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| Archimedes' Lever... |
 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:14 am |
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Guest
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:37:53 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky
<nospam at (no spam) nowhere.com> wrote:
[quote]
Ross Herbert wrote:
One thing you need to remember.. if there are any heat generating components on
the board, encapsulation in a hard compound may cause subsequent fracturing of
components or solder joints because they can't expand and contract.
I know an engineer who spent many years mixing different compounds and
fillers trying to create solid substance with minimal expansion or
contraction while it is cured, and which will not rip the components off
the PCB because of thermal effects. This is no simple problem.
Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
[/quote]
Quite simple. Conformal coat the PCB prior to potting.
Still getting breakage? Conformal coat... twice. Make a blanket. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:30 am |
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Guest
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On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 21:46:50 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com>
wrote:
You did not write it, but I am lazy tonight...
[quote]It also makes the board likely to fail. The solvent in spray paint is
hard on parts.
[/quote]
So much horseshit.
Transformer encapsulant (varnish) from a spray can. Dolph's. brand, to
be specific.
We coated THOUSANDS of HIGH VOLTAGE power supplies with a volatile
vehicle spray can applied coating, and baked it dry, after a vacuuming of
the board.
We have even done vacuum impregnation of the PCB which draws the
coating up inside the unmasked PCB media.
And we used a volatile solvent type thinner to cut the main gallon
with. |
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| MooseFET... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:31 am |
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On Nov 5, 9:46 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
[quote]On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:42:45 -0800 (PST), MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net
[....]
It also makes the board likely to fail. The solvent in spray paint is
hard on parts. As a result the product will get a reputation for
being crap. Since nobody wants to make a copy of a crap product,
people will be less likely to copy it.
Ha.. Copy protection by deliberate low quality.
[/quote]
This is why cars made today don't look like the Pinto.
A company in Redmond Washington was trying the idea on software. I
wonder what ever happened to them. |
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| MooseFET... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:34 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 8:37 pm, Vladimir Vassilevsky <nos... at (no spam) nowhere.com> wrote:
[quote]Ross Herbert wrote:
One thing you need to remember.. if there are any heat generating components on
the board, encapsulation in a hard compound may cause subsequent fracturing of
components or solder joints because they can't expand and contract.
I know an engineer who spent many years mixing different compounds and
fillers trying to create solid substance with minimal expansion or
contraction while it is cured, and which will not rip the components off
the PCB because of thermal effects. This is no simple problem.
[/quote]
You also have to match the thermal expansion. This makes it extra
hard because you need to balance two things.
I went down the potting road in the past and discovered that an
aluminum housing was cheaper to do in production. |
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| Ken S. Tucker... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:14 am |
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On Nov 5, 6:42 pm, MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 4:19 pm, krw <k... at (no spam) att.bizzzzzzzzzzz> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:08:58 -0800 (PST), "Ken S. Tucker"
dynam... at (no spam) vianet.on.ca> wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:46 pm, "J.A. Legris" <jaleg... at (no spam) sympatico.ca> wrote:
On Nov 4, 12:33 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:10:48 -0800 (PST), "J.A. Legris"
jaleg... at (no spam) sympatico.ca> wrote:
IIRC you should apply for the patent before you release the product
(or even just keep it secret) or you may lose your rights. This
presumes patenting the thing is a good idea in the first place - which
is unlikely unless you have deep pockets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art
It's not fair if I lose my patentability rights when I'd like to
release 200 units for ~field testing~ 
to tweek and finalize the design.
The wikipedia article mentions that you can protect your rights by
obtaining non-disclosure agreements.
We spray paint our PCB's black, for a sealant and thermodynamic
(black-body) radiation, it also makes a direct copy difficult.
Not sure why you think black paint increases thermal radiation, but
it's certainly not going to stop anyone from copying the design. It
may slow them down by about five minutes. Maybe.
It also makes the board likely to fail. The solvent in spray paint is
hard on parts. As a result the product will get a reputation for
being crap. Since nobody wants to make a copy of a crap product,
people will be less likely to copy it.
[/quote]
That's funny. I'll write a memo to QC and production right now!
"MooseFET" approves your spray paint.
Ken |
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| MooseFET... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:25 pm |
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On Nov 6, 8:14 am, "Ken S. Tucker" <dynam... at (no spam) vianet.on.ca> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 6:42 pm, MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net> wrote:
[....]
It also makes the board likely to fail. The solvent in spray paint is
hard on parts. As a result the product will get a reputation for
being crap. Since nobody wants to make a copy of a crap product,
people will be less likely to copy it.
That's funny. I'll write a memo to QC and production right now!
"MooseFET" approves your spray paint.
Ken
[/quote]
Quality control is like crowd control. You have riot control to make
sure crowds don't get out of hand and you have quality control to make
sure quality doesn't get out of hand. This way, people won't want to
copy your products. |
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| Greegor... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:56 pm |
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On Nov 3, 1:15 am, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org>
wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:03:41 -0800 (PST), Greegor <greego... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
How do you like getting products made that way?
