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| Frogwatch... |
 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:13 pm |
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Guest
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Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive? |
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| Frogwatch... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:36 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 9:17 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive?
FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
what you should read Dave, is John Toland's Pulitzer Prize winning book "The
Rising Sun" it is a book on the Japanese side of WWII, its a great read too.
[/quote]
Thanks Ray, I'll order it from Amazon |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:17 pm |
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Guest
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"Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
[quote]Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive?
[/quote]
FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
what you should read Dave, is John Toland's Pulitzer Prize winning book "The
Rising Sun" it is a book on the Japanese side of WWII, its a great read too. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:14 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 9:13 pm, Frogwatch <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
[quote]Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive?
[/quote]
Remember that Konoye would have had to go to FDR. Not very likely,
given Japanese ideas about subservience and the ability of the 1941
transportation system to deliver either one to a "neutral" site. |
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| Keith Willshaw... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:52 am |
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Guest
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"Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
[quote]Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
[/quote]
Negotiations were actually going on in Washington as the
attack was taking place
[quote]What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
[/quote]
Not without a complete withdrawal from French IndoChina and
China.
[quote]If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior
[/quote]
No, the militarists were hell bent on war.
[quote]or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive?
[/quote]
That's exactly what would happen. It would reinforce their conviction
that the western powers were too decadent and cowardly to fight.
Keith |
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| Keith Willshaw... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:05 am |
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Guest
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"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
[quote]
"Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive?
FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
[/quote]
Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
[quote]what you should read Dave, is John Toland's Pulitzer Prize winning book
"The Rising Sun" it is a book on the Japanese side of WWII, its a great
read too.
[/quote]
I recommend ' The Reluctant Admiral' by Hiroyuki Agawa. Based on interviews
with his subordinates, family and surviving members of the Japanese
government
it is more than just a bio of the naval leader. It details his political
struggles
against the militarists in Japan.
He repeatedly warned that war with the west would end in Japanese defeat.
He even went so far as to tell the Japanese government that while it was
impossible for Japan to achieve the sort of miltary victory that would end
with Japanese troops occupying Washington it was very likely that a
war would end with US troops occupying Tokyo.
The miltarists hated him for this and hatched several plots to
assassinate him. Eventually the navy were forced to order him to sea
for his own safety.
Keith |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:46 am |
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Guest
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"Keith Willshaw" <keith at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
:news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
:>
:> "Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:> news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
:>> Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
:>> late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
:>> in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
:>> USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
:>> embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
:>> poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
:>> dunno.
:>> In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
:>> Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
:>> embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
:>> agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
:>> war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
:>> to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
:>> and there was war.
:>> What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
:>> exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
:>> Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
:>> Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
:>> much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
:>> to no result.
:>> What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
:>> withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
:>> partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
:>> because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
:>> Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
:>> without going to war with the USA?
:>> If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
:>> moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
:>> make them more boldly offensive?
:>
:> FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
:>
:
:Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
:wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
:
Then why did he do everything short of actually having official US
forces open fire on Japanese troops?
--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer |
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| Ray O'Hara... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 11:40 am |
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Guest
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"Keith Willshaw" <keith at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:uvcJm.29368$tF5.26784 at (no spam) newsfe25.ams2...
[quote]
"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
"Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive?
FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
what you should read Dave, is John Toland's Pulitzer Prize winning book
"The Rising Sun" it is a book on the Japanese side of WWII, its a great
read too.
I recommend ' The Reluctant Admiral' by Hiroyuki Agawa. Based on
interviews
with his subordinates, family and surviving members of the Japanese
government
it is more than just a bio of the naval leader. It details his political
struggles
against the militarists in Japan.
He repeatedly warned that war with the west would end in Japanese defeat.
He even went so far as to tell the Japanese government that while it was
impossible for Japan to achieve the sort of miltary victory that would end
with Japanese troops occupying Washington it was very likely that a
war would end with US troops occupying Tokyo.
The miltarists hated him for this and hatched several plots to
assassinate him. Eventually the navy were forced to order him to sea
for his own safety.
Keith
[/quote]
The one Japanese POW captured at Pearl Harbor was put on a train and shipped
across the country through Chicago to Tennessee, after seeing the huge grain
fields and industrial cities he remarked that their leaders had lied to them
about the United States and he didn't believe Japan had a chance.
He like most Japanese had no concept of the size of the U.S. |
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| frank... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 1:26 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 5:14 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]tankfixer <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
:In article <dv1bf5t1on4sbilvl2f132spehv0lfd... at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
:fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com says...
:
:> "Keith Willshaw" <ke... at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:> :
:> :"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
:> :news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
:> :
:> :> "Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:> :>news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
:> :>> Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
:> :>> late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
:> :>> in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
:> :>> USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
:> :>> embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
:> :>> poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
:> :>> dunno.
:> :>> In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
:> :>> Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
:> :>> embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
:> :>> agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
:> :>> war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
:> :>> to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
:> :>> and there was war.
:> :>> What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
:> :>> exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
:> :>> Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
:> :>> Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
:> :>> much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
:> :>> to no result.
:> :>> What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
:> :>> withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
:> :>> partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
:> :>> because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
:> :>> Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
:> :>> without going to war with the USA?
:> :>> If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
:> :>> moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
:> :>> make them more boldly offensive?
:> :
:> :> FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
:> :
:> :
:> :Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
:> :wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
:> :
:
:> Then why did he do everything short of actually having official US
:> forces open fire on Japanese troops?
:
:Such as ?
:
Take a history course. It'll be covered. I don't have time to teach
you one (and you can't afford my hourly rate).
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson
[/quote]
I wouldn't waste my time on Gingrich's novel but did he bring up the
point that the US fired the first shot as the Ward sank the minisub?
Evil white people messing with the Greater East Asia Co Prosperity
Sphere.....I can see the revisionists in Japan now rewriting the
school text books. |
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| Keith Willshaw... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 4:41 pm |
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Guest
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"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dv1bf5t1on4sbilvl2f132spehv0lfd2e0 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
[quote]"Keith Willshaw" <keith at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
:news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
:
:> "Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:
news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
:>> Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
:>> late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
:>> in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
:>> USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
:>> embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
:>> poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
:>> dunno.
:>> In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
:>> Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
:>> embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
:>> agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
:>> war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
:>> to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
:>> and there was war.
:>> What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
:>> exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
:>> Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
:>> Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
:>> much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
:>> to no result.
:>> What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
:>> withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
:>> partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
:>> because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
:>> Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
:>> without going to war with the USA?
:>> If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
:>> moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
:>> make them more boldly offensive?
:
:> FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
:
:
:Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
:wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
:
Then why did he do everything short of actually having official US
forces open fire on Japanese troops?
[/quote]
In short he didnt.
US policy was not to provide mar materials to a nation that was
waging an aggressive war. These days they would call it an
ethical foreign policy.
Of course in the case of Germany he DID order the USN to open
fire on German naval vessels.
Keith |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:33 pm |
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Guest
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"Keith Willshaw" <keith at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:"Fred J. McCall" <fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in message
:news:dv1bf5t1on4sbilvl2f132spehv0lfd2e0 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
:> "Keith Willshaw" <keith at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
:> :news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
:> :>
:> :> "Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:> :>
:> news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
:> :>> Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
:> :>> late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
:> :>> in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
:> :>> USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
:> :>> embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
:> :>> poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
:> :>> dunno.
:> :>> In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
:> :>> Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
:> :>> embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
:> :>> agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
:> :>> war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
:> :>> to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
:> :>> and there was war.
:> :>> What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
:> :>> exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
:> :>> Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
:> :>> Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
:> :>> much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
:> :>> to no result.
:> :>> What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
:> :>> withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
:> :>> partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
:> :>> because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
:> :>> Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
:> :>> without going to war with the USA?
:> :>> If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
:> :>> moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
:> :>> make them more boldly offensive?
:> :>
:> :> FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
:> :>
:> :
:> :Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
:> :wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
:> :
:>
:> Then why did he do everything short of actually having official US
:> forces open fire on Japanese troops?
:>
:
:In short he didnt.
:
Wrong.
:
:US policy was not to provide mar materials to a nation that was
:waging an aggressive war. These days they would call it an
:ethical foreign policy.
:
You're either a neutral and sell to all comers or you are not.
Providing everything (including men) to China while shutting down
existing trade with Japan pretty much was an act of war. When you
start taking sides, don't be too surprised if the other guy thinks
you're part of the enemy.
:
:Of course in the case of Germany he DID order the USN to open
:fire on German naval vessels.
:
Yep. FDR wanted into BOTH wars.
--
"It's always different. It's always complex. But at some point,
somebody has to draw the line. And that somebody is always me....
I am the law."
-- Buffy, The Vampire Slayer |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:55 pm |
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Guest
|
In article <hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org>, raymond-
ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com says...
[quote]
"Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
dunno.
In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
and there was war.
What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
to no result.
What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
without going to war with the USA?
If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
make them more boldly offensive?
FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
[/quote]
That's about the craziest thing I've seen you write in a while.
[quote]
what you should read Dave, is John Toland's Pulitzer Prize winning book "The
Rising Sun" it is a book on the Japanese side of WWII, its a great read too.[/quote] |
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| tankfixer... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 5:56 pm |
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Guest
|
In article <dv1bf5t1on4sbilvl2f132spehv0lfd2e0 at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com says...
[quote]
"Keith Willshaw" <keith at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:
:"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
:news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
:
:> "Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:> news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
:>> Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
:>> late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
:>> in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
:>> USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
:>> embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
:>> poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
:>> dunno.
:>> In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
:>> Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
:>> embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
:>> agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
:>> war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
:>> to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
:>> and there was war.
:>> What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
:>> exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
:>> Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
:>> Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
:>> much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
:>> to no result.
:>> What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
:>> withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
:>> partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
:>> because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
:>> Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
:>> without going to war with the USA?
:>> If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
:>> moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
:>> make them more boldly offensive?
:
:> FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
:
:
:Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
:wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
:
Then why did he do everything short of actually having official US
forces open fire on Japanese troops?
[/quote]
Such as ? |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:14 pm |
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Guest
|
tankfixer <paul.carrier at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
:In article <dv1bf5t1on4sbilvl2f132spehv0lfd2e0 at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
:fjmccall at (no spam) gmail.com says...
:>
:> "Keith Willshaw" <keith at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:>
:> :
:> :"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-ohara at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
:> :news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
:> :>
:> :> "Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
:> :> news:b53a34cd-d1f9-4b98-82b3-84fe32400edd at (no spam) g23g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
:> :>> Am still reading Gingritch's "Pearl Harbor" concerning events of the
:> :>> late 1930s and early 40s that led up to the attack and am wondering if
:> :>> in mid-1941 the war could have been avoided between Japan and the
:> :>> USA. In this book, some senior Japanese officials were very
:> :>> embarassed over the behavior of the Jap army in Nanking and blamed the
:> :>> poor restraint of the Army claiming the Navy was better behaved. I
:> :>> dunno.
:> :>> In the book, there is a conversation between US ambassador Grew and
:> :>> Japanese Foreign Minister Teijiro about Roosevelt declaring a complete
:> :>> embargo on Japan over Japan's occupation of Indochina. They both
:> :>> agree that unless one side or the other backs down a bit there will be
:> :>> war. The Foreign Minister suggests some "give and take" of some kind
:> :>> to avoid war. Obviously, in real life, the embargo went into effect
:> :>> and there was war.
:> :>> What if, Roosevelt had agreed to partially lift the embargo in
:> :>> exchange for something? Prince Konoye had secretely asked Secretary
:> :>> Hull for a private meeting with Roosevelt to discuss such, perhaps in
:> :>> Anchorage or Hawaii. However, the admin thought this would be too
:> :>> much like Munich with Chamberlain giving up stuff over and over again
:> :>> to no result.
:> :>> What if such a meeting had taken place and Japan had agreed to
:> :>> withdraw from Southern ports in Indochina in exchange for only a
:> :>> partial oil embargo. Could war have been prevented? I think "No"
:> :>> because Japan saw no other way out other than getting the oil of SE
:> :>> Asia. IS there some way they could have made their oil supply certain
:> :>> without going to war with the USA?
:> :>> If there had been no war betwen USA and Japan, would the Japanese ever
:> :>> moderated their behavior or would getting access to the oil simply
:> :>> make them more boldly offensive?
:> :>
:> :> FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
:> :>
:> :
:> :Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
:> :wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
:> :
:>
:> Then why did he do everything short of actually having official US
:> forces open fire on Japanese troops?
:
:Such as ?
:
Take a history course. It'll be covered. I don't have time to teach
you one (and you can't afford my hourly rate).
--
"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the
truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong."
-- Thomas Jefferson |
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| Fred J. McCall... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 7:00 pm |
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Guest
|
frank <dhssresearcher at (no spam) netscape.net> wrote:
:On Nov 7, 5:14 pm, Fred J. McCall <fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
:> tankfixer <paul.carr... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
:>
:> :In article <dv1bf5t1on4sbilvl2f132spehv0lfd... at (no spam) 4ax.com>,
:> :fjmcc... at (no spam) gmail.com says...
:> :>
:> :> "Keith Willshaw" <ke... at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :"Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote in message
:> :> :news:hd2lb4$cg4$1 at (no spam) news.eternal-september.org...
:> :> :>
:> :> :> FDR wanted war and wasn't about to do anything that prevented it.
:> :> :>
:> :> :
:> :> :Not with Japan he didnt. No sensible leader wants to fight two
:> :> :wars at the same time and he knew war with Germany was coming.
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> Then why did he do everything short of actually having official US
:> :> forces open fire on Japanese troops?
:> :
:> :Such as ?
:> :
:>
:> Take a history course. It'll be covered. I don't have time to teach
:> you one (and you can't afford my hourly rate).
:>
:
:I wouldn't waste my time on Gingrich's novel but did he bring up the
:point that the US fired the first shot as the Ward sank the minisub?
:Evil white people messing with the Greater East Asia Co Prosperity
:Sphere.....I can see the revisionists in Japan now rewriting the
:school text books.
:
How the hell would I know? My knowledge of history goes back to what
I was taught in high school, back in a time when they actually taught
the details of such things.
--
"Some people get lost in thought because it's such unfamiliar
territory."
--G. Behn |
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