"Torsten Brinch" <iaotb@inet.uni2.dk> wrote in message news:sed6009oagrnqufdhggkptss0mc5kg33hr@4ax.com...
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004 23:18:06 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie
wrote:

'The prison meals cost, on average, 80 to 90 cents. Vegetarian
diets are accommodated. Last October, the U.S. Bureau of
Prisons declared that prisoners have a right to vegetarian and
vegan meals, resulting in huge financial savings as some prison
departments cut meat consumption by nearly 50 percent by
substituting the healthier textured soy protein alternative for meat.

Now, I am really not much to soy, but it is a good point nonetheless.

http://www.nexusmagazine.com/soydangers.html ?

Meat does not give you best value for your dollar.

"Right now we're talking with the food service provider to see if
(A) it will cost more, because we just cut back on food service;
and (B) if it will require more staff." Consolidated Foods is the
jail food vendor.
http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/stories/64943.php

On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:27:14 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie
wrote:
..
"Right now we're talking with the food service provider to see if
(A) it will cost more, because we just cut back on food service;
and (B) if it will require more staff." Consolidated Foods is the
jail food vendor.
http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/stories/64943.php

Yes of course there could be extra costs, otoh, American ingenuity ought
to be able to make a good basic vegetarian meal,

which those who'd like
to spice it up with a meat sidedish could combine it with

"ta" <ta33@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:q0pMb.32452$qC.870@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

"pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie> wrote in message
..
Meat-eating is directly associated with many of those bigger
issues.

Is it meat eating in general, or *excessive* meat eating? Are
there
statistics or studies that reference the life spans of people
who eat
moderate amounts of eat, as opposed to those that eat at McDs 5
times a
week? I would imagine the key factor in determining longevity
and health
would be the amount of meat one consumes. For example, if I ate
one lean
steak and 2 chicken breasts, 3 broiled fish, and a handful of
eggs and
glasses of milk per week (and the rest a healthy veggie diet), I
would
imagine the negative health consequences to be minimal (although
tbh I don't
know for certain).
..
'The Cornell-China-Oxford Project is a massive survey of more
than 10,000 families in mainland China and Taiwan designed to
study diet, lifestyle and disease across the far reaches of China.
By investigating simultaneously more diseases and more dietary
characteristics than any other study to date, the project has
generated the most comprehensive database in the world on the
multiple causes of disease. Much of the research behind the
pyramid is based on the China project's research findings.
..
"This pyramid reflects the growing body of research that suggests
that Americans will not reduce their rate of cancers,
cardiovascular
disease and other chronic, degenerative diseases until they shift
their diets away from animal-based foods to plant-based foods,"
Campbell said. "Evidence suggests that eating even small amounts
of animal- based foods is linked at least for many individuals to
significantly higher rates of cancers and cardiovascular diseases
typically found in the United States." Further, he reported last
year,
merely eating some low-fat foods or complying with current U.S.
dietary recommendations is unlikely to prevent much disease.
The dietary recommendations, Campbell said, do not go far
enough in reducing the total fat content of the diet, or, more to
the point, in advocating the exchange of foods of animal origin
for
foods of plant origin.
..
"The nutrient composition of the traditional rural Asian diet is
very
similar to the Mediterranean diet in that both are largely
plant-based
and both pyramids recommend that meat be consumed no more
than once a month or more often in very small amounts," said
T. Colin Campbell, Cornell professor of nutritional biochemistry,
co-chair of the conference and director of the
Cornell-China-Oxford
Project. "However, the Asian diet, which is significantly lower in
total fat, may prove to be an even more healthful diet," he added.
'
http://www.news.cornell.edu/general/Dec95/asianpyramid.ssl.html

"The Asian Diet Pyramid emphasizes a wide base of rice, rice
products,
noodles, breads and grains, preferably whole grain and minimally
processed
foods, topped by another large band of fruits, vegetables, legumes,
nuts and
seeds. Daily physical exercise, a small amount of vegetable oil and
a
moderate consumption of plant-based beverages, including tea
(especially
black and green), sake, beer and wine also are recommended daily.
Small
daily servings of dairy products (low fat) or fish are optional;
sweets,
eggs and poultry are recommended no more than weekly, and red meat
no more
than monthly."

