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| Paul Rubin... |
 Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 9:14 pm |
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Tom St Denis <tom at (no spam) iahu.ca> writes:
[quote]I'm not stupid, I realize there are places on earth where human rights
are not honoured. But in Canada and the States, as dramatic as people
like to be, the government really isn't out to get them.
[/quote]
Maybe not today, but what about in the year 2030 or 2040, if any of us
are still around then? Who can predict what can happen in a few
decades? We have the example of 1930's Europe to scare us. If the US
or Canadian government is replaced by a Taliban-like dictatorship in
20 years, do you want them to have a vault full of recordings of the
steamy and/or blasphemous conversations that you're having today?
[quote]So in the context I'd be more afraid of Skype tracking who you call
and when, then selling that to marketers or other random companies
to then use to target advertisements better and otherwise annoy
people.
[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skype#Service_in_People.27s_Republic_of_China
is instructive. |
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| Gordon Burditt... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:55 pm |
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[quote]It's like this H1N1 scare. In Canada you are more likely to be
MURDERED while waiting in line for the flu shot than to die of ANY
flu.
[/quote]
Do you have actual figures on that? I'm willing to believe that
(in Canada) you are more likely to be murdered than die of any flu.
I'm not so sure about being murdered while in line for the flu shot,
though. Do you have any actual figures on people-hours spent waiting
in line for flu shots? |
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| Tom St Denis... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:57 am |
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On Nov 4, 10:55 pm, gordonb.ig... at (no spam) burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) wrote:
[quote]It's like this H1N1 scare. In Canada you are more likely to be
MURDERED while waiting in line for the flu shot than to die of ANY
flu.
Do you have actual figures on that? I'm willing to believe that
(in Canada) you are more likely to be murdered than die of any flu.
I'm not so sure about being murdered while in line for the flu shot,
though. Do you have any actual figures on people-hours spent waiting
in line for flu shots?
[/quote]
Fair enough, but from the 2005 stats if you die between the ages of
18-65 80% of the time it's from a form of heart disease or cancer. I
forget the exact numbers but Murder was below accidentals and above
all forms of Flu.
My point though is more people will be murdered in Canada in 2009 than
will die of the flu, any flu. Yet the flu, specifically, H1N1 is this
big mean scary thing people are all worried about. But even worse
than that, more people will die from poor diet and lack of exercise
[die before they turn 66 that is] than the flu. And they'll gladly
scarf down a burger and fries while watching the W5 episode about
swine flu thinking "oh my god this is horrible!"
If people were really worried about the length and quality of their
lives they'd petition the government to spend the pandemic money on
gym memberships.
And this thread is no different. You're more likely to have quality
of life issues, if you live in Canada or the States because some
private interest is fucking over your privacy than the government.
Sure the Government might know that I'm friends with someone in the
Green Party, but my local telco knows more about my phone habits, and
sadly likely sells them to the highest bidder. Like it's amazing that
I get telemarketers calling my new cell phone despite not being listed
[formally] anywhere... hmmm...
Tom |
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| Unruh... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:07 am |
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"robertwessel2 at (no spam) yahoo.com" <robertwessel2 at (no spam) yahoo.com> writes:
[quote]On Nov 4, 9:55=A0pm, gordonb.ig... at (no spam) burditt.org (Gordon Burditt) wrote:
It's like this H1N1 scare. =A0In Canada you are more likely to be
MURDERED while waiting in line for the flu shot than to die of ANY
flu. =A0
Do you have actual figures on that? =A0I'm willing to believe that
(in Canada) you are more likely to be murdered than die of any flu.
I'm not so sure about being murdered while in line for the flu shot,
though. =A0Do you have any actual figures on people-hours spent waiting
in line for flu shots?
[/quote]
[quote]Hmmm... two minutes of searching turned up a murder rate for Canada
of 1.9/100,000, which, given a population of about 33.8 million,
yields about 640 murders per year. Normal flu deaths per year in
Canada (from the Canadian Medical Association Journal) appear to be
estimated to be 700-2500 annually (this contrasts with earlier
estimates of 500-1500).
