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Science Forum Index » Anthropology Forum » Two questions about sex:
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| John Leonard |
Posted: Sat Dec 06, 2003 11:16 pm |
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I have read that the number of males born annually relative to that of the
number of females, in the human population, is approximately a constant of
51/49. Since males are at a greater risk of death this difference might help
promote a more equal distribution at the time of fertility.
My first question is this: how is this proportion maintained? I am at a loss
to understand how it could be maintained except through feedback. If this is
so, by what means does this feedback assert itself? Is it, for instance,
conceivable that we unconsciously modulate the likelihood of male versus
female birth via observations made in our brains?
My second question is this: In lions we see social groups (i.e. prides) in
which females outnumber males by several-to-one. Our species has a more
one-to-one ratio. First, is there a difference in the birth ratios of
females to males between lions and humans? Certainly, a male lion fights
more for the simple opportunity to reproduce than we do. Is there in fact a
difference between the nature of male competition between lions and humans?
Is it that lions compete more for the simple opportunity to reproduce
whereas humans compete more for the most highly prized females?
John Leonard |
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| Nim |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:26 am |
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Not sure about the 1st question, but the 2nd, lions have estrus, humans do
not. Male lions kill other males and their offspring because it makes the
female go into estrus. He reproduces with her and has offspring.
"John Leonard" <jleonard2_but_no_spam@si.rr.com> wrote in message
news:eQxAb.171599$ri.24512606@twister.nyc.rr.com...
Quote: I have read that the number of males born annually relative to that of the
number of females, in the human population, is approximately a constant of
51/49. Since males are at a greater risk of death this difference might
help
promote a more equal distribution at the time of fertility.
My first question is this: how is this proportion maintained? I am at a
loss
to understand how it could be maintained except through feedback. If this
is
so, by what means does this feedback assert itself? Is it, for instance,
conceivable that we unconsciously modulate the likelihood of male versus
female birth via observations made in our brains?
My second question is this: In lions we see social groups (i.e. prides) in
which females outnumber males by several-to-one. Our species has a more
one-to-one ratio. First, is there a difference in the birth ratios of
females to males between lions and humans? Certainly, a male lion fights
more for the simple opportunity to reproduce than we do. Is there in fact
a
difference between the nature of male competition between lions and
humans?
Is it that lions compete more for the simple opportunity to reproduce
whereas humans compete more for the most highly prized females?
John Leonard
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| Eliza |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:05 am |
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Quote: I have read that the number of males born annually relative to that of the
number of females, in the human population, is approximately a constant of
51/49. Since males are at a greater risk of death this difference might help
promote a more equal distribution at the time of fertility.
My first question is this: how is this proportion maintained? I am at a loss
to understand how it could be maintained except through feedback. If this is
so, by what means does this feedback assert itself? Is it, for instance,
conceivable that we unconsciously modulate the likelihood of male versus
female birth via observations made in our brains?
I have a feeling that the answer is most likely as simple as pure chance. It's
like flipping a coin. If you flip the coin enough times 50% of the time, it'll
land on Heads. Now imagine flipping that coin billions of times. Male/Female;
you have a 50/50 chance of getting either. That is of course excluding the rare
chances the coin doesn't land on it's edge. |
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| Martin Phipps |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:48 pm |
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"John Leonard" <jleonard2_but_no_spam@si.rr.com> wrote in message news:<eQxAb.171599$ri.24512606@twister.nyc.rr.com>...
Quote: I have read that the number of males born annually relative to that of the
number of females, in the human population, is approximately a constant of
51/49. Since males are at a greater risk of death this difference might help
promote a more equal distribution at the time of fertility.
My first question is this: how is this proportion maintained? I am at a loss
to understand how it could be maintained except through feedback. If this is
so, by what means does this feedback assert itself? Is it, for instance,
conceivable that we unconsciously modulate the likelihood of male versus
female birth via observations made in our brains?
There are more males than females at the time of birth because human
male sperm swims faster. I remember this from my high school biology
text.
Quote: My second question is this: In lions we see social groups (i.e. prides) in
which females outnumber males by several-to-one. Our species has a more
one-to-one ratio. First, is there a difference in the birth ratios of
females to males between lions and humans? Certainly, a male lion fights
more for the simple opportunity to reproduce than we do. Is there in fact a
difference between the nature of male competition between lions and humans?
