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| Mike R... |
 Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 6:11 am |
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Guest
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Listeros,
In a very important report in Nature Magazine, Dennis Jenkins, the
archaeologist who found the pre-Clovis human coprolites dated to
14,000-14,270 years old in Paisley Cave in Oregon, now claims to have
found the oldest human artifact ever found in the Americas--a scraper
like tool that dates back to 14,230 years ago. The date was calculated
by way of sediment and radiocarbon dating. The tool was found in a
rock shelter in the caves near Paisley, Oregon. There were some
criticisms of the dating of the coprolites because no human artifacts
were found with them. This discovery of a tool strengthens the
veracity of the earlier claim.
Nature has the story here;
http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091105/full/news.2009.1058.html
Mike Ruggeri
Mike Ruggeri's Pre-Clovis and Clovis World
http://tinyurl.com/2m8725
Breaking Pre-Clovis and Clovis News
http://tinyurl.com/d3xeln |
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| Lee Olsen... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:30 pm |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 8:11 am, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
[quote]Listeros,
This discovery of a tool strengthens the
veracity of the earlier claim.
[/quote]
No it doesn't.
[quote]
Nature has the story here;http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091105/full/news.2009.1058.html
[/quote]
"then I saw the serrated edge."
I wonder if the edge of this scaper looks anything like the edge of
the
Old Crow flesher? |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:07 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 5, 9:30 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 8:11 am, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
Listeros,
This discovery of a tool strengthens the
veracity of the earlier claim.
No it doesn't.
Nature has the story here;http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091105/full/news.2009.1058.html
"then I saw the serrated edge."
I wonder if the edge of this scaper looks anything like the edge of
the
Old Crow flesher?
[/quote]
http://yukon.taiga.net/vuntutrda/archaeol/fig_1b.htm |
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| Lee Olsen... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:24 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 7:07 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 5, 9:30 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:11 am, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
Listeros,
This discovery of a tool strengthens the
veracity of the earlier claim.
No it doesn't.
Nature has the story here;http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091105/full/news.2009.1058.html
"then I saw the serrated edge."
I wonder if the edge of this scaper looks anything like the edge of
the
Old Crow flesher?
http://yukon.taiga.net/vuntutrda/archaeol/fig_1b.htm- Hide quoted text -
[/quote]
Thanks Jack.
I have the original paper. Here is how it all went down.
The original 14C date was conventional at (no spam) about 26,000 years. All
during
the time of the debate, some critics questioned whether or not it was
man
made. At that time they assumed the date was correct because that
was all anyone had. Then AMS dating came along and a AMS redate said
it was only about 1,800 years old. At that point it really wasn't
important
anymore if it were man made or not. It no longer was evidence for the
antiquity of man in the Americas.
I have a neighbor who makes custom knives. He uses some (legal)
mammoth
ivory for handles. If 5000 years from now an archaeologist were to 14C
test
his mammoth handle, we know it would read at least 17,000 years old.
Wow,
a 17 kya steel knife! Two things are known about Oregon cave use.
1) Native Americans sometimes dug in those caves and
2) more recent native peoples sometimes used older bone and teeth to
make
things, just as my neighbor does today.
Personally, I'm taking Meltzer's advice...first Jenkins has to show
how those
artifacts got into the cave and when and if the bone is really an
artifact. I haven't
seen a photo of this scraper yet, but I'm sure one will turn up on the
net soon.
Actually, I haven't seen a photo of the stemmed point fragment from
the Paisley
lower level either. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:09 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 2:24 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 6, 7:07 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
On Nov 5, 9:30 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:11 am, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
Listeros,
This discovery of a tool strengthens the
veracity of the earlier claim.
No it doesn't.
Nature has the story here;http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091105/full/news.2009.1058.html
"then I saw the serrated edge."
I wonder if the edge of this scaper looks anything like the edge of
the
Old Crow flesher?
http://yukon.taiga.net/vuntutrda/archaeol/fig_1b.htm-Hide quoted text -
Thanks Jack.
I have the original paper. Here is how it all went down.
The original 14C date was conventional at (no spam) about 26,000 years. All
during
the time of the debate, some critics questioned whether or not it was
man
made. At that time they assumed the date was correct because that
was all anyone had. Then AMS dating came along and a AMS redate said
it was only about 1,800 years old. At that point it really wasn't
important
anymore if it were man made or not. It no longer was evidence for the
antiquity of man in the Americas.
I have a neighbor who makes custom knives. He uses some (legal)
mammoth
ivory for handles. If 5000 years from now an archaeologist were to 14C
test
his mammoth handle, we know it would read at least 17,000 years old.
Wow,
a 17 kya steel knife! Two things are known about Oregon cave use.
1) Native Americans sometimes dug in those caves and
2) more recent native peoples sometimes used older bone and teeth to
make
things, just as my neighbor does today.
Personally, I'm taking Meltzer's advice...first Jenkins has to show
how those
artifacts got into the cave and when and if the bone is really an
artifact. I haven't
seen a photo of this scraper yet, but I'm sure one will turn up on the
net soon.
Actually, I haven't seen a photo of the stemmed point fragment from
the Paisley
lower level either.
[/quote]
The Nature article was for the internet. The next print edition should
have something in it. |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:49 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 3:09 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 6, 2:24 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 6, 7:07 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
On Nov 5, 9:30 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:11 am, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
Listeros,
This discovery of a tool strengthens the
veracity of the earlier claim.
No it doesn't.
Nature has the story here;http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091105/full/news.2009.1058.html
"then I saw the serrated edge."
I wonder if the edge of this scaper looks anything like the edge of
the
Old Crow flesher?
http://yukon.taiga.net/vuntutrda/archaeol/fig_1b.htm-Hidequoted text -
Thanks Jack.
I have the original paper. Here is how it all went down.
The original 14C date was conventional at (no spam) about 26,000 years. All
during
the time of the debate, some critics questioned whether or not it was
man
made. At that time they assumed the date was correct because that
was all anyone had. Then AMS dating came along and a AMS redate said
it was only about 1,800 years old. At that point it really wasn't
important
anymore if it were man made or not. It no longer was evidence for the
antiquity of man in the Americas.
I have a neighbor who makes custom knives. He uses some (legal)
mammoth
ivory for handles. If 5000 years from now an archaeologist were to 14C
test
his mammoth handle, we know it would read at least 17,000 years old.
Wow,
a 17 kya steel knife! Two things are known about Oregon cave use.
1) Native Americans sometimes dug in those caves and
2) more recent native peoples sometimes used older bone and teeth to
make
things, just as my neighbor does today.
Personally, I'm taking Meltzer's advice...first Jenkins has to show
how those
artifacts got into the cave and when and if the bone is really an
artifact. I haven't
seen a photo of this scraper yet, but I'm sure one will turn up on the
net soon.
Actually, I haven't seen a photo of the stemmed point fragment from
the Paisley
lower level either.
The Nature article was for the internet. The next print edition should
have something in it.
[/quote]
You have to squint real hard and let some imagination roll but I think
that the bone mentioned is in the photograph. Use the citation .
Oregon Caves Yield Rare Pre-Clovis Artifact 14,230 Years Old
November 6, 2009
(ChattahBox)—A series of caves and rock shelters located in the Summer
Lake Basin north of Paisley in south-central Oregon, may hold evidence
of the earliest Native Americans living in North America that has ever
been discovered. An unassuming scraper-like tool fashioned from bone,
found in one of the Paisley Caves, has been definitively carbon-dated
as 14,230 years old, which is the oldest and only pre-Clovis artifact
ever found in the Americas.
This exciting discovery lays waste to a still predominant theory that
the earliest human inhabitants of North America, referred to as the
Clovis culture, arrived here 12,900 to 12,400 years ago, while
crossing the Bering Strait.
Scientists believe that pre-Clovis peoples migrated here south along
the North American coastlines. The Paisley Caves are located along the
Klamath River, near the Pacific Ocean, placing them along the possible
migration route of pre-Clovis Native Americans.
The recent excavation of the Paisley Caves was conducted by the
Northern Great Basin Field School, with the University of Oregon, lead
by archaeologist Dennis L. Jenkins. The head archaeologist presented
his team’s exciting finding last month in a lecture at the University
of Oregon. He explained that the simple bone tool was subjected to
studies of sediment and radiocarbon dating, which suggested it
belonged to a pre Clovis culture.
Jon Erlandson, an archaeologist at the University of Oregon said,
“They can’t yet rule out the Paisley Cave people weren’t Clovis.” But
none of the Clovis people’s distinct fluted spear and arrow points
were found in the cave.
The only other American archaeological site older than Clovis, is at
Monte Verde in Chile, which is about 13,900 years old.
Jenkins’ new finding lends further support to the theory that a pre-
Clovis culture once inhabited the Paisley Caves. Last year, his team
found coprolites, which are fossilized human excrement, that were
dated to 14,000 to 14,270 years old. A DNA analysis showed that the
coprolites were indeed human.
But experts questioned the age of the coprolites, suggesting that they
were younger than the sediments they were found in. Other
archaeologists questioned the pre-Clovis age of the coprolites,
because no artifacts were found to corroborate their age.
Now, with the definitive find of a bone artifact, dating to 14,230
years old, archaeologists are starting to take notice of the
importance of the Paisley Caves, as holding the key to the earliest
human inhabitants of North America.
“The dating of the bone tool, and the finding that the sediments
encasing it range from 11,930 to 14,480 years old might put these
questions to rest. You couldn’t ask for better dated stratigraphy,”
said Jenkins.
http://www.archaeologynews.org/story.asp?ID=521908&Title=Oregon%20Caves%20Yield%20Rare%20Pre-Clovis%20Artifact%2014230%20Years%20Old |
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| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 11:54 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 6, 3:09 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 6, 2:24 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 6, 7:07 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
On Nov 5, 9:30 pm, Lee Olsen <paleoc... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 5, 8:11 am, Mike R <michaelrugg... at (no spam) mac.com> wrote:
Listeros,
This discovery of a tool strengthens the
veracity of the earlier claim.
No it doesn't.
Nature has the story here;http://www.nature.com/news/2009/091105/full/news.2009.1058.html
"then I saw the serrated edge."
I wonder if the edge of this scaper looks anything like the edge of
the
Old Crow flesher?
http://yukon.taiga.net/vuntutrda/archaeol/fig_1b.htm-Hidequoted text -
Thanks Jack.
I have the original paper. Here is how it all went down.
The original 14C date was conventional at (no spam) about 26,000 years. All
during
the time of the debate, some critics questioned whether or not it was
man
made. At that time they assumed the date was correct because that
was all anyone had. Then AMS dating came along and a AMS redate said
it was only about 1,800 years old. At that point it really wasn't
important
anymore if it were man made or not. It no longer was evidence for the
antiquity of man in the Americas.
I have a neighbor who makes custom knives. He uses some (legal)
mammoth
ivory for handles. If 5000 years from now an archaeologist were to 14C
test
his mammoth handle, we know it would read at least 17,000 years old.
Wow,
a 17 kya steel knife! Two things are known about Oregon cave use.
1) Native Americans sometimes dug in those caves and
2) more recent native peoples sometimes used older bone and teeth to
make
things, just as my neighbor does today.
Personally, I'm taking Meltzer's advice...first Jenkins has to show
how those
artifacts got into the cave and when and if the bone is really an
artifact. I haven't
seen a photo of this scraper yet, but I'm sure one will turn up on the
net soon.
Actually, I haven't seen a photo of the stemmed point fragment from
the Paisley
lower level either.
The Nature article was for the internet. The next print edition should
have something in it.
[/quote]
If you squint real hard and use a lot of imagination I think I can see
the bone in the photograph.
Oregon Caves Yield Rare Pre-Clovis Artifact 14,230 Years Old
November 6, 2009
(ChattahBox)—A series of caves and rock shelters located in the Summer
Lake Basin north of Paisley in south-central Oregon, may hold evidence
of the earliest Native Americans living in North America that has ever
been discovered. An unassuming scraper-like tool fashioned from bone,
found in one of the Paisley Caves, has been definitively carbon-dated
as 14,230 years old, which is the oldest and only pre-Clovis artifact
ever found in the Americas.
This exciting discovery lays waste to a still predominant theory that
the earliest human inhabitants of North America, referred to as the
Clovis culture, arrived here 12,900 to 12,400 years ago, while
crossing the Bering Strait.
Scientists believe that pre-Clovis peoples migrated here south along
the North American coastlines. The Paisley Caves are located along the
Klamath River, near the Pacific Ocean, placing them along the possible
migration route of pre-Clovis Native Americans.
The recent excavation of the Paisley Caves was conducted by the
Northern Great Basin Field School, with the University of Oregon, lead
by archaeologist Dennis L. Jenkins. The head archaeologist presented
his team’s exciting finding last month in a lecture at the University
of Oregon. He explained that the simple bone tool was subjected to
studies of sediment and radiocarbon dating, which suggested it
belonged to a pre Clovis culture.
Jon Erlandson, an archaeologist at the University of Oregon said,
“They can’t yet rule out the Paisley Cave people weren’t Clovis.” But
none of the Clovis people’s distinct fluted spear and arrow points
were found in the cave.
The only other American archaeological site older than Clovis, is at
Monte Verde in Chile, which is about 13,900 years old.
Jenkins’ new finding lends further support to the theory that a pre-
Clovis culture once inhabited the Paisley Caves. Last year, his team
found coprolites, which are fossilized human excrement, that were
dated to 14,000 to 14,270 years old. A DNA analysis showed that the
coprolites were indeed human.
But experts questioned the age of the coprolites, suggesting that they
were younger than the sediments they were found in. Other
archaeologists questioned the pre-Clovis age of the coprolites,
because no artifacts were found to corroborate their age.
Now, with the definitive find of a bone artifact, dating to 14,230
years old, archaeologists are starting to take notice of the
importance of the Paisley Caves, as holding the key to the earliest
human inhabitants of North America.
“The dating of the bone tool, and the finding that the sediments
encasing it range from 11,930 to 14,480 years old might put these
questions to rest. You couldn’t ask for better dated stratigraphy,”
said Jenkins.
http://www.archaeologynews.org/story.asp?ID=521908&Title=Oregon%20Caves%20Yield%20Rare%20Pre-Clovis%20Artifact%2014230%20Years%20Old |
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