for the time when she went off the drugs.

Nothing.

She was married to another man, also very closed emotionally. There
were a variety of stressful triggeres in her life - who doesn´t have
them, but there were more than the norm. She goes off the drug and
surprise surprise the pattern repeats. I told her that she needed to
prepare for that time. The details of the solution we came up with in
her case are not so important. It could include more therapy
sessions, a support group with members who have also weaned themselves
of drugs, readings about male female relations, COUPLE'S COUNSELING
which can really ground both depressive and manic states where one
person in a couple judges emotions heavily, lists of friends who can
be called day and night, plans with sympathetic psychiatrists who
prescribe milder and milder replacements and dosages and all sorts of
support from alternative medical and spiritual and therapeutic
disciplines.

'Changes in thoughts about the self.
Changes in resources.
Support from community.

Hell, even a full spectrum lamp was the ENTIRE SOLUTION for one woman
who came to me nicely hooked on fairly heavy anti-depressants.

Sure, some people may not be able to create a support system to help
them with such a transition. Others may really have some genetic
problem. This should not be received as a guilt trip by people on
medication. A blanket purist stance is often not helpful.

Currently our society does not support these kinds of approaches. So
often it requires more space, time, resources than some people have.
But in presenting the idea and fighting the horrible assumptions and
practices of the current system can perhaps help move us to a place
where problems are dealt with more holistically.

AS it is now instead of fixing our society to make it feel right for
us, we are more and more finding technologies to fix us to adapt to
things that feel bad.

When I was in school the Soviet System was always criticized because
the citizens were forced to serve the system rather than the
reverse.

John Jones has a more purist position than mine when it comes to
individuals and how they deal with their pain. Nevertheless I am
sympathetic. I think the current drug fad will look very much like
the hysterectomies described above in 30 years or so.

I have strong opinions about this.
One person said that people who don't need the medications are the
ones who are so strongly negative. This is not true. Many of the
strongest critics are those who once needed them.
Another person said there is no point having a rational discussion
with me because I have an agenda. Strong opinions equal an agenda.
Strange.

How irrational?

FYI

alt.support.depression.manic is the usenet forum chartered for those
living with "extremely serious depression problems".

Alt.support.depression is chartered for people living with plain ole
depression.

Alt.support.depression.medication is explicitly chartered as a
*subgroup* to alt.support.depression for the discussion of
antidepressants (and nothing but antidepressants).

"Marcia" is just the latest of an endless stream of irrational posters
who falsely believe that their having to live with "extremely
serious depression problems" entitles them to annoy, abuse, and
harass people living with mild to moderate depression who utilize
alt.support.depression.medication for the purpose
alt.support.depression.medication is chartered for: discussion of
antidepressants when it comes to persons other then those living with
"extremely serious depression problems" that ASD-manic is chartered
for.

AS it is now instead of fixing our society to make it feel right for
us, we are more and more finding technologies to fix us to adapt to
things that feel bad.

When I was in school the Soviet System was always criticized because
the citizens were forced to serve the system rather than the
reverse.

Speak of the devil.

On Feb 5, 8:26 am, "Sammybaby" <roastfreest...@yahoo.com> wrote:

AS it is now instead of fixing our society to make it feel right for
us, we are more and more finding technologies to fix us to adapt to
things that feel bad.

When I was in school the Soviet System was always criticized because
the citizens were forced to serve the system rather than the
reverse.

Speak of the devil.

The US Mental Health Professionals aren't the only professionals (lol)
who are making themselves the laughingstock of the world by their
emulating the tactics of Nazi and Soviet Mental Health "professionals
lol"

The British Psychological Society - The Secret Brotherhoodhttp://www.nhsexposed.com/healthworkers/psychology/british-psychologi...

"Scandal has hit the once quiet British Psychological Society.

Tonight the organisation has been reeling from accusations comparing
its conduct to the Salem witches trials of 1692.

This is of course not the first time a
regulatory body has been accused of taking this radical stance to
silence
its critics.

A number of professionals have unanimously accused the organisation
acting
as a "soviet style regime".

END EXCERPT

For entire story see...

http://www.nhsexposed.com/healthworkers/psychology/british-psychologi...

On Feb 5, 3:55 pm, "Linda Gore" <Indomitab...@netzero.com> wrote:

FYI

alt.support.depression.manic is the usenet forum chartered for those
living with "extremely serious depression problems".

Alt.support.depression is chartered for people living with plain ole
depression.

Alt.support.depression.medication is explicitly chartered as a
*subgroup* to alt.support.depression for the discussion of
antidepressants (and nothing but antidepressants).