Unless YOU QUOTE who you are responding to, nobody will know who or
what the fuck you are talking about.
Not everyone reads or looks at there news the same way.
Relying on threaded views is retarded.
QUOTE what you are referring to. D'oh!
[/quote]
Read the subject title, Archy!
SUBJECT: "PCB Encapsulants to Annoy Copy Pirates"
G > How do you like getting products made that way? |
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| Ken S. Tucker... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:59 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 7:20 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org>
wrote:
[quote]On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:08:58 -0800 (PST), "Ken S. Tucker"
dynam... at (no spam) vianet.on.ca> wrote:
On Nov 4, 7:46 pm, "J.A. Legris" <jaleg... at (no spam) sympatico.ca> wrote:
On Nov 4, 12:33 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:10:48 -0800 (PST), "J.A. Legris"
jaleg... at (no spam) sympatico.ca> wrote:
IIRC you should apply for the patent before you release the product
(or even just keep it secret) or you may lose your rights. This
presumes patenting the thing is a good idea in the first place - which
is unlikely unless you have deep pockets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art
It's not fair if I lose my patentability rights when I'd like to
release 200 units for ~field testing~
to tweek and finalize the design.
The wikipedia article mentions that you can protect your rights by
obtaining non-disclosure agreements.
We spray paint our PCB's black, for a sealant and thermodynamic
(black-body) radiation, it also makes a direct copy difficult.
Ken
You should get a good, thermally conductive epoxy paint to seal it up
in, and *then* coat it with real black body paint, which contains enough
Carbon to worry me as a direct spray on, but would be fine as an overcoat
on the thermal epoxy. Then, you have a conductively cooled device from
the source through the epoxy, and a radiant cooled device from the "heat
sink" POV. That paint is pretty good at "emitting" the energy 'behind
it'.
[/quote]
Your thinking is appreciated.
Our standard was set using a 10M ohm resistor, measured accurately
then spraying it and the leads, and then measure the diff, you know.
Following that, we choose to protect PCB's that way to start.
Of course a good circuit design is where it begins.
Ken |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:11 pm |
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On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 06:31:34 -0800 (PST), MooseFET <kensmith at (no spam) rahul.net>
wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 9:46 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 18:42:45 -0800 (PST), MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net
[....]
It also makes the board likely to fail. The solvent in spray paint is
hard on parts. As a result the product will get a reputation for
being crap. Since nobody wants to make a copy of a crap product,
people will be less likely to copy it.
Ha.. Copy protection by deliberate low quality.
This is why cars made today don't look like the Pinto.
A company in Redmond Washington was trying the idea on software. I
wonder what ever happened to them.
[/quote]
You don't even rate the peanut gallery.
That was Retard Gallery Comment.
Right where you belong too. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:20 pm |
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Guest
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On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:56:40 -0800 (PST), Greegor <greegor47 at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Nov 3, 1:15 am, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org
wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:03:41 -0800 (PST), Greegor <greego... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
How do you like getting products made that way?
Unless YOU QUOTE who you are responding to, nobody will know who or
what the fuck you are talking about.
Not everyone reads or looks at there news the same way.
Relying on threaded views is retarded.
QUOTE what you are referring to. D'oh!
Read the subject title, Archy!
SUBJECT: "PCB Encapsulants to Annoy Copy Pirates"
G > How do you like getting products made that way?
[/quote]
Folks respond to the BODY of a post, not the fucking topic title. Those
that do have their reward, and are pretty fucking stupid as well.
Also, why would some fucking total retard snip the entire body
containing the details of what the person wanted to know, just to make a
snide fucking peanut gallery comment?
Oh... wait... That was a Retard Gallery comment. It's all clear now. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:20 pm |
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Guest
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On Thu, 5 Nov 2009 15:08:58 -0800 (PST), "Ken S. Tucker"
<dynamics at (no spam) vianet.on.ca> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 4, 7:46 pm, "J.A. Legris" <jaleg... at (no spam) sympatico.ca> wrote:
On Nov 4, 12:33 pm, D from BC <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
On Wed, 4 Nov 2009 09:10:48 -0800 (PST), "J.A. Legris"
jaleg... at (no spam) sympatico.ca> wrote:
IIRC you should apply for the patent before you release the product
(or even just keep it secret) or you may lose your rights. This
presumes patenting the thing is a good idea in the first place - which
is unlikely unless you have deep pockets.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prior_art
It's not fair if I lose my patentability rights when I'd like to
release 200 units for ~field testing~
to tweek and finalize the design.
The wikipedia article mentions that you can protect your rights by
obtaining non-disclosure agreements.
We spray paint our PCB's black, for a sealant and thermodynamic
(black-body) radiation, it also makes a direct copy difficult.