So moderate amounts of animal products are not necessarily deadly
then,
right?

Why do you think it is recommended that animal-based foods be eaten
no more than sparingly?

Because eating animal-based foods more than sparingly has negative
health
consequences, but eating them sparingly necessarily does not.

The following study abstract shows that eating fish, or meat sparingly
increases mortality from ischaemic heart disease .

Reference: Am J Clin Nutr 1998; 67:412-420.

MORTALITY AMONG VEGETARIANS AND NON-VEGETARIANS

Objective: To compare the mortality rates of vegetarians and
non-vegetarians.
Design: Collaborative analysis using original data from five prospective
studies.
Death rate ratios for vegetarians compared to non-vegetarians were
calculated
for ischaemic heart disease, cerebrovascular disease, cancers of the
stomach,
large bowel, lung, breast and prostate, and for all causes of death. All
results
were adjusted for age, sex and smoking. A random effects model was used
to calculate pooled estimates of effect for all studies combined. Setting:
USA,
UK and Germany.

Subjects: 76,172 men and women aged 16-89 years at recruitment.
Vegetarians were those who did not eat any meat or fish (n = 27,808).
Non-vegetarians were from a similar background to the vegetarians
within each study. Results: After a mean of 10.6 years of follow-up
there were 8330 deaths before the age of 90 years, including 2264
deaths from ischaemic heart disease. In comparison with non-vegetarians,
vegetarians had a 24% reduction in mortality from ischaemic heart disease
(death rate ratio 0.76, 95% CI 0.62-0.94). The reduction in mortality
among vegetarians varied significantly with age at death: rate ratios for
vegetarians compared to non-vegetarians were 0.55 (95% CI 0.35-0.85),
0.69 (95% CI 0.53-0.90) and 0.92 (95% CI 0.73-1.16) for deaths from
ischaemic heart disease at ages <65, 65-79 and 80-89 years, respectively.
**When the non-vegetarians were divided into regular meat eaters (who
ate meat at least once a week) and semi-vegetarians (who ate fish only or
ate meat less than once a week), the ischaemic heart disease death rate
ratios compared to regular meat eaters were 0.78 (95% CI 0.68-0.89) in
semi-vegetarians and 0.66 (95% CI 0.53-0.83) in vegetarians (test for
trend P < 0.001).** There were no significant differences between
vegetarians and non-vegetarians in mortality from the other causes of
death examined. Conclusion: Vegetarians have a lower risk of dying
from ischaemic heart disease than do non-vegetarians.
Reference: Public Health Nutrition 1998; 1(1):33-41.
http://www.extension.iastate.edu/nutrition/8aug21.html
(**emphasis added)

Vegetarians (vegans) or lacto-ovo vegetarians?

OBSERVED-TO-EXPECTED CORONARY
HEART DISEASE MORTALITY IN ADVENTIST MEN
Total Vegetarians 14%
Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians 39%
Meat Users 56%
Phillips et al. (Amer. J. of Clinical Nutrition, 1978, 31: S191-S198

More evidence that eating animal-based foods in moderation
or sparingly increases mortality rates;

RELATIVE risk of breast cancer among Japanese woman
Meat Eggs
Butter/cheese
less than once per week 1.0 1.0 1.0
2-4 times per week 2.55 1.91 2.10
almost daily 3.83 2.86 3.23
(from a paper by Hirayama cited in John Scharffenberg's
"Problems with Meat", 1989)

Meat Use and Ovary Cancer Death Rates
Lacto-ovo-vegetarian Adventists 15.9/100,000
Adventists using meat 1-3 times per week 18.0/100,000
General population 24.0/100,000
[Phillips R. et al. "Environmental Aspects of Cancer: The Role
of Macro and Micro Components of Foods" 1983]

Obviously not because such foods are healthful!

Personally, I don't eat animal products at all, as you know, but by the
same
token, I think we should be brutally honest about the true nature of
meat
eating.

Totally.

The bottom line to me, regardless of my personal choices and
philosophical views, is that meat eating per se is not inherently
unhealthy.

Yes, it is, for us. See above.

The "western diet" most certainly is, but I'm quite convinced that there
are
other factors far more relevant to overall health than the occasional
consumption of animal products. Even primitive foraging cultures gobbled
up
the occasional lizard or egg or animal carcass to survive, despite their
overwhelmingly plant-based diet.