So basically in a =93good=94 flu years you have a roughly equal chance of
dying from the flu or being murdered. Of course for most individuals
the odds of being murdered are going to be far less than the nominal
1.9/100,000 rate. On the flip side, some sizable segments of the
population (basically the not-young, not-old, not sick group) are also
much less likely to die of the flu than others, but I think murder
rates are likely more concentrated.
[/quote]
The problem with H1N1 is precisely that those dying are in that not-young,
not-old, not-sick group. (well not sick except for flu).
[quote]And as to the standing in line issue=85 If you wait nine hours for a
flu shot, you=92d have approximately a 1000-fold lesser chance of being
murdered (while in line) than of annually dying of the flu.
[/quote]
Since most murders do not occur in daylight with loads of people around, since the
number of flu deaths in canada from H1N1 is about half a century so far, and since
noone has been murdered in flu lineup AFAIK, his statement was rediculous.
Ie, murders are not some random affair, with that 1.9/million being randomly
selected. |
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| Tom St Denis... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:50 am |
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On Nov 5, 8:29 am, Thomas Pornin <por... at (no spam) bolet.org> wrote:
[quote]According to Tom St Denis <t... at (no spam) iahu.ca>:
My point though is more people will be murdered in Canada in 2009 than
will die of the flu, any flu.
Note though that this quite depends on the location. Flu rates go higher
in big towns (more contagion) but murder rates also, and much more so.
For instance, in Montreal (about 3.5 million people, including
surrounding towns), there are about 100 murders per year. In Québec (the
city, about 700 thousands people with the surrounding towns), that's
close to 1 (one) murder per year: the ratio with regards to population
is 20 times lower ! So that in Québec, flu (any flu) will kill many more
people than murder.
[/quote]
The thing about the numbers that others posted is my stats are based
on people in the bracket 18-65. Of course flus [well typical flus]
kill people in young/old categories. But supposing you survive to
adulthood and are less than 65, then I'd fear more tangible things
than the flu.
[quote]Of course, fast food and car driving claim an awful lot more lives
than any flu. But media-powered fears are not rational, and have never
been. This is not a very novel discovery.
[/quote]
My point was to show the similarities where uneducated and otherwise
ignorant people draw conclusions of what they should worry about and
more often than naught they're wrong.
I'd still be for the Canadian government handing out gym
memberships ...  Those places are beaucoup expensive.
Tom |
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| Noob... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:38 am |
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Noob wrote:
[quote]Anonymous wrote:
I hope someone in this NG will take a look at the Skype encryption
because I have my doubts about it.
Sorry to disappoint, but Skype only intends to open source the GUI.
http://share.skype.com/sites/linux/2009/11/skype_open_source.html
"""
Yes, there's an open source version of Linux client being developed.
This will be a part of larger offering, but we can't tell you much more
about that right now. Having an open source UI will help us get adopted
in the "multicultural" land of Linux distributions, as well as on other
platforms and will speed up further development. We will update you once
more details are available.
"""
[/quote]
cf. also the LWN discussion
http://lwn.net/Articles/359925/ |
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| Tom St Denis... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 7:39 am |
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On Nov 5, 11:53 am, Unruh <unruh-s... at (no spam) physics.ubc.ca> wrote:
[quote]And the thing about H1N1 is that it is not a typical flu. It kills across all
ages. In fact old people are less likely to die from it because they have some
resistance. If it were a typical flu there would not be the hype about it..
[/quote]
Well I've still not seen really widespread deaths from people that
weren't likely to die of the normal flu. Most of them so far have
been "Marie died yesterday of H1N1, she ... blah blah, fine print at
end of article, was suffering from COPD, pneumonia and a bullet wound
to her left side of her head...." There's almost always a pre-
existing condition it seems.
The one case I know of a teen dying he played a weekend of hockey
while sick.
I'm sure if I ran out and played 2 games while suffering from
pneumonia I'd probably keel over too...
[quote]I agree with that. Just that you have chosen a bad example.
Note also that murder hits certain segments of the population far harder than
others. (In Vancouver these days, and I believe in Montreal, gang membership
drives up the probability hugely).
Flu lineup patrons are pretty low in the murder probability list.
[/quote]
Perhaps, but I'd still rather a murder vaccine than an H1N1 one.
