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...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:15 am
 
In sci.skeptic Sylvia Else <sylvia at (no spam) not.here.invalid> wrote:
[quote]You're conflating cost, price and value. They're distinct concepts.
[/quote]
Obviously. Hence my ref to the part they individually play in
standard supply/demand theory. You either accept that theory or do not.

If you do, then your "deductions" from prices are incorrect.

If you do not, then you admit that prices have little to do with
supply or demand. I.e. prices are even more arbitrary than the
simple thory would have it. If so, then your "deductions" from
prices are more incorrect.

[quote][some economics 101 definitions]
[/quote]
You're just lowering the bar.

--
R Kym Horsell <kym at (no spam) kymhorsell.com>

If your ideas are any good you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
-- Howard Aiken
 
Martin Brown...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 5:51 am
 
On 11/11/2010 19:23, SPierce wrote:
[quote]"Surfer"<no at (no spam) spam.net> wrote in message
news:4k0od6dl8s6js4g8cv7shlplqi6lta4v1u at (no spam) 4ax.com...
On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:06:22 +1100, "0O ONBZ"<*** at (no spam) iti.com> wrote:

Greenie Desal Insanity, Just Like All Other Greenie Schemes, Will Cripple
Us

The Greens oppose desalination too.

http://bob-brown.greensmps.org.au/content/tv/say-no-desalination

"....Desalination is not yet proven as a viable, sustainable option.
The effects on our environment can be horrendous (and permanent). The
people over at Get Real on Climate Change have put together a great
campaign against the proposed Victorian Desalination Plant....."


See video here:
http://www.getrealonclimatechange.org/

"......Desalination is the process of removing salt and other
impurities from seawater to produce fresh water, and make it fit for
human use.

Very large quantities of sea water (11,000 litres per second, or 16
Olympic-size swimming pools every hour) are pumped into a factory-like
complex. The water is mixed with chemicals in a pre-treatment process.
This kills any animal life, and removes any solid particles that will
clog up the next stage of filters. The water is then pushed through a
series of exceptionally thin membranes in a process called reverse
osmosis.

Chlorine, caustic soda, hydrochloric acid and ferric chloride are used
during the process. Some of these chemicals are discharged back into
the sea, where some chemicals form carcinogens. Heavy metals also
contaminate the food chain....."

# If this is true...I will check it out, then I will be against any
further de-sal plants, AND protest against them. My understanding of de-sal
[/quote]
It is true but then the same sort of chemistry is also used to make
potable drinking water. Using chlorine to kill pathogens has the side
effect of leaving potential organochlorine carcinogens in the water but
that is always preferable to live salmonella, cholera and typhoid.

Only the chlorine input is worth worrying about and that or some other
peroxide or UV sterilising technique is essential if you want a safe
drinking water supply.

[quote]plants is that they pump sea water through membranes and discharged he salt
back into the sea where it just recycles with the other sea water and flows
away. I have no idea about chemicals being used. Never heard of it. But
it alarms me if true.
[/quote]
It is basically true and it is intended to alarm. Don't get too upset
about "chemicals" - not all synthetic chemicals are shock horror bad.

The RO filters have to be protected from the muck and rubbish that is in
raw seawater. It has to be buffered to the right pH and prefiltered to
remove any colloidal gunk. Much the same processes are used on potable
drinking water too. You would not be impressed if your drinking water
was cloudy and contained tadpoles or shrimps. See for example:

http://www.chemie.de/lexikon/e/Reverse_osmosis/

Main problem with it is that it is very expensive in energy usage (but
uses a lot less than the alternatives) - unless you have solar powered
distillation. Coke famously used reverse osmosis to turn Londons potable
tap water into "Dasani" bottled water so contaminated with bromate that
it was declared unfit for human consumption and withdrawn ignominiously.
ISTR they still sell it in the USA.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2004/mar/20/medicineandhealth.lifeandhealth

Don't fall for panic attack green propaganda or the far rights trash the
planet now for fun and profit campaign either.

Regards,
Martin Brown
 
...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:28 am
 
In sci.skeptic Sylvia Else <sylvia at (no spam) not.here.invalid> wrote:
[quote][some definition spitting related to what the market determines]
[/quote]
So if you believe there are causal links a la demand/supply
your original argument was merely circular.