"Marcia" is just the latest of an endless stream of irrational posters
who falsely believe that their having to live with "extremely
serious depression problems" entitles them to annoy, abuse, and
harass people living with mild to moderate depression who utilize
alt.support.depression.medication for the purpose
alt.support.depression.medication is chartered for: discussion of
antidepressants when it comes to persons other then those living with
"extremely serious depression problems" that ASD-manic is chartered
for.

lol. Gee, Linda, I could have *sworn* you said you never *read* my
messages. ;)

"marcia" <desi...@insight.rr.com> wrote in message

news:1170710212.573462.93130@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...



On Feb 5, 3:55 pm, "Linda Gore" <Indomitab...@netzero.com> wrote:

FYI

alt.support.depression.manic is the usenet forum chartered for those
living with "extremely serious depression problems".

Alt.support.depression is chartered for people living with plain ole
depression.

Alt.support.depression.medication is explicitly chartered as a
*subgroup* to alt.support.depression for the discussion of
antidepressants (and nothing but antidepressants).

"Marcia" is just the latest of an endless stream of irrational posters
who falsely believe that their having to live with "extremely
serious depression problems" entitles them to annoy, abuse, and
harass people living with mild to moderate depression who utilize
alt.support.depression.medication for the purpose
alt.support.depression.medication is chartered for: discussion of
antidepressants when it comes to persons other then those living with
"extremely serious depression problems" that ASD-manic is chartered
for.

lol. Gee, Linda, I could have *sworn* you said you never *read* my
messages. ;)

Outed! Linda is outed again!!!

But she didn't mention that her "home" newsgroups are
alt.support.spandex.engineering and alt.whimper.plewbs

You did way better than me. So far, she has been able to resist
responding to my cutting, urbane, well-reasoned posts. But you obviously
out-cut, out-urbaned, and out-reasoned me and cut through her
formidababble defenses. You go!

card xii

On Feb 5, 4:24 pm, "Card XII" <blotspar...@sciencefrontiers.com
wrote:
"marcia" <desi...@insight.rr.com> wrote in message

news:1170710212.573462.93130@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...



On Feb 5, 3:55 pm, "Linda Gore" <Indomitab...@netzero.com> wrote:

FYI

alt.support.depression.manic is the usenet forum chartered for
those living with "extremely serious depression problems".

Alt.support.depression is chartered for people living with plain
ole depression.

Alt.support.depression.medication is explicitly chartered as a
*subgroup* to alt.support.depression for the discussion of
antidepressants (and nothing but antidepressants).

"Marcia" is just the latest of an endless stream of irrational
posters who falsely believe that their having to live with
"extremely serious depression problems" entitles them to annoy,
abuse, and harass people living with mild to moderate depression
who utilize alt.support.depression.medication for the purpose
alt.support.depression.medication is chartered for: discussion of
antidepressants when it comes to persons other then those living
with "extremely serious depression problems" that ASD-manic is
chartered for.

lol. Gee, Linda, I could have *sworn* you said you never *read* my
messages. ;)

Outed! Linda is outed again!!!

But she didn't mention that her "home" newsgroups are
alt.support.spandex.engineering and alt.whimper.plewbs

You did way better than me. So far, she has been able to resist
responding to my cutting, urbane, well-reasoned posts. But you
obviously out-cut, out-urbaned, and out-reasoned me and cut through
her formidababble defenses. You go!

card xii

Is that alt.support.spandex.engineering chartered for people with
*extremely serious* spandex engineering problems? ;)

On Feb 5, 4:24 pm, "Card XII" <blotspar...@sciencefrontiers.com
wrote:
"marcia" <desi...@insight.rr.com> wrote in message

news:1170710212.573462.93130@m58g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...



On Feb 5, 3:55 pm, "Linda Gore" <Indomitab...@netzero.com> wrote:

FYI

alt.support.depression.manic is the usenet forum chartered for those
living with "extremely serious depression problems".

Alt.support.depression is chartered for people living with plain ole
depression.

Alt.support.depression.medication is explicitly chartered as a
*subgroup* to alt.support.depression for the discussion of
antidepressants (and nothing but antidepressants).

"Marcia" is just the latest of an endless stream of irrational posters
who falsely believe that their having to live with "extremely
serious depression problems" entitles them to annoy, abuse, and
harass people living with mild to moderate depression who utilize
alt.support.depression.medication for the purpose
alt.support.depression.medication is chartered for: discussion of
antidepressants when it comes to persons other then those living with
"extremely serious depression problems" that ASD-manic is chartered
for.

lol. Gee, Linda, I could have *sworn* you said you never *read* my
messages. ;)

Outed! Linda is outed again!!!