Is it that lions compete more for the simple opportunity to reproduce
whereas humans compete more for the most highly prized females?
Do you want us to speculate? It could be that female lions
participate in hunting as much as male lions if not more so male lions
are only needed for reproduction. Having more female lions might be
an advantage for lions whereas for humans it works out that there are
as many men as women if the men are the only ones participating in
hunting. It's kind of sad, really. I don't think many men would
complain if there was a two-to-one ratio of females to men in the
human population.
Martin |
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| Neil |
Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:40 am |
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Quote: I have a feeling that the answer is most likely as simple as pure chance. It's
like flipping a coin. If you flip the coin enough times 50% of the time, it'll
land on Heads. Now imagine flipping that coin billions of times. Male/Female;
you have a 50/50 chance of getting either. That is of course excluding the rare
chances the coin doesn't land on it's edge.
The laws of probability show that when flipping coin, you will not get
a 50/50 ratio of heads to tales. One side is always a little more
likely. |
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| MIB529 |
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:50 am |
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willywaters@yahoo.com (Neil) wrote in message news:<1b573ab6.0312100240.aef6118@posting.google.com>...
Quote: I have a feeling that the answer is most likely as simple as pure chance. It's
like flipping a coin. If you flip the coin enough times 50% of the time, it'll
land on Heads. Now imagine flipping that coin billions of times. Male/Female;
you have a 50/50 chance of getting either. That is of course excluding the rare
chances the coin doesn't land on it's edge.
The laws of probability show that when flipping coin, you will not get
a 50/50 ratio of heads to tales. One side is always a little more
likely.
About 40/60 in favor of tails. |
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| Eliza |
Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:42 am |
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Quote: The laws of probability show that when flipping coin, you will not get
a 50/50 ratio of heads to tales. One side is always a little more
likely.
About 40/60 in favor of tails.
Yeah, and if a slot machine pays out a good sized jackpot, you should move to
another machine. Neither of these really had much bearing on the subject.
Fortunately I was going for a simpler explination without including any excess
variables. Even in human reproduction, there are numerous variables which can
effect the outcome of an end result. But then you go into the messy subjects of
transgendered and intersexed people in those cases. The coin landing on it's
edge so to speak.
The point of my earlier post was that I doubt there's any subconscious or
visual or any other cues which limit offspring to a certian number of sexes
within the mix. We're not frogs after all. We don't change sex because there
are too many females in the pond. Nor are we Gators who's sex development is
dependant on the temperature of the nest mound.
Also, if you want to go with balanced probability, use a random number
generator set at 2 digits. Sure it will most likely end up with a 49:51 or
similar ratio, but then, that's the estimate of sexes in the Human population,
isn't it? |
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| Chesapean |
Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 10:55 pm |
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Hi jleonard2,
This will sound like a troll response, but it really isn't meant to
be...
Let's start with the idea that monogamy -- for whatever reason --
proved to be advantageous to our ancestors. And thus -- for whatever
reason -- all humans are driven to live in monogamy.
All else being equal, an exact 50/50 split between male and female
births would be sufficient to allow every human adult to enter into a
monogamous pair bond.
In contrast, a vastly disproportionate split -- 90/10, or 10/90, for
example -- would make monogamy quite impossible. There would be too
many unpaired adults to sustain it.
So, if monogamy is desireable for humans, we should expect to see a
roughly equal number of males and females born. This explains why the
numbers are close for human births.
Why do the numbers "favor" more male births?
One possibility is the difference in economic cost the promiscuous
male pays by comparison with the promiscuous female. The promiscuous
male bears no costs for parenthood until he enters into a monogmous
relationship. In contrast, the promiscuous female always bears a cost
in parenthood, whether she gets help by entering into a monogamous
relationship, or not.
Under these harsh enconomic "rules," female and child survival depend
upon the male. Every human female with children needs help. But -- and
this is where the rubber hits the road -- not every male is up to the
task.
In other words, monogamy can only work when there is a sufficient
overabundance of males for the females to choose from. A female who
bears children cannot avoid the high economic cost of parenthood. If
the male she is paired to does not pull his weight, does not help, she
must pair with another one. Unless there are more males than females
to go around, she has no options.