[quote]I'd still be for the Canadian government handing out gym
memberships ... Those places are beaucoup expensive.
$45/month at my local community centre? That's expensive?
[/quote]
Well balancing that against my daily $4 coffee, and $12 meal at BK for
supper ... it's expensive My point [which doesn't seem to be
getting through] is that if the goal is
"the preservation and prolongation of quality of life for adults in
Canada"
Then we're best spending our money on gyms then overhyped flu
vaccines. More Canadians will die this year alone of heart failure
than of the flu over the last decade.
Tom |
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| Thomas Pornin... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:29 am |
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According to Tom St Denis <tom at (no spam) iahu.ca>:
[quote]My point though is more people will be murdered in Canada in 2009 than
will die of the flu, any flu.
[/quote]
Note though that this quite depends on the location. Flu rates go higher
in big towns (more contagion) but murder rates also, and much more so.
For instance, in Montreal (about 3.5 million people, including
surrounding towns), there are about 100 murders per year. In Québec (the
city, about 700 thousands people with the surrounding towns), that's
close to 1 (one) murder per year: the ratio with regards to population
is 20 times lower ! So that in Québec, flu (any flu) will kill many more
people than murder.
Of course, fast food and car driving claim an awful lot more lives
than any flu. But media-powered fears are not rational, and have never
been. This is not a very novel discovery.
--Thomas Pornin |
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| Tom St Denis... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 8:49 am |
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On Nov 5, 1:21 pm, Paul Rubin <http://phr... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
[quote]Tom St Denis <t... at (no spam) iahu.ca> writes:
"the preservation and prolongation of quality of life for adults in
Canada"
Then we're best spending our money on gyms then overhyped flu
vaccines. More Canadians will die this year alone of heart failure
than of the flu over the last decade.
Flu is pretty nasty even if you don't die from it. A widespread
epidemic will cause a heck of a lot of misery and disruption
independently of the number of fatalities.
[/quote]
And apparently death and out-of-shape people is a-ok?
Think about this, how many slow or ineffective or sick days are a
direct result of poor diet and lack of exercise? I'd say there are
more hours of productivity lost due to people getting any other
illness [bacterial infection], or being tired and low on energy
through eating poorly, not exercising, smoking ,etc. Flu takes you
out of commission for a few days, being a slob takes longer.
Tom |
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| Tom St Denis... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:19 am |
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On Nov 5, 2:08 pm, Paul Rubin <http://phr... at (no spam) NOSPAM.invalid> wrote:
[quote]Tom St Denis <t... at (no spam) iahu.ca> writes:
Think about this, how many slow or ineffective or sick days are a
direct result of poor diet and lack of exercise? I'd say there are
more hours of productivity lost due to people getting any other
illness [bacterial infection], or being tired and low on energy
through eating poorly, not exercising, smoking ,etc. Flu takes you
out of commission for a few days, being a slob takes longer.
I think the main issue (besides fatalities) with H1N1 is not the
personal unpleasantness if you become ill, but the massive disruption
resulting from everyone in a region being ill at the same time. Think
of just about all business and transportation shutting down, etc.
Even the communications systems (phones, internet) may not be able to
operate.
Also, flu is really much more intensely miserable and dangerous than
the typical cold, if that's what you're thinking. If you catch a
cold, you spend a day or two at home feeling lousy and blowing your
nose a lot. Flu (the couple of times I've had it) involves almost
nonstop vomiting, diarrhea, fever, etc. A lot of people will require
medical attention that may be quite hard to come by due to overload
and transportation problems.
[/quote]
Well I'm not saying nobody get vaccinated, nor should people go to
work while sick, etc, and so on. I think WHO should track this, and
the various CDC analogues around the world study it. I think it's
noteworthy, I think it's something to educate the people about. I
don't think it's the single greatest threat to our society's
workforce.
What I am saying is if your state of mind is "I really am not a big
fan of dying before I'm 65 and I want to have a good quality of life"
than worrying about H1N1, at the expense and eclipse of say your
cardio vascular health is not well founded. If everyone who was
running around like chicken little about H1N1 was also fit and diets
properly I'd shut my trap. But you know for a fact that, especially
in Canada/states we're not a set of really fit people. For every
decent weight person there is probably 10 or 20 or more unfit people.
