Greetings, all,

Recently I've been searching the Net for some totem poles from Hawaii,
and from the Canadian Pacific coast. And I've been able to find quite
a few!

I was inspired by this website from Peter Marsh,

Polynesian Pathways
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~mkfenn/

And especially by this article,

Canadian Connection
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~mkfenn/page3.htm

According to Peter Marsh, the Canadian Haida Totem poles, are "almost
Hawai'ian in appearance". Well, I think he's basically correct. I've
found quite a few similarities there between many of these figures.

The following exploration of totem poles from Canada and from Hawaii
is mostly for those who are interested in these sorts of things. All
the links below are currently active, although they may change in the
future.

These comparisons will probably impress only those who have no prior
bias against these sorts of cultural connections. Those who are
inclined to deny them will probably keep on rejecting such evidence.
But of course such evidence must be taken in conjunction with much
other evidence to the same effect, as outlined, for example, in the
above site by Marsh...

In any case, one of the big scholarly authorities on Canadian totem
poles was Marius Barbeau (1883 - 1969),

Civilization.ca - Scholars - Marius Barbeau
http://www.civilization.ca/academ/barbeau/baareng.html

He published quite a few studies on this subject. And this is what he
wrote in his 1929 monograph TOTEM POLES OF THE GITKSAN,

"The totem poles, as fairly recently carved and erected on both sides
of the Pacific, offer the same compelling resemblance. The technique
for their erection was also identical."

THE CANADIAN TOTEMS

Great many Canadian totem poles can be found on the Net. This seems
like the best site, with lots of totem poles,

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/index.htm

And here are some selected images, with my comments. The Hawaiian
totems will come next.

KWAKIUTL

Kalugwis (Turnour Island)
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/kwak/kalugwis/pn_htm/15558.htm
A simple standing figure, just like in Hawaii.

"Welcome Figure" at K'we (Mt. Stephens)
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/kwak/kwintro.htm
This is an old Kwakiutl totem. A deity with a large animal-like head
-- similar to some Hawaiian figures. This woodcut by Walter Phillips
is the only record of this figure that we have.

KISPIOX TOTEMS

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/gitxsan/kispiox/pn_htm/03843b.htm
The totem in the background (the upper figure on it) has a similar
head-dress and face, compared to Hawaii totems.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/gitxsan/kispiox/pn_htm/07035.htm
Also, this one seems to have a large head-dress.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/gitxsan/kispiox/pn_htm/06974.htm
Similar to Hawaii totems.

Something like the Maori spirals and head-dresses are visible here on
some of the totems,
http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/gitxsan/kiintro2.htm

HAIDA

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/haida/skid/pn_htm/05550.htm
This Canadian totem has similar mouth and eyes, compared to the
Hawaiian totems. Compare the following Hawaiian totem,

http://www.reefboiproductions.com/Scenes/Scenes5/1480_v.jpg
Totem Pole at Foster Gardens, O`ahu

http://community.webshots.com/photo/15677290/15817470yFNqgfDVAO

HAWAII TOTEMS

It seems like most of these totems, known as ki'i, have been destroyed
by Christian missionaries, who first arrived to Hawaii in substantial
numbers in the 1820s, and by their local converts. But some of these
images still survive, because they were taken off the island by
foreign sailors and whalers as souvenirs. Also, some images remained
hidden in caves, and have been discovered more recently.

Here's a good account of traditional Hawaiian culture and religion,

Ancient Hawaii - Kahuna
http://www.hawaiiantrading.com/herb-kane/ah-book/c10.html

The definitive volume on old Hawaiian totems is,

Cox, J. Halley, William H. Davenport, HAWAIIAN SCULPTURE, Honolulu:
University of Hawaii Press, 1988 (1st edition, 1974).

This includes just about all available old Hawaiian totems. Some are
preserved in the Bishop Museum, Honolulu, but most of them, taken away
by early visitors, seem to be now scattered in museums around the
world.

The following are some traditional Hawaiian totems,

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/kona/fig13.jpg
The layout of a traditional Hawaiian temple (known as "heiau"),
including the totems.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/kona/fig15.jpg
An old painting of a Hawaiian temple, portraying human-like totems.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/kona/fig17.jpg
A detailed portrayal of the Akua ka'ai image with a large head-dress,
plus another totem.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/kona/fig84.jpg
A picture of totems from the 1782 book by Ellis.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/kona/fig151.jpg
A Hawaiian temple with totems, from an old book.

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/kona/fig152.jpg
An old Hawaiian totem (an image removed from Hale-o-Keawe by Henry
Bloxam).

___________________

The following are the Hawaiian totems that can be seen now at some
popular tourist sites in Hawaii.

http://www.richhavas.com/hawaii/PoR-Guardians.jpg
A collection of totems with large head-dresses, including a simple
standing figure. (Guardians: Place of Refuge, Kona, Hawaii.)

http://www.travelwithachallenge.com/Images/Travel_Article_Library/Hawaii/Refuge.jpg
Same group, but better quality photo.

http://www.litech.org/~carson/pictures/Hawaii/totems.jpg
Same totems as above.

http://raysweb.net/hawaii/images/2-totems-500vh.jpg
Two of the same totems as above.

http://www.travelwithachallenge.com/Images/Travel_Article_Library/Hawaii/Totems.jpg
"Along the Big Island's South Kona shore, traditional ki'i totems near
Captain Cook guard the place of refuge."

http://users.imag.net/~sry.jkramer/nativetotems/images/FT5)newzealand.jpg
Simple Maori totem. Traditional Hawaiian and Canadian totems are quite
similar.

The following are recent commercially produced images, that may be
based on some old prototypes,

http://www.planetware.com/photos/US/HIO208.HTM
Carved tikis for sale in Paradise Cove, Oahu.

All the best,

Yuri.

Yuri Kuchinsky -=O=- http://www.trends.ca/~yuku

Comparative studies of primitive art have probably been
jeopardized by the zeal of investigators of cultural contacts and
borrowings. But let us state in no uncertain terms that these
studies have been jeopardized even more by intellectual pharisees
who prefer to deny obvious relationships because science does not
yet provide an adequate method for their interpretation
-=- Claude Levi-Strauss, ANTHROPOLOGIE STRUCTURALE, 1958

Well, this link didn't work for me, but I can now guess what you are
going to mean by "totem". And again, nobody actually calls them
"totems", either in NZ or Hawaii, except you and possibly the odd
over-excited tour guide. Just as nobody calls NW coast carvings "tikis",
except you.

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:00:16 +1300, benlizross wrote:
[SNIP]
Well, this link didn't work for me, but I can now guess what you are
going to mean by "totem". And again, nobody actually calls them
"totems", either in NZ or Hawaii, except you and possibly the odd
over-excited tour guide. Just as nobody calls NW coast carvings "tikis",
except you.

Yuri has killfiled me, I presume, as he never responded to my post where I
wrote:

I wonder if you even know what a totem pole is?

http://users.imag.net/~sry.jkramer/nativetotems/fake.htm

Doug

Doug Weller wrote:

On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 10:00:16 +1300, benlizross wrote:
[SNIP]
Well, this link didn't work for me, but I can now guess what you are
going to mean by "totem". And again, nobody actually calls them
"totems", either in NZ or Hawaii, except you and possibly the odd
over-excited tour guide. Just as nobody calls NW coast carvings
"tikis",
except you.

Yuri has killfiled me, I presume, as he never responded to my post where
I
wrote:

I wonder if you even know what a totem pole is?

http://users.imag.net/~sry.jkramer/nativetotems/fake.htm

Doug

It's a nice page. I should also have referred Yuri to the Ainu poles --
there's a nice collection of them looking out over Vancouver from the
slopes of Burnaby Mountain, made by an Ainu carver in the 1980s.

Ross Clark

Greetings, all,

Recently I've been searching the Net for some totem poles from Hawaii,
and from the Canadian Pacific coast. And I've been able to find quite
a few!

I was inspired by this website from Peter Marsh,

Polynesian Pathways
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~mkfenn/

And especially by this article,

Canadian Connection
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~mkfenn/page3.htm

According to Peter Marsh, the Canadian Haida Totem poles, are "almost
Hawai'ian in appearance". Well, I think he's basically correct. I've
found quite a few similarities there between many of these figures.