But she didn't mention that her "home" newsgroups are
alt.support.spandex.engineering and alt.whimper.plewbs

You did way better than me. So far, she has been able to resist
responding to my cutting, urbane, well-reasoned posts. But you obviously
out-cut, out-urbaned, and out-reasoned me and cut through her
formidababble defenses. You go!

card xii

Is that alt.support.spandex.engineering chartered for people with
*extremely serious* spandex engineering problems?

On Feb 5, 8:26 am, "Sammybaby" <roastfreest...@yahoo.com> wrote:





1) does not mean that some people are better off medicated. Remember
when hysterectomies were really popular. (this is just one possible
example). Women had these operations when they exhibited 'hysteria',
when they had emotions (or opinions) that were considered abnormal.
Looking back we can see the political and sexual politics issues
involved. But back then I am sure many of the doctors thought they
were treating ABNORMAL CONDITIONS that needed to be treated fairly
drastically. This does not mean that some of those women did not
benefit. For example women with advanced malignant tumors in that
part of their bodies.

Just because some people are critical of the widespread use of
pharmaceuticals does not mean that no one should be one them. Nor
does it mean that you personally should go off them.

2) on an individual level. I often hear users say that it is better
to be on than off. Fine. Make that decision. Truly, you may be
right. But I do wonder if SOME, note I said, SOME, of you are making
assumptions. One being that you simply go off and compare how you
feel. Let me get specific. I had a client who had tried to go off
several times. She was diagnosed as bipolar. I asked about when her
mood swings began, what had her life been like then. She had been
married to a very closed (emotionally that is) man was living in a big
city and was scared there. Her husband could not understand her
emotions which he considered irrational. 10 years later she decided
to go off her medications, on her own, slowly. It did not work. She
told me she would like to go off but it DOES NOT WORK. What she
called her manic episodes were actually the more dangerous ones, she
was a risk to herself and others. I asked her what she had done to
prepare for the time when she went off the drugs.

Nothing.

She was married to another man, also very closed emotionally. There
were a variety of stressful triggeres in her life - who doesn´t have
them, but there were more than the norm. She goes off the drug and
surprise surprise the pattern repeats. I told her that she needed to
prepare for that time. The details of the solution we came up with in
her case are not so important. It could include more therapy
sessions, a support group with members who have also weaned themselves
of drugs, readings about male female relations, COUPLE'S COUNSELING
which can really ground both depressive and manic states where one
person in a couple judges emotions heavily, lists of friends who can
be called day and night, plans with sympathetic psychiatrists who
prescribe milder and milder replacements and dosages and all sorts of
support from alternative medical and spiritual and therapeutic
disciplines.

'Changes in thoughts about the self.
Changes in resources.
Support from community.

Hell, even a full spectrum lamp was the ENTIRE SOLUTION for one woman
who came to me nicely hooked on fairly heavy anti-depressants.

Sure, some people may not be able to create a support system to help
them with such a transition. Others may really have some genetic
problem. This should not be received as a guilt trip by people on
medication. A blanket purist stance is often not helpful.

Currently our society does not support these kinds of approaches. So
often it requires more space, time, resources than some people have.
But in presenting the idea and fighting the horrible assumptions and
practices of the current system can perhaps help move us to a place
where problems are dealt with more holistically.

AS it is now instead of fixing our society to make it feel right for
us, we are more and more finding technologies to fix us to adapt to
things that feel bad.

When I was in school the Soviet System was always criticized because
the citizens were forced to serve the system rather than the
reverse.

John Jones has a more purist position than mine when it comes to
individuals and how they deal with their pain. Nevertheless I am
sympathetic. I think the current drug fad will look very much like
the hysterectomies described above in 30 years or so.

I have strong opinions about this.
One person said that people who don't need the medications are the
ones who are so strongly negative. This is not true. Many of the
strongest critics are those who once needed them.
Another person said there is no point having a rational discussion
with me because I have an agenda. Strong opinions equal an agenda.
Strange.

How irrational?

FYI

alt.support.depression.manic is the usenet forum chartered for those
living with "extremely serious depression problems".

Alt.support.depression is chartered for people living with plain ole
depression.

Alt.support.depression.medication is explicitly chartered as a
*subgroup* to alt.support.depression for the discussion of
antidepressants (and nothing but antidepressants).

From m...@mbsystem.u-net.com Sun Mar 16 05:24:44 1997
Path:

From m...@mbsystem.u-net.com Mon Mar 31 10:44:05 1997
Path: