 |
|
| Science Forum Index » Military - Naval Forum » Defense of Wake Island... |
|
Page 3 of 4 Goto page Previous 1, 2, 3, 4 Next |
|
| Author |
Message |
| Jack Linthicum... |
 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 11:21 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 1, 4:06 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 3:47 pm, "Keith Willshaw"
ke... at (no spam) nospam.kwillshaw.demon.co.uk> wrote:
"Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b0681ce2-44cf-481c-b8fc-3cac2d8bbc9b at (no spam) s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com....
On Nov 1, 1:45 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 5:41 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Look at a globe, Wake is a reasonable distance from Midway and a logn
way from the nearest Japanese land base.
Wake could have had supplies delivered by seaplane. Was there any
consideration of this?
No for the simple reason that the idea is nuts. Given the quantity of
supplies a realistic garrison would require air supply with the
flying boats available would be completely impractical. Wake is
over 1000 miles fromMidway. The only aircraft available with
adequate range were the PBY's. Each could carry around 4000 lb
of supplies.
How many do you think you'dneed to supply 600 men with food
fuel and ammunition ?
Why no subs supporting Wake?
The USN was stretched all across the Pacific from the approaches
to Australia to Hawaii. The submarines were better used killing
Japanese ships.
.
Keith
Also they could look but not land anywhere. Check out Map 25.1
[/quote]
The Marines version
Marines in World War II
Historical Monograph
The Defense of Wake
by Lieutenant Colonel R.D. Heinl, Jr., USMC
Historical Section, Division of Public Information
Headquarters, U.S. Marine Corps
1947
http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USMC/USMC-M-Wake.html |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| David E. Powell... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 2:55 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Oct 31, 6:32 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"Frogwatch" <dboh... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:09a4f2e1-1b69-4f84-9faf-b94b1e01a793 at (no spam) a31g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...
On Oct 31, 7:02 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
On Oct 31, 6:48 pm, "Ray O'Hara" <raymond-oh... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote in message
news:104f9e6b-2fd2-4913-aa48-2348c7a80f66 at (no spam) a21g2000yqc.googlegroups.com....
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
Give them full AA and AS batteries with enough ammo. This would
include radar (least likely) as well as range and height finders which
had been left at Pearl.
Enough time to build revetments for the Wildcats, dig in the Avgas
stores, spare parts for the planes, AA, and AS guns. Enough qualified
mechanics to work on the planes. A few more Wildcats would've been
nice. Maybe a few SBDs.
The problem was, Wake wasn't defensible as long as the Japanese
wanted it. It might've held out longer, but the Japanese never made a
major effort...which they would've done if necessary because they
couldn't afford to leave Wake as a working US base.
============================================================================
Wake was very isolated and exposed. the USN could have taken it back
anytime
but didn't see it as a threat or worth the effort.
the Japanese got no benefit from it that was worth the losses they
incurred
getting it.-
They didn't think they were going to suffer the losses. That's why
they sent the second team at first. The Japanese didn't think they
could afford to leave a US base at Wake. It was exposed, but would've
been a real thorn in their side if PBYs and B-17s were based there.
Taking Wake removed that threat and gave them a land base for recon.
Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the Japanese,
let's play the game of "What tiny thing might have enabled em to do
even better although they eventually lose. So, would it have been
sights on the rest of the AA, a bit of barbed wire, a case of mines?
What little lthing, not a bunch of things might have enabled em to
sink another ship or down a few more planes, etc?
Would sights on the AA have resulted in fewer Marine plane losses in
the Japs 1st bomber attack? The Marines lost 8 out of 12 planes in
that one attack.
====================================================================
the garrison was over 400. where did you get your figure?
[/quote]
Better early warning, a key difference many times at Guadalcanal.
Better early warning and air numbers I guess. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Keith Willshaw... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:47 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Frogwatch" <dbohara at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:b0681ce2-44cf-481c-b8fc-3cac2d8bbc9b at (no spam) s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
On Nov 1, 1:45 pm, Jeff Dougherty <dougherty.jeff... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 5:41 pm, "deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com" <deemsb... at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
Look at a globe, Wake is a reasonable distance from Midway and a logn
way from the nearest Japanese land base.