The following exploration of totem poles from Canada and from Hawaii
is mostly for those who are interested in these sorts of things. All
the links below are currently active, although they may change in the
future.

Actually, the striking evidence is here,

http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_432662444

There you go again, invoking Badner's bad art history, rejected even by

Do you know the dates of these sculptures? Many Hawaiians emigrated to
the Pacific Northwest post discovery to work as traders, trappers and
hunters.

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
snip
Actually, the striking evidence is here,

http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_432662444

There you go again, invoking Badner's bad art history, rejected even by
his mentor.

tk

In sci.archaeology benlizross <benlizro@ihug.co.nz> wrote:

: Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
:
:> Greetings, all,
:
:> Recently I've been searching the Net for some totem poles from Hawaii,
:> and from the Canadian Pacific coast. And I've been able to find quite
:> a few!

: Good work, Yuri, I'm sure this has been very educational for you.

And I hope for some others too...

:> These comparisons will probably impress only those who have no prior
:> bias against these sorts of cultural connections. Those who are
:> inclined to deny them will probably keep on rejecting such evidence.
:> But of course such evidence must be taken in conjunction with much
:> other evidence to the same effect, as outlined, for example, in the
:> above site by Marsh...

: Yes, of course it is as you suggest. Except I would word it a little
: differently: Those who have no prior bias in favor of these sorts of
: cultural connections will not be greatly impressed by the comparison.
: Whereas those who are inclined to assert them will see this as striking
: evidence.

Actually, the striking evidence is here,

http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_432662444

:> "Welcome Figure" at K'we (Mt. Stephens)
:> http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/kwak/kwintro.htm
:> This is an old Kwakiutl totem. A deity with a large animal-like head
:> -- similar to some Hawaiian figures. This woodcut by Walter Phillips
:> is the only record of this figure that we have.

: I can't comment on every image or every comment, of course. But it is
: worth noting that, whereas representations of birds and animals
: proliferate everywhere on NW totem poles, they are conspicuously absent
: in what you see as the Hawaiian equivalent.

The dissimilarities are not very relevant in the present context.

:> http://collections.ic.gc.ca/totems/exhibit/haida/skid/pn_htm/05550.htm
:> This Canadian totem has similar mouth and eyes, compared to the
:> Hawaiian totems. Compare the following Hawaiian totem,
:
:> http://www.reefboiproductions.com/Scenes/Scenes5/1480_v.jpg
:> Totem Pole at Foster Gardens, O`ahu

: Now be careful here, Yuri. This actually does look like a NW Coast totem
: pole. This image is probably a general picture of the same thing:

:> http://community.webshots.com/photo/15677290/15817470yFNqgfDVAO

That's a good one! Thanks, Ross. Yes, it's the same totem pole.

: In looking around at other pictures from the same Botanical Garden, I
: noticed a stone image of the Buddha, which I am pretty sure is not an
: indigenous Hawaiian artefact. In fact, I would go so far as to bet you
: that this is either a real NW coast totem or a pretty good imitation,
: used as an exotic garden ornament.

My bet is that this is a Hawaiian production. But this is obviously a
modern production, that includes some modern elements.

The only question here is to what extent this modern production is based
on some traditional Hawaiian proto-types, if any.

: If you're not inclined to believe me,
: perhaps you could email the people at the gardens and ask them.

Maybe I will. But I'm already pretty sure what this pole is.

:> HAWAII TOTEMS

: Now here's another thing I guess you've learned. And this is why, when
: you talked about "Hawaiian totem poles", it did not immediately bring an
: image to mind for me. Because although the word "totem" is liberally
: used by you below in reference to these Hawaiian carvings, you only
: found one tourist site that actually uses the word. (Apart from the
: exotic object in the Botanical Gardens just discussed.)

I don't really care how to call them... whatever you call them, they are
still the same.

:> http://users.imag.net/~sry.jkramer/nativetotems/images/FT5)newzealand.jpg
:> Simple Maori totem. Traditional Hawaiian and Canadian totems are quite
:> similar.