Thank you, come again.

--
R Kym Horsell <kym at (no spam) kymhorsell.com>

If your ideas are any good you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
-- Howard Aiken
 
...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 7:38 am
 
In sci.skeptic Sylvia Else <sylvia at (no spam) not.here.invalid> wrote:
[quote][some definition spitting related to what the market determines]
[/quote]
So if you believe there are causal links a la demand/supply
your original argument was merely circular.

Thank you, come again.

P.S. While you're boning up on intro economics, maybe give "inferior/superior
goods" a look. It may have something to do with your ideas about
the "high price" of lead acid batteries. LOL.

--
R Kym Horsell <kym at (no spam) kymhorsell.com>

If your ideas are any good you'll have to ram them down people's throats.
-- Howard Aiken
 
Surfer...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:58 am
 
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 18:09:39 +1100, Sylvia Else
<sylvia at (no spam) not.here.invalid> wrote:

[quote]
Aren't greenies opposed to everything?

I don't know of any particular group that calls themselves "greenies"[/quote]
so can't comment on that.

However, this web page explains what the Australian Greens party
supports and opposes.

http://greens.org.au/policies

Here is an example.

Re: Forests, Plantations and Wood Products

<Start extract>

The Australian Greens want:

- recognition of the essential role played by mature forest ecosystems in wildlife habitat, carbon storage and water supply.
- a sustainable and productive wood products industry on public and private land that maintains or enhances the resilience of natural ecosystems.
- a high value-adding wood products industry that creates long-term skilled jobs and social sustainability in regional communities.
- an end to the destruction of old-growth forests and other forests of high conservation value.
- tax arrangements which do not advantage plantations over other crops.
- world’s best practice certified farm-scale plantation forestry
- a diversity of species in plantations.

<End extract>

I see support for six items there, with "destruction of old growth
forests...." being the only thing opposed.
 
Surfer...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:12 am
 
On Fri, 12 Nov 2010 10:51:43 +0000, Martin Brown
<|||newspam||| at (no spam) nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote:

[quote]
http://www.chemie.de/lexikon/e/Reverse_osmosis/

Main problem with it is that it is very expensive in energy usage (but
uses a lot less than the alternatives) - unless you have solar powered
distillation.

[/quote]
This might solve the problem.

http://www.carnegiecorp.com.au/files/asx-announcements/2010/101028_CETO
3 Unveil_ASX 2.pdf

<Start extract>

The CETO system distinguishes itself from other wave energy devices by
operating out of sight and being anchored to the ocean floor. An array
of submerged buoys is tethered to seabed pump units. The buoys move in
harmony with the motion of the passing waves, driving the pumps which
in turn pressurise water that is delivered ashore via a pipeline.

High-pressure water is used to drive hydroelectric turbines,
generating zero-emission electricity. The high-pressure water can also
be used to supply a reverse osmosis desalination plant, replacing
greenhouse gas emitting electrically driven pumps usually required for
such plants.

<End extract>
 
Alessandro...
Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:24 pm
 
"Surfer" <no at (no spam) spam.net> ha scritto nel messaggio
news:4k0od6dl8s6js4g8cv7shlplqi6lta4v1u at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]On Thu, 11 Nov 2010 17:06:22 +1100, "0O ONBZ" <*** at (no spam) iti.com> wrote:

Greenie Desal Insanity, Just Like All Other Greenie Schemes, Will Cripple
Us


The Greens oppose desalination too.
[/quote]
I don't understand why some enviromentalists oppose desalination,
particurally if low temp thermal process (like MED or MSF even requiring no
more than 50-70 kWh per cubic meter of fresh water of low temp heat) are
involved, and if these plants use low temp heat from power stations in
coastal sites used in cogeneration (production of electricity + heat) unlike
electricity driven processes like reverse osmosis (requiring 5-10 kWh of
electricity per cubic meter of water)

Just curious, considering the costs to transport water to long distances,
hasn' t more sense to produce in situ clean water in a lot of different
(coastal) sites via low thermal desalination and if necessary piping that
water elsewhere, instead building many dams or long and costly pipings ?
 
 
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