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Science Forum Index » Agriculture Forum » Prions in many places
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| Del Crow |
Posted: Wed Jan 07, 2004 7:11 pm |
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 46
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| Apparently deer farms have discovered that the soil can harbor prions and there is resulting spongiform encephalitis. Now, this is not necessarily an additional way how BSE might be spread, but biowaste is a concern. Dairy farms normaly slurry or compost all sorts of waste materials back onto fields, crops are grown and fed to the dairy cows. Cows, at certain times graze these fields. Nothing strange. However, if prions can live in soil, and from other sources, we know that one of the main excesses implicated in BSE (and many human ailments) manganese is taken up and concentrated in plants, then this combination of factors is probably nearly all you need to make actively cascading BSE infections. What else? A trigger. It probably does not have to be the insecticide blamed in the British episode, how about other pesticides, how about many of the chemical pollutants common around active or old industrial sites? Check both locations where this recent poor "downer" lived. Both are heavily polluted. Mabton, near Yakima, USA and maybe Leduc, near Edmonton, Canada. My feling is that both areas should not be used for any kind of agricultural pursuits until an understanding and cure of prion diseases (many human ones, as well) are available to the general population....not patented, and free. Del Crow |
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| Oz |
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:59 am |
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Del Crow <delcrow@uniserve-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> writes
Quote: Apparently deer farms have discovered that the soil can harbor prions
and there is resulting spongiform encephalitis. Now, this is not
necessarily an additional way how BSE might be spread, but biowaste
is a concern.
Indeed, scrapie being believed to work similarly.
Only one piece of work ever done on prion biodegradeability in soil
showed a 1000-100,000 reduction in three years.
For bse, which is barely infective, this seems to be more than enough to
make soilborn transmission to cattle so rare it hasn't been seen.
For highly susceptible species/genotypes (eg for scrapie), it doesn't
appear to be enough and transmission appears to have occurred.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use. |
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| Jim Scanlon |
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 2:50 pm |
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In article <9O1g7CIh$P$$EwqZ@btopenworld.com>,
Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com> wrote:
Quote: Del Crow <delcrow@uniserve-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> writes
Apparently deer farms have discovered that the soil can harbor prions
and there is resulting spongiform encephalitis. Now, this is not
necessarily an additional way how BSE might be spread, but biowaste
is a concern.
Indeed, scrapie being believed to work similarly.
Only one piece of work ever done on prion biodegradeability in soil
showed a 1000-100,000 reduction in three years.
For bse, which is barely infective, this seems to be more than enough to
make soilborn transmission to cattle so rare it hasn't been seen.
For highly susceptible species/genotypes (eg for scrapie), it doesn't
appear to be enough and transmission appears to have occurred.
I reaall reading in a section of a book on "slow virus" and "viral
particle" that many years (I can't remember how many) after a scrapie
herd of sheep were slaughtered and removed from a pasture a new herd
became infected. This may be what is going on in wild and domesticated
deer in the US, a real mystery that MS Veneman of the USDA obviously
doesn't want to speak about.
On Jan 6 2004 an article "With Diseased Animals, Disposal Isn't Simple"
appeared in the NY Times on a company, "Waste Reduction with Waste
Reduction" that buids digesters, vats of lye that process carcases at
300 degrees F that it claims will "destroy prions" and liquify a 1,500
lb cow in eight hours, producing 76 lbs of bone and teeth remnants,
which can be used as fertilizer, 375 gallons of sterile solution of
water containing sugars, soaps and molecules that are the building
blocks of proteins. The company claims the non jelling liquid which has
a soap-like odor can be safely dumped into a sanitary sewer.
The companymakes vessels that can hold up to 10,000 lbs enough to digest
several carcases at once at a cost of aprox $1 million US with a water
system and hoists bringing the cost up another $.5 million US. The
company reportedly has proposed digestors that could hold 20,000 to
40,000 lb digestors to dispose of the brain, spinal and intestinal
tissue that is no longer allowed in the [human] meat supply.
About 30-40 digestors are in use through out the US nad and 5 are on
order for veteranary schools. The company is growing rapidly: in 2003
the rate was three or four times the previous year. "We expect the
coming year to triple again" a spokesperson said.
The reason for the growth has not been mad cow disease but the increase
in chronic wasting disease in deer and elk in the West and he Mid West.
It would seem from the above that there is lot of activity going on
behind the scenes in the US.
The otherwise excellent article makes one statement which seems to me to
be still open to question, "...given that animals and people can
contract mad cow disease by ingesting infected tissue ...
Best wishes,
Jim Scanlon |
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| Dean Hoffman |
Posted: Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:52 pm |
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On 1/6/04 8:28 AM, in article bteglh$6941q$1@ID-151056.news.uni-berlin.de,
"Phred" <ppnerkDELETETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: I presume you Yanks have the same concept of "a throne" as we do? :)
P.S. If you're from Nebraska, did you ever have anything to do with
Charlie Gardner at the Uni in Lincoln? (Well, you wouldn't unless you
were into agriculture yourself, especially corn. Charlie was quite a
renowned geneticist/corn breeder, and a real good bloke.)
Cheers, Phred.
A throne in my world is usually called a stool, rarely a crapper.
I've never heard of Charlie Gardner. I read some publications from UNL but
usually don't pay attention to the author. The University publishes
something they call a Nebguide. They cover just about anything one can
imagine about agriculture.
Dean
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =----- |
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| Del Crow |
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:14 am |
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Joined: 07 Jan 2004
Posts: 46
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Jim Scanlon <j.scanlon@comcast.net> wrote in message news:<j.scanlon-8C7B16.11503208012004@netnews.comcast.net>...
Quote: In article <9O1g7CIh$P$$EwqZ@btopenworld.com>,
Oz <acoohdb@btopenworld.com> wrote:
Del Crow <delcrow@uniserve-dot-com.no-spam.invalid> writes
Apparently deer farms have discovered that the soil can harbor prions
and there is resulting spongiform encephalitis. Now, this is not
necessarily an additional way how BSE might be spread, but biowaste
is a concern.
Indeed, scrapie being believed to work similarly.
Only one piece of work ever done on prion biodegradeability in soil
showed a 1000-100,000 reduction in three years.
For bse, which is barely infective, this seems to be more than enough to
make soilborn transmission to cattle so rare it hasn't been seen.
For highly susceptible species/genotypes (eg for scrapie), it doesn't
appear to be enough and transmission appears to have occurred.
I reaall reading in a section of a book on "slow virus" and "viral
particle" that many years (I can't remember how many) after a scrapie
herd of sheep were slaughtered and removed from a pasture a new herd
became infected. This may be what is going on in wild and domesticated
deer in the US, a real mystery that MS Veneman of the USDA obviously
doesn't want to speak about.
On Jan 6 2004 an article "With Diseased Animals, Disposal Isn't Simple"
appeared in the NY Times on a company, "Waste Reduction with Waste
Reduction" that buids digesters, vats of lye that process carcases at
300 degrees F that it claims will "destroy prions" and liquify a 1,500
lb cow in eight hours, producing 76 lbs of bone and teeth remnants,
which can be used as fertilizer, 375 gallons of sterile solution of
water containing sugars, soaps and molecules that are the building
blocks of proteins. The company claims the non jelling liquid which has
a soap-like odor can be safely dumped into a sanitary sewer.
The companymakes vessels that can hold up to 10,000 lbs enough to digest
several carcases at once at a cost of aprox $1 million US with a water
system and hoists bringing the cost up another $.5 million US. The
company reportedly has proposed digestors that could hold 20,000 to
40,000 lb digestors to dispose of the brain, spinal and intestinal
tissue that is no longer allowed in the [human] meat supply.
About 30-40 digestors are in use through out the US nad and 5 are on
order for veteranary schools. The company is growing rapidly: in 2003
the rate was three or four times the previous year. "We expect the
coming year to triple again" a spokesperson said.
The reason for the growth has not been mad cow disease but the increase
in chronic wasting disease in deer and elk in the West and he Mid West.
It would seem from the above that there is lot of activity going on
behind the scenes in the US.
The otherwise excellent article makes one statement which seems to me to
be still open to question, "...given that animals and people can
contract mad cow disease by ingesting infected tissue ...
Best wishes,
Jim Scanlon
##### Hello, Jim,
still, the feed grown in manganese polluted areas will concentrate
the mineral and the problem still mainly appears to be excess Mn
replacing copper, whether in feed or airborne, in the prion's
construction (at the codon). The multiple possible triggers of the
pesticide type are not only common but likely more objectionable in
combination. I don't think agricultural pursuits in suchlike polluted
areas is supportable; EXCEPT that some plants, and animals may not
respond to Mn as being toxic, and may not concentrate it. But there
has to be incentive on the part of the governments to make these
adjustments, changing the area products, annoying lots of people. It's
as much about politics as health. Del Crow
#####
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| Oz |
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:25 am |
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Jim Scanlon <j.scanlon@comcast.net> writes
Quote: I reaall reading in a section of a book on "slow virus" and "viral
particle" that many years (I can't remember how many) after a scrapie
herd of sheep were slaughtered and removed from a pasture a new herd
became infected. This may be what is going on in wild and domesticated
deer in the US, a real mystery that MS Veneman of the USDA obviously
doesn't want to speak about.
Indeed so, although that experiment is *very* old and not well designed
or (by modern standards) well done.
There is also the experiment, equally old, where sheep from scrapie-free
flocks were moved to known clean pasture and yet scrapie appeared
'spontaneously'. Certainly when you consider that the susceptible sheep
genotypes are **highly** susceptible and behave more like the very
highly susceptible human genotypes, a sporadic occurrence doesn't seem
unlikely to me. Also note that whilst the resistant genotypes do not
suffer from scrapie at all, and in particular there is no maternal
transmission, the reverse is very much the case for the susceptible
genotypes.
As to cwd there is a problem. Its very unclear to me whether cwd has
always been in the US wild herd but has only recently been identified or
is a disease that has been newly introduced. It was certainly first
identified in deer farms, but my understanding is that most of these
were stocked from the wild. I would expect both a much higher stocking
rate than in the wild and (naturally) very much greater veterinary
supervision. It would not be unexpected to find a 'new' disease in these
circumstances which was just an old one nobody had ever noticed.
The speed that cases have been identified across the US is absolutely
NOT what you would expect from natural TE transmission, no matter how
infective that TE is. It may be so, but it seems more likely to be a
case of 'if you look you find it', when it was in fact there all along.
Now I have heard reports of a large population boom in deer numbers
throughout the US in the last decade or so. One thing TE's like is high
populations because its a LOT easier to ensure effective transfer at
high densities than low ones, for very obvious reasons.
Combine a highly susceptible population, running at very much higher
densities than in historic times and an effective pathogen (cwd) and I
can imagine why incidences of about the 2% mark (which is what I have
seen reported in wild populations) might now be found. Notice that 2% is
the sort of level reported for scrapie in susceptible flocks.
I wouldn't eat elkbrain pie, but a nice side of venison would be
accepted with enthusiasm.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use. |
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| Oz |
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:28 am |
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Guest
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Del Crow <delcrow@uniserve.com> writes
Quote: still, the feed grown in manganese polluted areas will concentrate
the mineral and the problem still mainly appears to be excess Mn
replacing copper, whether in feed or airborne, in the prion's
construction (at the codon). The multiple possible triggers of the
pesticide type are not only common but likely more objectionable in
combination. I don't think agricultural pursuits in suchlike polluted
areas is supportable; EXCEPT that some plants, and animals may not
respond to Mn as being toxic, and may not concentrate it. But there
has to be incentive on the part of the governments to make these
adjustments, changing the area products, annoying lots of people. It's
as much about politics as health. Del Crow
Total crap.
There is no correlation in the UK between high-Mn, low-Mn, high-Cu, low-
Cu and any other combination of soiltypes in the bse epidemic.
In fact take a look at the jersey/guernsey bse incidences and timing (on
the website already quoted). Completely different and yet the geology is
identical.
--
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.
DEMON address no longer in use. |
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| Phred |
Posted: Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:14 am |
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In article <BC23577F.49275%dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com>,
Dean Hoffman <dh0496@ineINbrasVALkaID.com> wrote:
Quote: On 1/6/04 8:28 AM, in article bteglh$6941q$1@ID-151056.news.uni-berlin.de,
"Phred" <ppnerkDELETETHIS@yahoo.com> wrote:
I presume you Yanks have the same concept of "a throne" as we do? :)
P.S. If you're from Nebraska, did you ever have anything to do with
Charlie Gardner at the Uni in Lincoln? (Well, you wouldn't unless you
were into agriculture yourself, especially corn. Charlie was quite a
renowned geneticist/corn breeder, and a real good bloke.)
A throne in my world is usually called a stool, rarely a crapper.
I've never heard of Charlie Gardner. I read some publications from UNL but
usually don't pay attention to the author. The University publishes
something they call a Nebguide. They cover just about anything one can
imagine about agriculture.
Thanks for the response, Dean.
Incidentally, I stuck "nebguide" into Google and got >6700 hits. A
quick scan of the topics nicely demonstrates your point. ;-)
Cheers, Phred.
--
ppnerkDELETE@THISyahoo.com.INVALID |
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