: Well, this link didn't work for me,

Try cuting and pasting the link into your browser. The link is valid. I
think it's the bracket in the URL ")" that created a problem.

: but I can now guess what you are
: going to mean by "totem". And again, nobody actually calls them
: "totems", either in NZ or Hawaii, except you and possibly the odd
: over-excited tour guide. Just as nobody calls NW coast carvings "tikis",
: except you.

Google search on the keywords,

Hawaii totem

produces 17,200 hits.

:> The following are recent commercially produced images, that may be
:> based on some old prototypes,
:
:> http://www.planetware.com/photos/US/HIO208.HTM
:> Carved tikis for sale in Paradise Cove, Oahu.

: I think we'll just charitably overlook this one, Yuri. Let's say you
: were tired. You don't really think airport art belongs in a serious
: comparison like this, do you? No, I didn't think so.

You missed some evident similarities between this "airport art" and the
Botanical Gardens totem that you've yourself posted.

The only question here is to what extent, if at all, this modern "airport
art" is based on some traditional Hawaiian designs.

:> Comparative studies of primitive art have probably been
:> jeopardized by the zeal of investigators of cultural contacts and
:> borrowings. But let us state in no uncertain terms that these
:> studies have been jeopardized even more by intellectual pharisees
:> who prefer to deny obvious relationships because science does not
:> yet provide an adequate method for their interpretation
:> -=- Claude Levi-Strauss, ANTHROPOLOGIE STRUCTURALE, 1958

: A strange bedfellow for Yuri....

Why?

: By the way, if you want to see some real Pacific totem poles, check out
: the malangan culture of New Ireland, as in this image:

: http://homepages.ius.edu/AEALLEN/STAT1.GIF

: Unfortunately, it's in Melanesia, but I'm sure you can work it into your
: theory somehow.

Why would I want to do this?

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
snip
Actually, the striking evidence is here,

http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_432662444

There you go again, invoking Badner's bad art history, rejected even by
his mentor.

Yuri Kuchinsky wrote:
snip
Compare the following Hawaiian totem,

http://www.reefboiproductions.com/Scenes/Scenes5/1480_v.jpg
Totem Pole at Foster Gardens, O`ahu

Now be careful here, Yuri. This actually does look like a NW Coast totem
pole. This image is probably a general picture of the same thing:

http://community.webshots.com/photo/15677290/15817470yFNqgfDVAO

"Along the Big Island's South Kona shore, traditional ki'i totems near
Captain Cook guard the place of refuge."

http://users.imag.net/~sry.jkramer/nativetotems/images/FT5)newzealand.jpg
Simple Maori totem. Traditional Hawaiian and Canadian totems are quite
similar.

Well, this link didn't work for me, but I can now guess what you are
going to mean by "totem".
snip

By the way, if you want to see some real Pacific totem poles, check out
the malangan culture of New Ireland, as in this image:

http://homepages.ius.edu/AEALLEN/STAT1.GIF

Unfortunately, it's in Melanesia, but I'm sure you can work it into your
theory somehow.

Do you know the dates of these sculptures? Many Hawaiians emigrated to the
Pacific Northwest post discovery to work as traders, trappers and hunters.

"Robert Fortune" <catlike1@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<rqZzb.36$Ho3.24@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...

Do you know the dates of these sculptures? Many Hawaiians emigrated to the
Pacific Northwest post discovery to work as traders, trappers and hunters.

Robert:
Prior to the aquisition of hard metal tools through the fur trade,
many fewer totem poles were carved in the Pacific Northwest.
Almost all the examples we have date from the fur trade period.
So, almost all the examples we have were designed and carved after
European contact, and so cannot necessarily be considered to be
representative of designs created before European contact.
Cross-cultural influence on Pacific Northwest totem pole design
transmitted through Europeans cannot be ruled out as a major cause for
apparent similarites between designs from different parts of the
Pacific Ocean shores.
Therefore, the apparent evidence of contacts between the Pacific
Northwest and different cultures on different parts of the Pacific
Ocean shores may possibly all be the result of post-European-contact
cultural trasmission, and may not relate to pre-European contacts
between the Pacific Northwest and different cultures on different
parts of the Pacific Ocean shores at all.

Daryl Krupa