To augment their diet if needed, to survive. As a fall-back food, which
while providing for a nutritional need, cannot be regarded as optimal.

The impromptu example I gave aboves was a "largely plant-based"
diet.
Just change "one lean steak a week" to "one lean steak a month".

Meat is deadly to the animal you're eating.

Absolutely, but that's another argument entirely.

I'm tempted to get metaphysical here, but.. another time.

Flesh is putrefactive. Toxic by-products are produced which
are a burden to our system, even when consumed sparingly.

True, but the effects are not entirely negative (to only point out the
negative is not fair). In my *opinion*, the negatives far outweigh the
positive, and there is absolutely no reason to eat meat in modern
western
society, but to argue that even minimal amounts of animal products are
deadly sounds too much like dogma to me, without solid scientific
evidence
that that is indeed the case.

I think we can effectively argue that a strictly non-animal based diet
is
the *ideal* diet, but eating moderate amounts of meat is not deadly.

See above. That is indeed the case.

Why
would anyone not eat the ideal diet? Because our eating habits are
dictated
primarily by our culture, and our culture says its OK to use animals as
food, and just as importantly, meat tastes good, and that's a hard thing
for
people to change.

Meat has no flavour. The taste is in the fat.

("The combination of fat with sugar or fat with salt seems to have
a very particular neurochemical effect on the brain," Ann Kelley, a
professor at the University of Wisconsin (search) who co-authored
the unpublished study, said on the Fox News Channel. "What that
does is release certain chemicals that are similar to drugs, like heroin
and morphine."

"Just that taste of the fat will immediately release these substances
into the brain and actually make us have an emotional response to
the food," Kelley said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93031,00.html )

Animal product consumption and mortality because of all
causes combined, coronary heart disease, stroke, diabetes,
and cancer in Seventh-day Adventists.
Snowdon DA.
Division of Epidemiology, School of Public Health, University
of Minnesota, Minneapolis.
This report reviews, contrasts, and illustrates previously
published
findings from a cohort of 27,529 California Seventh-day Adventist
adults who completed questionnaires in 1960 and were followed
for mortality between 1960 and 1980. Within this population, meat
consumption was positively associated with mortality because of
all
causes of death combined (in males), coronary heart disease (in
males and females), and diabetes (in males). Egg consumption was
positively associated with mortality because of all causes
combined
(in females), coronary heart disease (in females), and cancers of
the
colon (in males and females combined) and ovary. Milk consumption
was positively associated with only prostate cancer mortality, and
cheese consumption did not have a clear relationship with any
cause
of death. The consumption of meat, eggs, milk, and cheese did not
have negative associations with any of the causes of death
investigated.
PMID: 3046303 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE

"If you step back and look at the data, the optimum amount
of red meat you eat should be zero."
-- Walter Willett, M.D., of Brigham and Women's Hospital,
director of a study that found a close correlation between
red meat consumption and colon cancer.

"Willett advocates the "Mediterranean diet" of the trim, hardy
peoples of
southern Italy and Greece. The Mediterranean diet includes plenty of
tomatoes and other fruits and vegetables, whole grains and olive
oil, with
most dairy products consumed moderately in fermented form like
yogurt or
cheese."

http://www.umich.edu/~newsinfo/MT/96/Fall96/mta1f96.html

The Mediterranean diet does advocate small amounts of meat, fish,
and dairy,
as in my example above.

"However, the Asian diet, which is significantly lower in
total fat, may prove to be an even more healthful diet," he added. '
http://www.news.cornell.edu/general/Dec95/asianpyramid.ssl.html

But which also includes small, optional amounts of animal products.

Advises *no more* than small optional amounts. (See above.)

Willett also said; "If you step back and look at the data, the
optimum amount of red meat you eat should be zero."

I agree with his interpretation of the data, but it is an interpretation
nonetheless. My point is that we should acknowledge that meat-centric
diets
are terribly unhealthy, and also acknowledge that small amounts of meat
are
not terribly unhealthy. At this point, then we have to move to other
arguments (ethical, environmental etc.). Advocating a vegan diet and
acknowledging the (few) benefits of meat eating are not contradictory
imo.

