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| BobH... |
 Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:50 am |
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How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to
make woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use
a hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH |
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| dcaster at (no spam) krl.org... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 10:50 am |
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On Nov 7, 5:24 pm, Gunner Asch <gun... at (no spam) NOSPAMlightspeed.net> wrote:
[quote]
Bob...I think you are laboring under a misconception about
casehardening.
It must be a decent, alloy to caseharden. And case hardening is only in
actuallity a few thousands thick
Gunner
[/quote]
Casehardening will work with mild steel. If you start with a decent
alloy, you will end up with a tougher item. But casehardening mild
steel works.
Maybe you are thinking of nitriding.
Dan |
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| Gunner Asch... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:24 pm |
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:50:05 -0700, BobH
<WanderingMetalHead.DUMP.SPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to
make woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use
a hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH
[/quote]
Bob...I think you are laboring under a misconception about
casehardening.
It must be a decent, alloy to caseharden. And case hardening is only in
actuallity a few thousands thick
Now hardfacing..thats putting a very thick layer of very hard material
over whatever it is that you are hard facing. It could be crappy mild
steel, jello or what have you.
There is good reasons to caseharden. Size must not change, etc etc
But there are very many more reasons to face when making up tools that
will be abused and need sharpening regularly.
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth." |
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| BobH... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:14 pm |
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Gunner Asch wrote:
[quote]Bob...I think you are laboring under a misconception about
casehardening.
It must be a decent, alloy to caseharden. And case hardening is only in
actuallity a few thousands thick
[/quote]
Thanks! I was thinking that the Kasenite supplied enough carbon and
whatever magic stuff makes for hard steel to work with mild steel. I was
aware that it was only a few thousandths thick though.
Bob |
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| RAM³... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:42 pm |
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"BobH" <WanderingMetalHead.DUMP.SPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:46fe8$4af5972d$8c631746$30801 at (no spam) news.deru.net...
[quote]How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to make
woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use a
hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH
[/quote]
Check out http://www.nanosteelco.com/product/products_index.html. |
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| fran...123... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:34 pm |
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"BobH" <WanderingMetalHead.DUMP.SPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:46fe8$4af5972d$8c631746$30801 at (no spam) news.deru.net...
[quote]How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to make
woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use a
hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH
[/quote]
The hardfacing stuff I have is high manganese rods for use with tig or
perhaps oxy acetylene if you have the right flux. It is more for ground
contact surfaces than for holding an edge. It goes on kind of in globs much
more than steel welding rod. Perhaps you have some other hardfacing
substance in mind.
I had a quart sized can of the Kaseite which you heat the piece red hot and
roll it around in the powder and then quench and repeat if desired. It
worked well for hardening pins that things pivot on instead of buying
something specifically designed to be machined and then hardened. Well I did
it and installed the pins, they were too hard to file I can attest to that.
Unfortunately I have used the can up. I would think that would be a better
choice however it might not really end up having the type of edge holding
qualities and strength you are looking for. When in high school in
Industrial arts I think they called it we used files heated them red hot
then quenched then baked for an hour at 350. I forgot where in the process
you worked it into the new shape but you might try that instead.
Fran |
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| RoyJ... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:57 pm |
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There are dozens of different hard facing or alloy rods. Some are high
strength, some abrasion resistant, some shock resistant, etc. I use some
for the bottom of my snow plow blades: make a new wear strip, run it for
one snowfall to get the right edge shape, then put on 2 or 3 beads. The
result lasts for several seasons. A file just bounces off, this material
would need to be ground to shape if needed. Does it stick to the base
metal? I've never had a section chip off even when I hit concrete edges
and similar.
Case hardening works on mild steel, just that the base metal is not as
strong. But the case hardening is only a few thousandths thick (longer
soak time yields more depth). You cannot sharpen the surface, you will
grind away all of the casehardening.
I've been making my woodworking cutter knives from A-2 steel with good
success. In the annealed state it cuts very well with hacksaw, standard
mills, drills, etc. Heat to ~1750F in a stainless steel foil bag, cool,
temper in the kitchen oven at 400F to 600F depending on what properties
you want. A-2 is available from Crucible Steel, McMaster, or Enco. Not
cheap but very nice stuff.
BobH wrote:
[quote]How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to
make woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use
a hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH[/quote] |
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| Bruce... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:12 pm |
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 11:14:54 -0700, BobH
<WanderingMetalHead.DUMP.SPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]Gunner Asch wrote:
Bob...I think you are laboring under a misconception about
casehardening.
It must be a decent, alloy to caseharden. And case hardening is only in
actuallity a few thousands thick
Thanks! I was thinking that the Kasenite supplied enough carbon and
whatever magic stuff makes for hard steel to work with mild steel. I was
aware that it was only a few thousandths thick though.
Bob
[/quote]
It does. The Kasenite simply adds carbon to the material you are case
hardening - however, as Gunner says, it is a very thin layer. But
having said that we used to make one off tools from low or medium
carbon steel and Kasenite them. It worked but you needed to re
Kasenite them if you re-sharpened them.