So: The advantage of monogamy drives the split between male/female
births to be close, while the advantage of female choice drives the
percentage of male births to be slightly higher.
(These are my thoughts; a pure layman am I.)
Regards,
Chesapean |
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| Eliza |
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 3:26 am |
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Quote: Why do the numbers "favor" more male births?
They don't. The numbers "favor" female births as the world's population is
estimated to be 51% Female. |
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| Chesapean |
Posted: Fri Jan 02, 2004 6:03 pm |
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Hi Eliza,
I wrote:
Quote: Why do the numbers "favor" more male births?
You replied:
Quote: They don't. The numbers "favor" female births as the world's population is
estimated to be 51% Female.
An excellent point... But, the original question was about births, not
about survival. Mr. Leonard wrote:
Quote: I have read that the number of males born annually relative to that of the
number of females, in the human population, is approximately a constant of
51/49.
I wish I could answer his question with authority, but I am not
trained in anthropology. Please take my attempt at an explanation for
what it is worth.
If I may be obnoxious enough to add something: Birth rates and
mortality rates within a species can be different. In humans, for
example, women tend to live longer than men. So, even if more males
are born, it is possible for a greater number of females to be alive
at any given moment. This would account for 51% of the _living_ human
population being female.
Respectfully,
Chesapean |
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| Steve Bult |
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 8:06 pm |
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Chesapean wrote:
Quote: Hi Eliza,
I wrote:
Why do the numbers "favor" more male births?
You replied:
They don't. The numbers "favor" female births as the world's population is
estimated to be 51% Female.
An excellent point... But, the original question was about births, not
about survival. Mr. Leonard wrote:
I have read that the number of males born annually relative to that of the
number of females, in the human population, is approximately a constant of
51/49.
I wish I could answer his question with authority, but I am not
trained in anthropology. Please take my attempt at an explanation for
what it is worth.
If I may be obnoxious enough to add something: Birth rates and
mortality rates within a species can be different. In humans, for
example, women tend to live longer than men. So, even if more males
are born, it is possible for a greater number of females to be alive
at any given moment. This would account for 51% of the _living_ human
population being female.
Respectfully,
Chesapean
I would also like to add, that males tend to engage in more dangerous
activities (a higher degree of thrill seeking and more thrill
seeking activities). This also leads to higher male mortality at an
earlier age - car crashes, combat and rock climbing are all examples
of activities that kill more males than females. From an anthropoligical
perspective these activities would be hunting and territory
defense/acquisition.
The inital birth rate favors males slightly in part to compensate for this.
Steve |
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| DTAE |
Posted: Sat Jan 10, 2004 8:35 pm |
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Quote: I would also like to add, that males tend to engage in more dangerous
activities (a higher degree of thrill seeking and more thrill
seeking activities). This also leads to higher male mortality at an
earlier age - car crashes, combat and rock climbing are all examples
of activities that kill more males than females. From an anthropoligical
perspective these activities would be hunting and territory
defense/acquisition.
The inital birth rate favors males slightly in part to compensate for this.
Steve
What I have read in evolutionary texts mainly agrees with what Steve
said.
If their are more females in a population than males, a mother (and
father) which has more males will have a greater chance of more
offsprings in future generations. Converse should also be true.
Since males are not limited in the number of children they can have
nearly as much as females, it is also advantageous for males to use
techniques to spread their sperm around a little farther. This causes
riskier behavior, which causes an increased mortality rate.
Like Steve says, this could account for more males being born than
females (as source on that would be nice).
As for mechanisms behind this: I believe all mammals share the same
sex distinction method of males being XY and females XX. Other species
have different more manipulatable methods. This method presumably has
installed a sort of government upon sex ratios making them very near
50-50 because of the nature of meotic division. I don't know what the
mechanism is for more males being born (and wouldn't bet on the Y
chromosome sperm being able to swim faster).
Interestingly there are other possible subtle factors at play.
Mitochondral DNA is only passed on if a mother has a female child (and
y chromosome DNA if a father has a male child). These factors could
pose insentives for the sex specific DNA to cause abortions of the
opposite sex. |
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