Benefits?

You and I might have different values than meat eaters, but that does
not
alter the fact that eating meat, as a matter of rule, is not inherently
deadly.

See above. (disregarding common infections)

"All foods from animal sources, especially red meat as illustrated
on the
pyramid was used sparingly. Total red meat and poultry consumed was
about 15
oz per week. Fish intake varied between countries but overall was
slightly
higher, about 5-15 oz per week

See above.

Although the available data can not be definitive, there is
evidence that
suggests red meat is associated with colon cancer, prostate cancer
and heart
disease . We can not assume the risk is due solely to the fat
content, but
possibly the carcinogens formed from cooking. Further more, animal
products
contain no fiber or antioxidants and may displace plant based foods
that do
contain these important elements."

http://www.cheshire-med.com/services/dietary/nutrinew/mediter.html

See; http://www.iol.ie/~creature/BiologicalAdaptations.htm .

"Torsten Brinch" <iaotb@inet.uni2.dk> wrote in message
news:8se6001pvbrign59vaiqc16bl5miajov1d@4ax.com...
On Tue, 13 Jan 2004 00:27:14 -0000, "pearl" <tea@signguestbook.ie
wrote:
..
"Right now we're talking with the food service provider to see if
(A) it will cost more, because we just cut back on food service;
and (B) if it will require more staff." Consolidated Foods is the
jail food vendor.
http://www.madison.com/captimes/news/stories/64943.php

Yes of course there could be extra costs, otoh, American ingenuity ought
to be able to make a good basic vegetarian meal,

Of course.

which those who'd like
to spice it up with a meat sidedish could combine it with

Check it out..

'When we heard the warden describe the change in prison behavior,
we thought about the question we posed to Dr. Neal Barnard in our
24 Carrot Award Interview http://www.vegparadise.com/24carrot44.html.
We asked Dr. Barnard, "We often hear that vegetarians are less
aggressive, calmer, more peaceful people. Is there any medical evidence
to support this view?"

Dr. Barnard answered as follows:
"Yes. A Massachusetts study on male aging showed that men who had
higher levels of SHBG (sex-hormone binding globulin) in their blood
were rated by their wives as less aggressive and less domineering.
SHBG is a protein that binds to testosterone and reduces its activity,
which is generally a good thing. As it happens, high fiber diets boost
SHBG."

Anglen echoed Dr. Barnard's comments about vegetarians on high
fiber diets being less violent. The NEWSTART prisoners are housed
together in one section of the building. "When there is a violent
outbreak,
90% of the time it's on the non-vegetarian side of the facility," says
Anglen. A vegan himself, Anglen says there are rare occurrences of
violence on the vegan side of the prison.

"There is a noticeable difference in the personalities of the vegetarian
inmates. They smile more, are fully racially integrated, attend religious
classes and anger management classes eagerly," he told VIP. "Within
10 days the vegan inmates express improvement in how they feel."

Anglen detailed some of the health improvements of the vegan inmates.
He described how diabetics were able to rid themselves of medications,
a good number saw their skin conditions improved, many lost excess
weight, and most felt more energetic.

Among the non-vegetarian inmates there is little mixing and more
inter-racial fighting. When they are released, there is a 70 to 80% rate
of recidivism. In the four years the prison has operated, only 30 to 40
of the NEWSTART inmates have returned. "We have a waiting list to
get into the program," he says.

The Victor Valley Medium Correctional Facility is a privately owned
prison that is operated by Maranatha Corrections, LLC under
contract with the California Department of Corrections. ..'

http://www.vegparadise.com/news18.html

Why the hell aren't vegetarian diets provided? Surely witholding choice
in something as fundamental as diet is a violation of the basic
human-right
to self-defend and maintain one's bodily, mental and emotional health.

To be honest I'm not sure if the general public would care too much about
whether convicted criminals get a a selection of healthy and nutritious
meals to choose from.

Hopefully, the highlighting of this travesty of justice in the media
will bring about a change in the prison policy.

If it were up to me I'd be with your bunch on this one. I know of no
religious group that can't eat a meat free diet so why not feed them all on
organic vegetarian food? The only risk I see is if you are actually
correct and they end up stronger and healthier and living longer - but I'd
say with drug habits and the rest, the risk is small.