Cheers,
Bruce
(bruceinbangkokatgmaildotcom) |
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| dan... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:13 pm |
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What's that Lassie? You say that Gunner Asch fell down the old
sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:24:43 -0800:
[quote]And case hardening is only in
actuallity a few thousands thick
[/quote]
Are you sure about that? I've seen stuff that had about .050" case to
it. (thompson shafts) A real bitch to machine through. Worse to
drill and tap a hole that is part into the hard area.
I thought that you could make case hardening quite thick, but usually
it's very thin.
--
Dan H.
northshore MA. |
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| dan... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:19 pm |
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What's that Lassie? You say that RoyJ fell down the old
sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Sat, 07 Nov 2009 15:57:14 -0600:
[quote]I use some
for the bottom of my snow plow blades: make a new wear strip, run it for
one snowfall to get the right edge shape, then put on 2 or 3 beads. The
result lasts for several seasons. A file just bounces off, this material
would need to be ground to shape if needed.
[/quote]
What rod do you use? My boss at work has a snowplow that the edge is
worn out.
--
Dan H.
northshore MA. |
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| Steve W.... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:04 pm |
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BobH wrote:
[quote]How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to
make woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use
a hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH
[/quote]
I use hardfacing to repair anvils. Proper prep and material selection
and you get much more wear.
Kasenite compound is great stuff and it does have it's uses. However it
only gives you a thin layer and once you grind through it you have to
retreat the surface.
--
Steve W. |
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| Tim Wescott... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:59 am |
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:13:58 +0000, dan wrote:
[quote]What's that Lassie? You say that Gunner Asch fell down the old
sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue by
Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:24:43 -0800:
And case hardening is only in
actuallity a few thousands thick
Are you sure about that? I've seen stuff that had about .050" case to
it. (thompson shafts) A real bitch to machine through. Worse to drill
and tap a hole that is part into the hard area.
I thought that you could make case hardening quite thick, but usually
it's very thin.
[/quote]
From what I know (book learning only) you can case harden up to 50 mil or
even more, but it takes a long time and it only works if you're using a
process that keeps the piece immersed in a high-carbon atmosphere -- the
carbon has to diffuse into the steel, so thick cases take hours or even
days.
You're not going to improve the steel's grain structure, and a low-alloy
steel with carbon is still a low-alloy steel with all it's quenching
difficulties and non-high-speed properties, but in theory you can make a
'thick' case.
--
www.wescottdesign.com |
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| Tim Wescott... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:02 am |
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:50:05 -0700, BobH wrote:
[quote]How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to
make woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use
a hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH
[/quote]
Why not buy decent tool steel? If you're putting all the effort into the
tool you may as well use the right material.
(says the guy who just built two gouges, one out of music wire and the
other out of unhardened drill rod -- but that's cause they're my first
ones and I'll do it 'right' next time).
--
www.wescottdesign.com |
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| BobH... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 9:54 am |
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Tim Wescott wrote:
[quote]On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:50:05 -0700, BobH wrote:
How well does the hardfacing material put down with an arc welder adhere
to the material? A friend was talking about hardfacing mild steel to
make woodworking tools, and I was wondering whether it would be a better
approach to use something like the Kasenite hardening compound or to use
a hardfacing rod. It looks like some of the hardfacing materials can be
ground or machined with carbide.
Thanks,
BobH
Why not buy decent tool steel? If you're putting all the effort into the
tool you may as well use the right material.
(says the guy who just built two gouges, one out of music wire and the
other out of unhardened drill rod -- but that's cause they're my first
ones and I'll do it 'right' next time).
[/quote]
As I mentioned, this question came out of a discussion with a friend
that was mostly about hardfacing. I know almost nothing about hardfacing
and about the same for case hardening. The little bit of reading I did
on hardfacing made it sound like adhesion of the hardening material
might be an issue.
Thanks everybody for your comments on this, I have learned a few things
here.
BobH |
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| Gunner Asch... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:55 am |
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On Sun, 08 Nov 2009 01:13:58 GMT, notme at (no spam) privacy.net (dan) wrote:
[quote]What's that Lassie? You say that Gunner Asch fell down the old
sci.engr.joining.welding mine and will die if we don't mount a rescue
by Sat, 07 Nov 2009 09:24:43 -0800:
And case hardening is only in
actuallity a few thousands thick
Are you sure about that? I've seen stuff that had about .050" case to
it. (thompson shafts) A real bitch to machine through. Worse to
drill and tap a hole that is part into the hard area.
I thought that you could make case hardening quite thick, but usually
it's very thin.
[/quote]
Yah...you can get it that thick.if you work at it. But .050 is still
only 50 thousands and in most applications...thats simply not thick
enough. Snow plow edge...perfect example...that puppy needs to be .500
or more thick just for one season.
I should add Im not a metalurgist..just a machine repair guy with some
welding experience here and there....,<G>
Gunner
"IMHO, some people here give Jeff far more attention than he deserves,
but obviously craves. The most appropriate response, and perhaps the
cruelest, IMO, is to simply killfile and ignore him. An alternative, if
you must, would be to post the same standard reply to his every post,
listing the manifold reasons why he ought to be ignored. Just my $0.02
worth." |
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