Perspective people. Perspective.
Where are the news stories about staying fit? Heck we just had our
annual "excuse to eat handfuls of chocolate" day and I haven't seen a
single mainstream story about whether we should encourage kids [and
parents] to not really participate, or say exercise more at least, or
anything. People sit on their couches, eating low nutrition high
calorie crap while they shit their pants about possibly maybe getting
sick for a week from *a* flu. |
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| Unruh... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:53 am |
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Guest
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Tom St Denis <tom at (no spam) iahu.ca> writes:
[quote]On Nov 5, 8:29=A0am, Thomas Pornin <por... at (no spam) bolet.org> wrote:
According to Tom St Denis =A0<t... at (no spam) iahu.ca>:
My point though is more people will be murdered in Canada in 2009 than
will die of the flu, any flu.
Note though that this quite depends on the location. Flu rates go higher
in big towns (more contagion) but murder rates also, and much more so.
For instance, in Montreal (about 3.5 million people, including
surrounding towns), there are about 100 murders per year. In Qu=E9bec (th=
e
city, about 700 thousands people with the surrounding towns), that's
close to 1 (one) murder per year: the ratio with regards to population
is 20 times lower ! So that in Qu=E9bec, flu (any flu) will kill many mor=
e
people than murder.
The thing about the numbers that others posted is my stats are based
on people in the bracket 18-65. Of course flus [well typical flus]
kill people in young/old categories. But supposing you survive to
adulthood and are less than 65, then I'd fear more tangible things
than the flu.
[/quote]
And the thing about H1N1 is that it is not a typical flu. It kills across all
ages. In fact old people are less likely to die from it because they have some
resistance. If it were a typical flu there would not be the hype about it.
[quote]Of course, fast food and car driving claim an awful lot more lives
than any flu. But media-powered fears are not rational, and have never
been. This is not a very novel discovery.
My point was to show the similarities where uneducated and otherwise
ignorant people draw conclusions of what they should worry about and
more often than naught they're wrong.
[/quote]
I agree with that. Just that you have chosen a bad example.
Note also that murder hits certain segments of the population far harder than
others. (In Vancouver these days, and I believe in Montreal, gang membership
drives up the probability hugely).
Flu lineup patrons are pretty low in the murder probability list.
[quote]I'd still be for the Canadian government handing out gym
memberships ... Those places are beaucoup expensive.
[/quote]
$45/month at my local community centre? That's expensive?
>Tom |
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| Paul Rubin... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:21 pm |
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Guest
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Tom St Denis <tom at (no spam) iahu.ca> writes:
[quote]"the preservation and prolongation of quality of life for adults in
Canada"
Then we're best spending our money on gyms then overhyped flu
vaccines. More Canadians will die this year alone of heart failure
than of the flu over the last decade.
[/quote]
Flu is pretty nasty even if you don't die from it. A widespread
epidemic will cause a heck of a lot of misery and disruption
independently of the number of fatalities. |
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| Paul Rubin... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 2:08 pm |
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Guest
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Tom St Denis <tom at (no spam) iahu.ca> writes:
[quote]Think about this, how many slow or ineffective or sick days are a
direct result of poor diet and lack of exercise? I'd say there are
more hours of productivity lost due to people getting any other
illness [bacterial infection], or being tired and low on energy
through eating poorly, not exercising, smoking ,etc. Flu takes you
out of commission for a few days, being a slob takes longer.
[/quote]
I think the main issue (besides fatalities) with H1N1 is not the
personal unpleasantness if you become ill, but the massive disruption
resulting from everyone in a region being ill at the same time. Think
of just about all business and transportation shutting down, etc.
Even the communications systems (phones, internet) may not be able to
operate.
Also, flu is really much more intensely miserable and dangerous than
the typical cold, if that's what you're thinking. If you catch a
cold, you spend a day or two at home feeling lousy and blowing your
nose a lot. Flu (the couple of times I've had it) involves almost
nonstop vomiting, diarrhea, fever, etc. A lot of people will require
medical attention that may be quite hard to come by due to overload
and transportation problems. |
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