Ken
[/quote]
You should get a good, thermally conductive epoxy paint to seal it up
in, and *then* coat it with real black body paint, which contains enough
Carbon to worry me as a direct spray on, but would be fine as an overcoat
on the thermal epoxy. Then, you have a conductively cooled device from
the source through the epoxy, and a radiant cooled device from the "heat
sink" POV. That paint is pretty good at "emitting" the energy 'behind
it'. |
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| Ross Herbert... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:50 am |
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Guest
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On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 01:14:03 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
:On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:37:53 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky
:<nospam at (no spam) nowhere.com> wrote:
:
:>
:>
:>Ross Herbert wrote:
:>
:>
:>> One thing you need to remember.. if there are any heat generating components
on
:>> the board, encapsulation in a hard compound may cause subsequent fracturing
of
:>> components or solder joints because they can't expand and contract.
:>
:>I know an engineer who spent many years mixing different compounds and
:>fillers trying to create solid substance with minimal expansion or
:>contraction while it is cured, and which will not rip the components off
:>the PCB because of thermal effects. This is no simple problem.
:>
:>
:>Vladimir Vassilevsky
:>DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
:>http://www.abvolt.com
:
:
: Quite simple. Conformal coat the PCB prior to potting.
:
: Still getting breakage? Conformal coat... twice. Make a blanket.
It is far simpler and more effective to simply dip the whole board in pourable
silicone rubber prior to encapsulation with the hard epoxy. That will leave
plenty of room for expansion. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:15 am |
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Guest
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On Sat, 07 Nov 2009 08:50:44 GMT, Ross Herbert <rherber1 at (no spam) bigpond.net.au>
wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 01:14:03 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
:On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:37:53 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky
:<nospam at (no spam) nowhere.com> wrote:
:
:
:
:>Ross Herbert wrote:
:
:
:>> One thing you need to remember.. if there are any heat generating components
on
:>> the board, encapsulation in a hard compound may cause subsequent fracturing
of
:>> components or solder joints because they can't expand and contract.
:
:>I know an engineer who spent many years mixing different compounds and
:>fillers trying to create solid substance with minimal expansion or
:>contraction while it is cured, and which will not rip the components off
:>the PCB because of thermal effects. This is no simple problem.
:
:
:>Vladimir Vassilevsky
:>DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
:>http://www.abvolt.com
:
:
: Quite simple. Conformal coat the PCB prior to potting.
:
: Still getting breakage? Conformal coat... twice. Make a blanket.
It is far simpler and more effective to simply dip the whole board in pourable
silicone rubber prior to encapsulation with the hard epoxy. That will leave
plenty of room for expansion.
[/quote]
Conformal coating can be spray applied or used as a dip, and the
coating thickness can be altered by simply buying the right coating to
achieve the right thickness desired in a single dip.
Make it too thick, and the security features go away. |
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| Ken S. Tucker... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:31 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 7, 12:50 am, Ross Herbert <rherb... at (no spam) bigpond.net.au> wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 06 Nov 2009 01:14:03 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
:On Thu, 05 Nov 2009 22:37:53 -0600, Vladimir Vassilevsky:<nos... at (no spam) nowhere.com> wrote:
:
:
:>:>Ross Herbert wrote:
:
:
:>> One thing you need to remember.. if there are any heat generating components
on
:>> the board, encapsulation in a hard compound may cause subsequent fracturing
of
:>> components or solder joints because they can't expand and contract.
:
:>I know an engineer who spent many years mixing different compounds and
:>fillers trying to create solid substance with minimal expansion or
:>contraction while it is cured, and which will not rip the components off
:>the PCB because of thermal effects. This is no simple problem.
:
:
:>Vladimir Vassilevsky
:>DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
:>http://www.abvolt.com
:
:
: Quite simple. Conformal coat the PCB prior to potting.
:
: Still getting breakage? Conformal coat... twice. Make a blanket.
It is far simpler and more effective to simply dip the whole board in pourable
silicone rubber prior to encapsulation with the hard epoxy. That will leave
plenty of room for expansion.
[/quote]
Well ok, as long as the silly-cone has the appropriate thermal
conduction. I'd order a thermistor measure on the x-PCB to
verify temp remains happy on power components, if it has any.
Ken |
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| Greegor... |
| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 2:53 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 8:20 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org>
wrote:
[quote]On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 17:56:40 -0800 (PST), Greegor <greego... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
On Nov 3, 1:15 am, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org
wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:03:41 -0800 (PST), Greegor <greego... at (no spam) gmail.com
wrote:
How do you like getting products made that way?
Unless YOU QUOTE who you are responding to, nobody will know who or
what the fuck you are talking about.
Not everyone reads or looks at there news the same way.
Relying on threaded views is retarded.
QUOTE what you are referring to. D'oh!
[/quote]
G > Read the subject title, Archy!
SUBJECT: "PCB Encapsulants to Annoy Copy Pirates"
G > How do you like getting products made that way?
AL > Folks respond to the BODY of a post, not
AL > the fucking topic title. Those that do have
AL > their reward, and are pretty fucking
AL > stupid as well.
AL >
AL > Also, why would some fucking total retard
AL > snip the entire body containing the details
AL > of what the person wanted to know, just
AL > to make a snide fucking peanut gallery
AL > comment?
AL >
AL > Oh... wait... That was a Retard Gallery
AL > comment. It's all clear now.
And here you are, Archy! |
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