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Message |
| tankfixer... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:28 pm |
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Guest
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In article <3nr5f5ll6n4a6sba399uadv5ttsh14a9ub at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
eugene at (no spam) dynagen.co.za says...
[quote]
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 07:18:37 -0800, tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <atlas-bugged-B8DCD6.22201504112009 at (no spam) aries.ka.weretis.net>,
atlas-bugged at (no spam) invalid.invalid says...
In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
I know this.
Our friend may be unaware of it.
I suggest you look up what a toolmaker does - it is a highly
specialised trade. These are the people who are largely responsible
for the machines, jigs, etc. that turn out the tools your store is
full of.
[/quote]
I am aware of what a tool and die maker does.
The high school I attended back in the dark ages required a term of
machine shop where one got to learn some of the basics ...
We also spent time working with sheet metal for a term, automotive
priciples for a term and basic electrical circuit for a term.
All in our freshman year. |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:30 pm |
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Guest
|
In article <hcvlm2$8p5$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
[quote]
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c8caab97c6d1a8c2 at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <atlas-bugged-B8DCD6.22201504112009 at (no spam) aries.ka.weretis.net>,
atlas-bugged at (no spam) invalid.invalid says...
In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to
do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and
also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill
at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging
and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will
suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store
of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such
useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form
than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says
"You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do
it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his
mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he
recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use
keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as
having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
I know this.
Our friend may be unaware of it.
as to unaware. hand tools are made here.
Craftsman runs TV ads showing how Chinese workers covet the American made
tools
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html
Most Craftsman and Stanley/B&D tools are made here.
[/quote]
You are contradicting yourself then, you said china above.. |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 10:32 pm |
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Guest
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In article <qpEIm.865$W77.590 at (no spam) newsfe11.iad>, dnadan56 at (no spam) hotmail.com
says...
[quote]
Frogwatch wrote:
On Nov 5, 10:54 am, "La N" <nilita2004NOS... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Eugene Griessel wrote:
On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 10:57:30 GMT, "La N" <nilita2004NOS... at (no spam) yahoo.com
wrote:
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec0989... at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborger... at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to
know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I rely
on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his judgement
concerning people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every year
and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him without any
notice. When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store
of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do not
have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How on
earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two with
your machinist? That system worked out well in a small company I
used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who worked with
our senior guy for several years before the older man retired. I
was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital designer, but
had only basic analog electronics. He worked me through from
simple to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there
was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching the
next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who work
in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a tool are
deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people who are down
and out.
It is thus in most places - you might pay the plumber more than a
doctor but you would not want to do his job and you sneer at those who
do!
I don't begrudge their (tradesmen) wages at all. I was just stymied to hear
there are those who dont't believe think they make a decent wage. It just
bothers me to think that tool handlers are valued more in $ocioeconomic
term$ than those who work with people - whether it be teachers, social
workers, child care workers, etc.
- nilita
My machinist is off today for an eye operation (glaucoma) and another
employee told me he is not 75, he is 77, YIKES.
Last year, we needed to make some slots in something .003" wide and
the thinnest slitting saws you can normally buy are .006" thick. I
finally found a company in Syracuse, NY selling slitting saws .003"
thick and called them. I got an old German guy who refused to sell
them to me because he said "You'll break them". He refused to sell
them until he talked to our old machinist and was convinced he knew
what he was doing.
Ten years ago when we started selling our product, we were using a
borrowed lathe and mill that were made in the early 40s. The
machinist was getting extreme tolerances out of these old worn out
machines simply because he knew how. When we licensed the technology
to a big company, they sent a machinist down to see how we were making
these things. When he saw these old machines and how it was being
done his jaw dropped in shock. Now, then years later they still talk
about that.
I tell the machinist that when he decides he cannot work anymore, I'll
pay him to sit in a lawn chair with a glass of iced tea and order
people around.
You'll lose your Republican ID card for that, you know...
[/quote]
For paying an old man to supervise ?
You must be daft.. |
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| Dennis... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:43 pm |
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Guest
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Frogwatch wrote:
[quote]My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems to know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything to do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people (us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him aging and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful form than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says "You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can do it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of his mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely lost.
[/quote]
Someone's probably already said this, but there are attempts to put
such people's knowhow into artificial intelligence software programs.
The trouble with that is that such people's time is in high demand, and
priority has to be assigned to doing this.
I haven't heard of people wisdom being treated that way. Seems like
you could do a little of it.
A lot of things only come from experience. You're right, we don't
assign enough value to that. Far Eastern and traditional cultures are
better at that.
As individuals, we have to keep our skills up to date, so our
employers don't find us obsolete.
Dennis |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:52 pm |
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Guest
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"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:dd37f5hqr82gv45qdb967g9r8be24fv2kk at (no spam) 4ax.com...
:> "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:> :news:MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
:> :>
:> :> Where do they come from ?
:> :> The tool fairy ?
:> :
:> :machines. these things called computers do the hard work.
:> :they aren't hand forged anymore.
:> :
:>
:> No, the guy who builds the original article (usually by hand) does the
:> hard work. That's followed by the hard work of telling the computer
:> how to build what you want.
:>
:> You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do you?
:>
:
: its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up;
:CADCAM Fred.
:
I repeat. You've no experience at all with how this stuff works, do
you?
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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| William Hamblen... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:11 am |
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Guest
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On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 22:04:56 -0500, "Ray O'Hara"
<raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]its all done with machines. there is no need for a mock-up;
CADCAM Fred.
[/quote]
I was at a shop a couple of years ago that used 3D prototyping
machines. The nachines worked by projecting laser light into plastic
resin. Where the two beams crossed the resin hardened. It was the
closest thing to a Santa Claus machine I ever saw. You could build up
a plastic model of anything you wanted. You would then make molds
from the models and dies from the molds. The dies could make parts
like transmission housings by the million.
The only shop of any size I've ever been in that was exclusively
manual machining was a place that made gauges. A skilled machinist is
more accurate than a CNC machine. At least that was the case then.
Bud |
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| Jeffrey Hamilton... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:36 pm |
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Guest
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La N wrote:
[quote]"Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca> wrote in message
news:IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article
MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems
to know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I
rely on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his
judgement concerning people (us science geeks are bad with
such people skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes
more every year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to
him without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have
lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the
USA, we are doing little to replace such people and the
new guys just do not have the store of odd useful things in
their heads. How on earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two
with your machinist? That system worked out well in a small
company I used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who
worked with our senior guy for several years before the older
man retired. I was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the
area of analog electronics. I was a decent programmer and
digital designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He
worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. Given
his personality, there was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching
the next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who
work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a
tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people
who are down and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
corrupt those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people,
is the Conservatives and their ilk.
How true.
[/quote]
Hi sistah nilita,............<g>
cheers.....Jeff
CUPE local #1 |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:16 pm |
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Guest
|
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255d38157d60ee5a8c6 at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
[quote]In article <hcvlm2$8p5$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c8caab97c6d1a8c2 at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article <atlas-bugged-B8DCD6.22201504112009 at (no spam) aries.ka.weretis.net>,
atlas-bugged at (no spam) invalid.invalid says...
In article
MPG.255c0175fa8a7a3a8be at (no spam) news.bytemine.n
et>,
tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
In article <hcsqjt$qmg$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:43d1c157-46f4-4d25-aadd-7ef7170f4920 at (no spam) j19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 4, 2:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272 at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems
to
know
how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have anything
to
do
with CNC) from an entire career spent working at IBM followed
by
another career spent working at a university machine shop and
also
working as a policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his
skill
at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people
(us
science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see him
aging
and
resting his eyes more every year and I know somethign will
suddenly
happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge
and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are doing little
to
replace such people and the new guys just do not have the
store
of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save such
useful
skills?
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would
be
to
somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form
than
writing but how?
When I tell him something I want to have done, he always says
"You
know you're crazy" to which I reply 'Yeah, but I know YOU can
do
it"
and he laughs and sure enough a few days later he has an
answer.
Somehow, my problem must trigger things stored in the back of
his
mind
from 40 years ago that have not been used since then and he
recalls
it. Is there some way we can preserve this?
We need some way to download people's memories and then use
keywords
and key concepts to retrieve the related info. Not as good as
having
the person to do it but at least it would not be entirely
lost.
no one knows how to build a pyramid anymore either. the eath
keeps
spinning.
We do not need pyramids, we do need skilled toolmakers
======================================================================
stores are full of tools.
Where do they come from ?
The tool fairy ?
China
I know this.
Our friend may be unaware of it.
as to unaware. hand tools are made here.
Craftsman runs TV ads showing how Chinese workers covet the American made
tools
http://www.stillmadeinusa.com/tools.html
Most Craftsman and Stanley/B&D tools are made here.
You are contradicting yourself then, you said china above..
[/quote]
no I didn't. Malcom Reynolds said china , Pauley dear. |
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| Jeffrey Hamilton... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:19 am |
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Guest
|
tankfixer wrote:
[quote]In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article
MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems
to know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I
rely on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his
judgement concerning people (us science geeks are bad with
such people skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes
more every year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to
him without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have
lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real shame.
In the USA, we are doing little to replace such people and the
new guys just do not have the store of odd useful things in
their heads. How on earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two
with your machinist? That system worked out well in a small
company I used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who
worked with our senior guy for several years before the older
man retired. I was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the
area of analog electronics. I was a decent programmer and
digital designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He
worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. Given
his personality, there was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching
the next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who
work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a
tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people
who are down and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
corrupt those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people,
is the Conservatives and their ilk.
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
[/quote]
If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you are
deluded.
cheers.....Jeff |
|
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| Back to top |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:22 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1174 at (no spam) newsfe08.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
[quote]
tankfixer wrote:
In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article
MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who seems
to know how to do anything on old manual machines (won't have
anything to do with CNC) from an entire career spent working at
IBM followed by another career spent working at a university
machine shop and also working as a policeman. Not only do I
rely on him for his skill at making things but I rely on his
judgement concerning people (us science geeks are bad with
such people skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes
more every year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to
him without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have
lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real shame.
In the USA, we are doing little to replace such people and the
new guys just do not have the store of odd useful things in
their heads. How on earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the apprenticeship
system. Can you assign a worker to spend the next year or two
with your machinist? That system worked out well in a small
company I used to work for. We had an apprentice machinist who
worked with our senior guy for several years before the older
man retired. I was sort of an apprentice to my boss in the
area of analog electronics. I was a decent programmer and
digital designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He
worked me through from simple to more complex circuits. Given
his personality, there was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would be
to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more useful
form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the best
way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind teaching
the next generation---if you give them the time and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin could
pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who
work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a
tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people
who are down and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
corrupt those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people,
is the Conservatives and their ilk.
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you are
deluded.
[/quote]
Unions used to serve a good purpose.
Now they just serve tehmselves.. |
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| Back to top |
|
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| La N... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 1:24 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
tankfixer wrote:
[quote]In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1174 at (no spam) newsfe08.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article
MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com
says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who
seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines
(won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career
spent working at IBM followed by another career spent
working at a university machine shop and also working as a
policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people
(us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see
him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know
somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do
not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How
on earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the
apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the
next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out
well in a small company I used to work for. We had an
apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for
several years before the older man retired. I was sort of
an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I
was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only
basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple
to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a
lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would
be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more
useful form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the
best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind
teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and
resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin
could pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who
work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a
tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people
who are down and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
corrupt those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people,
is the Conservatives and their ilk.
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you
are deluded.
Unions used to serve a good purpose.
Now they just serve tehmselves..
[/quote]
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most
certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers. |
|
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| Back to top |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 3:52 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
:tankfixer wrote:
:> In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1174 at (no spam) newsfe08.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
:> says...
:>>
:>> tankfixer wrote:
:>>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
:>>> says...
:>>>>
:>>>> tankfixer wrote:
:>>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
:>>>>> nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
:>>>>>>
:>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote:
:>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:>>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
:>>>>>>>> In article
:>>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
:>>>>>>>> mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
:>>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
:>>>>>>>>> at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com
:>>>>>>>>> says...
:>>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who
:>>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines
:>>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career
:>>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent
:>>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a
:>>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
:>>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people
:>>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see
:>>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know
:>>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
:>>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
:>>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
:>>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do
:>>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How
:>>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
:>>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the
:>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the
:>>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out
:>>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an
:>>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for
:>>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of
:>>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I
:>>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only
:>>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple
:>>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a
:>>>>>>>>> lot of yelling
:>>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
:>>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would
:>>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more
:>>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
:>>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the
:>>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind
:>>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and
:>>>>>>>>> resources.
:>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
:>>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
:>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>>
:>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
:>>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
:>>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin
:>>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
:>>>>>>
:>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
:>>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who
:>>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a
:>>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people
:>>>>>> who are down and out.
:>>>>>
:>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
:>>>>> corrupt those who help people..
:>>>>
:>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people,
:>>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
:>>>
:>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
:>>
:>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you
:>> are deluded.
:>
:> Unions used to serve a good purpose.
:> Now they just serve tehmselves..
:
:You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most
:certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
:
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like *that*.
You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers, either.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn |
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| Back to top |
|
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| Mark Borgerson... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:32 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In article <sl1df5pujvtatdfbbsofct8eo3clksjkgc at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com says...
[quote]"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
:tankfixer wrote:
:> In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1174 at (no spam) newsfe08.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
:> says...
:
:>> tankfixer wrote:
:>>> In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
:>>> says...
:
:>>>> tankfixer wrote:
:>>>>> In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
:>>>>> nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
:
:>>>>>> Roger Conroy wrote:
:>>>>>>> "tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:>>>>>>> news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
:>>>>>>>> In article
:>>>>>>>> <MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
:>>>>>>>> mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
:
:>>>>>>>>> In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
:>>>>>>>>> at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com
:>>>>>>>>> says...
:>>>>>>>>>> My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who
:>>>>>>>>>> seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines
:>>>>>>>>>> (won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career
:>>>>>>>>>> spent working at IBM followed by another career spent
:>>>>>>>>>> working at a university machine shop and also working as a
:>>>>>>>>>> policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
:>>>>>>>>>> making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people
:>>>>>>>>>> (us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see
:>>>>>>>>>> him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know
:>>>>>>>>>> somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
:>>>>>>>>>> When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
:>>>>>>>>>> knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
:>>>>>>>>>> doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do
:>>>>>>>>>> not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How
:>>>>>>>>>> on earth can we save such useful skills?
:
:>>>>>>>>> The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the
:>>>>>>>>> apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the
:>>>>>>>>> next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out
:>>>>>>>>> well in a small company I used to work for. We had an
:>>>>>>>>> apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for
:>>>>>>>>> several years before the older man retired. I was sort of
:>>>>>>>>> an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I
:>>>>>>>>> was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only
:>>>>>>>>> basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple
:>>>>>>>>> to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a
:>>>>>>>>> lot of yelling
:>>>>>>>>> involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
:
:
:>>>>>>>>>> It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would
:>>>>>>>>>> be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more
:>>>>>>>>>> useful form than writing but how?
:
:>>>>>>>>> Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the
:>>>>>>>>> best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind
:>>>>>>>>> teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and
:>>>>>>>>> resources.
:
:>>>>>>>> Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
:>>>>>>>> things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
:
:
:
:>>>>>>> I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
:>>>>>>> aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
:>>>>>>> master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin
:>>>>>>> could pick up a lesson or two from them.
:
:>>>>>> Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
:>>>>>> members of unions and often make much more money than those who
:>>>>>> work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a
:>>>>>> tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people
:>>>>>> who are down and out.
:
:>>>>> Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
:>>>>> corrupt those who help people..
:
:>>>> As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people,
:>>>> is the Conservatives and their ilk.
:
:>>> If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
:
:>> If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you
:>> are deluded.
:
:> Unions used to serve a good purpose.
:> Now they just serve tehmselves..
:
:You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most
:certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
:
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like *that*.
You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers, either.
LOL! I don't think LaN claimed to speak on behalf of all workers.[/quote]
OTOH, if she, or any one other worker doesn't agree with TankFixer,
she has valid factual grounds to say the he doesn't speak on
behalf of all workers. IMHO, any assumption about ALL of any
diverse group is bound to be false.
Mark Borgerson |
|
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| Back to top |
|
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| La N... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 12:34 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Mark Borgerson wrote:
[quote]In article <sl1df5pujvtatdfbbsofct8eo3clksjkgc at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com says...
"La N" <nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
tankfixer wrote:
In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1174 at (no spam) newsfe08.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>,
bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article
MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com
says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who
seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines
(won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career
spent working at IBM followed by another career spent
working at a university machine shop and also working as a
policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning
people (us science geeks are bad with such people
skills). I see him aging and resting his eyes more every
year and I know somethign will suddenly happen to him
without any notice. When he is gone, the world will have
lost an huge store of knowledge and this seems a real
shame. In the USA, we are doing little to replace such
people and the new guys just do not have the store of odd
useful things in their heads. How on earth can we save
such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the
apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the
next year or two with your machinist? That system worked
out well in a small company I used to work for. We had an
apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for
several years before the older man retired. I was sort of
an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog
electronics. I was a decent programmer and digital
designer, but had only basic analog electronics. He
worked me through from simple to more complex circuits.
Given his personality, there was a lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make
would be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability
in a more useful form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the
best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind
teaching the next generation---if you give them the time
and resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who
make things with their hands are somehow less worthy of
respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies
for aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and
that the master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps
we gaijin could pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are
usually members of unions and often make much more money than
those who work in human/social services. Therefore, those
who pick up a tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those
who help people who are down and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
corrupt those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working
people, is the Conservatives and their ilk.
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you
are deluded.
Unions used to serve a good purpose.
Now they just serve tehmselves..
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that.
You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like *that*.
You most certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers, either.
LOL! I don't think LaN claimed to speak on behalf of all workers.
OTOH, if she, or any one other worker doesn't agree with TankFixer,
she has valid factual grounds to say the he doesn't speak on
behalf of all workers. IMHO, any assumption about ALL of any
diverse group is bound to be false.
[/quote]
Indeed. Thank you, Mark.
- nilita |
|
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| Back to top |
|
|
|
| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 5:32 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
In article <vutJm.51064$Db2.1749 at (no spam) edtnps83>, nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com
says...
[quote]
tankfixer wrote:
In article <9xsJm.2511$rE5.1174 at (no spam) newsfe08.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <IkDIm.7105$6c2.3694 at (no spam) newsfe03.iad>, bberesford at (no spam) cogeco.ca
says...
tankfixer wrote:
In article <ucyIm.50611$Db2.2797 at (no spam) edtnps83>,
nilita2004NOSPAM at (no spam) yahoo.com says...
Roger Conroy wrote:
"tankfixer" <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.255c024f23d66e278bf at (no spam) news.bytemine.net...
In article
MPG.255bbf9c81e1cec098993f at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>,
mborgerson at (no spam) comcast.net says...
In article <df65ebea-6617-46e2-b6cc-4ebe78b63272
at (no spam) v36g2000yqv.googlegroups.com>, ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com
says...
My most valuable employee is a 75 year old machinist who
seems to know how to do anything on old manual machines
(won't have anything to do with CNC) from an entire career
spent working at IBM followed by another career spent
working at a university machine shop and also working as a
policeman. Not only do I rely on him for his skill at
making things but I rely on his judgement concerning people
(us science geeks are bad with such people skills). I see
him aging and resting his eyes more every year and I know
somethign will suddenly happen to him without any notice.
When he is gone, the world will have lost an huge store of
knowledge and this seems a real shame. In the USA, we are
doing little to replace such people and the new guys just do
not have the store of odd useful things in their heads. How
on earth can we save such useful skills?
The classic way to maintain such knowlege is the
apprenticeship system. Can you assign a worker to spend the
next year or two with your machinist? That system worked out
well in a small company I used to work for. We had an
apprentice machinist who worked with our senior guy for
several years before the older man retired. I was sort of
an apprentice to my boss in the area of analog electronics. I
was a decent programmer and digital designer, but had only
basic analog electronics. He worked me through from simple
to more complex circuits. Given his personality, there was a
lot of yelling
involved at times----but I learned a lot that way.
It seems to me that the greatest advance we could make would
be to somehow preserve this knowledge and ability in a more
useful form than writing but how?
Other than the Vulcan Mind Meld, an apprentice may be the
best way. Most really good technicians don't seem to mind
teaching the next generation---if you give them the time and
resources.
Unfortunately our society too often says that people who make
things with their hands are somehow less worthy of respect..
I've heard that in Japan the Emperor's budget pays subsidies for
aprentices of the ancient arts such as sword making and that the
master craftsmen are very highly regarded. Perhaps we gaijin
could pick up a lesson or two from them.
Strange. In Canada people who make things with hands are usually
members of unions and often make much more money than those who
work in human/social services. Therefore, those who pick up a
tool are deemed to be worth more $$$ than those who help people
who are down and out.
Don't worry, the SEIU union thugs will get to Canada soon and
corrupt those who help people..
As a rule, here in Canada we've found the enemy of working people,
is the Conservatives and their ilk.
If you think unions are in it for working people you are deluded.
If *you* think working people will grt a break without unions, you
are deluded.
Unions used to serve a good purpose.
Now they just serve tehmselves..
You should always add "IMHO" when you make a statement like that. You most
certainly do not speak on behalf of all workers.
[/quote]
Never claimed I was speaking for all the "workers"..
Just as unions don't speak for all "workers" |
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