Wake could have had supplies delivered by seaplane. Was there any
consideration of this?
[/quote]
No for the simple reason that the idea is nuts. Given the quantity of
supplies a realistic garrison would require air supply with the
flying boats available would be completely impractical. Wake is
over 1000 miles fromMidway. The only aircraft available with
adequate range were the PBY's. Each could carry around 4000 lb
of supplies.
How many do you think you'dneed to supply 600 men with food
fuel and ammunition ?
[quote]Why no subs supporting Wake?
[/quote]
The USN was stretched all across the Pacific from the approaches
to Australia to Hawaii. The submarines were better used killing
Japanese ships.
..
Keith |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| ... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:49 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Jack Linthicum <jacklinthicum at (no spam) earthlink.net> writes:
[quote]On Oct 31, 5:57 pm, Arved Sandstrom <dces... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
Jack Linthicum wrote:
On Oct 31, 4:20 pm, Frogwatch <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote:
Lets engage in a bit of alternative history. If you could change
something small that would cause the defenders of Wake Island to hold
out for a longer time, what would it be? Let's be reasonable about
this and make it plausible.
If the defenders had any idea of the way they'd be treated after
surrender, would they have been able to hold out for a few more days?
If so, what would this have accomplished in terms of using up Japanese
resources?
I once read that they had only one good AA gun sight. if they had
more , would the toll of Japanese planes have been higher? What if
they had a couple more AA guns?
What if they had a gotten a shipment of several miles of barbed wire
to put on beaches?
What if they had a few cases of anti-personnel mines?
Would a couple more aircraft helped?
Once they surrendered they did not blow up the airstrip, what if thye
had blown it, what effect would this have had?
The US tried to relieve Wake but turned back after getting a report of
two IJN carriers and 2 bb in the area. Could supplies have been
dropped via seaplane? What supplies would have been most helpful?
Why no US subs in the area?
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought he was
about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
There is a forum for that at soc.history.what-if
I'd venture to say that SMN is pretty appropriate for alternative
*naval* history. What Frog is doing is wargaming, and last I checked
that's part of military science.
AHS
Okay, let's start with "how long is long" when holding out longer is
the object. Do you spend the resources you would eventually use for
the Doolittle Raid on saving Wake? How do you supply them? The use of
a fairly strong task force was stopped by the possibility of major
Japanese forces in the area. Twelve days later the Japanese came back
in force on December 23. (By the way I am getting my data from the
same place Frog did, Wiki). What do you buy for those twelves days?
What would you buy if you stayed there? I read Wake as right next to
the Marshalls, Kwajaelin, etc.
[/quote]
At some point supplies & munitions are going to run out, and if reserves
don't come the only thing to do is surrender or leave. Viz the KGL at
Waterloo, or the FFL at Bir Hakeim. The troops on Wake couldn't leave,
sadly. Probably no amount of hypothetical supplies could have saved
them, the airgroups from 2 carriers would eventually wear them down and
wipe out the munitions/supplies and weapons, if not in the first air
strike then in the 2nd or third. They certainly gave a heroic account of
themselves. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Dan... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:56 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Jeff Dougherty wrote:
[quote]Fletcher certainly had his faults as a commander- he was probably a
bit more cautious than he should have been in some instances, and his
decision to withdraw the carriers during the initial Guadalcanal
landings was, I think, a mistake.
[/quote]
And yet that move was the reason the Japanese thought they could hold
Guadalcanal with the penny packets of resources and men they delivered.
It was hell on our guys, but perhaps not so much a hell as if the
Japanese had reinforced with the entire Port Moresby force, as was the
original plan when the U.S. invasion started.
Dan |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:12 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 2, 10:02 am, "a425couple" <a425cou... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message...
(I'll here bite on just this one part/aspect of your question.)
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought
he was about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Because it was Japanese policy to never allow any
captured POW to be liberated or fall back under
Allied control.
In location after location, when it became clear the Allies
were going to take an area that held POWs, they were
killed. This was done by many ways, machine gunning,
beheading, burning, or forced marches without food.
Of the over 150,000 white/allied POWs, about one third
were killed before the end of the war, and their freedom.
More chilling, "If the war had lasted another year, there would
not have been a POW left alive" (* below)
IMHO that is one important argument for the use of the
A-bombs. They so suddenly shocked the Japanese
Emperor that he broke the death spiral they were in.
* If you are interested in a very informative book, and a
truly good read, I'd suggest:
"Prisoners of the Japanese, POWs of World War II
in the Pacific" by Gavan Daws (and it was available
quite inexpensively the last time I looked).
And yes, the book does deal specificly with several
captured on Wake.
[/quote]
Amazon has it for $2.50 to $20
Abebooks starts at $1 and goes on four pages |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| David E. Powell... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:56 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
Looking at Wake, my plan for enhanced early warning would mean
either:
A: Coast watchers, a key to air warning and survival on Guadalcanal,
not really an option gievn Wake's isolation.
B: Long range radar, which would be in danger of capture alomng with
operators.
C: Radar-equipped early warning aircraft, which were not around in
late 1941-early 1942.
So it is a tough call whether to do it, though Wake did have the most
advanced 3 inch AA gun directors and equipment of the day installed,
as well as state of the art F4F Wildcats. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 5:59 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 2, 10:51 am, "a425couple" <a425cou... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
[quote]"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message...
- "a425couple" <a425cou... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
-> "Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message...
(I'll here bite on just this one part/aspect of your question.)
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought
he was about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Because it was Japanese policy to never allow any
captured POW to be liberated or fall back under
Allied control.
In location after location, when it became clear the Allies
were going to take an area that held POWs, they were
killed. This was done by many ways, machine gunning,
beheading, burning, or forced marches without food.
Of the over 150,000 white/allied POWs, about one third
were killed before the end of the war, and their freedom.
More chilling, "If the war had lasted another year, there would
not have been a POW left alive" (* below)
IMHO that is one important argument for the use of the
A-bombs. They so suddenly shocked the Japanese
Emperor that he broke the death spiral they were in.
* If you are interested in a very informative book, and a
truly good read, I'd suggest:
"Prisoners of the Japanese, POWs of World War II
in the Pacific" by Gavan Daws (and it was available
quite inexpensively the last time I looked).
And yes, the book does deal specificly with several
captured on Wake.
-Amazon has it for $2.50 to $20
-Abebooks starts at $1 and goes on four pages
Thanks Jack. So for $5 to $6.50 delivered to your door!
(That sure beats what I paid, but I'm happy I got it.)
Funny, I've been having increasing problems with
"google books" lately, sometimes I can't even find
one existing - that I have in my hand!
And "google groups" is also getting often 'blind'.
[/quote]
Google has some problems with servers, I suspect they have searched
out the cheapest without determining quality of service.
and
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/31/technology/internet/31google.html?scp=6&sq=google&st=cse |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:01 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 2, 10:56 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3... at (no spam) msn.com>
wrote:
[quote]Looking at Wake, my plan for enhanced early warning would mean
either:
A: Coast watchers, a key to air warning and survival on Guadalcanal,
not really an option gievn Wake's isolation.
B: Long range radar, which would be in danger of capture alomng with
operators.
C: Radar-equipped early warning aircraft, which were not around in
late 1941-early 1942.
So it is a tough call whether to do it, though Wake did have the most
advanced 3 inch AA gun directors and equipment of the day installed,
as well as state of the art F4F Wildcats.
[/quote]
Kind of useless if the IJN can lay a couple of cruisers off shore and
lob shells in. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| a425couple... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:02 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message...
(I'll here bite on just this one part/aspect of your question.)
[quote]Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought
he was about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
[/quote]
Because it was Japanese policy to never allow any
captured POW to be liberated or fall back under
Allied control.
In location after location, when it became clear the Allies
were going to take an area that held POWs, they were
killed. This was done by many ways, machine gunning,
beheading, burning, or forced marches without food.
Of the over 150,000 white/allied POWs, about one third
were killed before the end of the war, and their freedom.
More chilling, "If the war had lasted another year, there would
not have been a POW left alive" (* below)
IMHO that is one important argument for the use of the
A-bombs. They so suddenly shocked the Japanese
Emperor that he broke the death spiral they were in.
* If you are interested in a very informative book, and a
truly good read, I'd suggest:
"Prisoners of the Japanese, POWs of World War II
in the Pacific" by Gavan Daws (and it was available
quite inexpensively the last time I looked).
And yes, the book does deal specificly with several
captured on Wake. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| a425couple... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:18 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Frogwatch" <ohara5.0 at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message...
[quote]Overall, the Marines did an amazing job sinking 5 japanese ships and
killing over 900 Japanese to their toll of about 57 deaths and 157
captured.
[/quote]
(and further downstream you say)
[quote]Being extremely impressed at how much 157 Marines did to the
Japanese, let's play the game of "What tiny thing ---
[/quote]
I think somewhere, you got the numbers in error.
At Wake there were:
449 USMC personnel (consisting of:
---399 infantry of the 1st Marine Defense Battalion (understrength), and
---55 det. VMF-211, (does not quite add up right, ohh well!)
68 US Navy
5 U.S. Army personnel, and
1,100 + civillian construction contractors.
All except those killed, were captured. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| a425couple... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:51 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
"Jack Linthicum" <jacklinthicum at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote in message...
- "a425couple" <a425cou... at (no spam) hotmail.com> wrote:
-> "Frogwatch" <ohara... at (no spam) mindspring.com> wrote in message...
[quote]
(I'll here bite on just this one part/aspect of your question.)
Why did the jap commander kill the 98 POWs when he thought
he was about to be overrun in 1943, this makes no sense.
Because it was Japanese policy to never allow any
captured POW to be liberated or fall back under
Allied control.
In location after location, when it became clear the Allies
were going to take an area that held POWs, they were
killed. This was done by many ways, machine gunning,
beheading, burning, or forced marches without food.
Of the over 150,000 white/allied POWs, about one third
were killed before the end of the war, and their freedom.
More chilling, "If the war had lasted another year, there would
not have been a POW left alive" (* below)
IMHO that is one important argument for the use of the
A-bombs. They so suddenly shocked the Japanese
Emperor that he broke the death spiral they were in.
* If you are interested in a very informative book, and a
truly good read, I'd suggest:
"Prisoners of the Japanese, POWs of World War II
in the Pacific" by Gavan Daws (and it was available
quite inexpensively the last time I looked).
And yes, the book does deal specificly with several
captured on Wake.
[/quote]
-Amazon has it for $2.50 to $20
-Abebooks starts at $1 and goes on four pages
Thanks Jack. So for $5 to $6.50 delivered to your door!
(That sure beats what I paid, but I'm happy I got it.)
Funny, I've been having increasing problems with
"google books" lately, sometimes I can't even find
one existing - that I have in my hand!
And "google groups" is also getting often 'blind'. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| David E. Powell... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:25 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 2, 11:01 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net>
wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 10:56 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3... at (no spam) msn.com
wrote:
Looking at Wake, my plan for enhanced early warning would mean
either:
A: Coast watchers, a key to air warning and survival on Guadalcanal,
not really an option gievn Wake's isolation.
B: Long range radar, which would be in danger of capture alomng with
operators.
C: Radar-equipped early warning aircraft, which were not around in
late 1941-early 1942.
So it is a tough call whether to do it, though Wake did have the most
advanced 3 inch AA gun directors and equipment of the day installed,
as well as state of the art F4F Wildcats.
Kind of useless if the IJN can lay a couple of cruisers off shore and
lob shells in.
[/quote]
Wake's air guys did quite a bit of damage with what they had.
I should also have mentioned that along with early warning, stronger
air presence was one of my original "what if" factors.
The initial IJN attack force at Wake was kind of strapped for ships,
th Japanese were dividing their forces up a lot with all the other
attacks they were making. It owuld have been a while before Tokyo
Express style forces would have been available. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| Jack Linthicum... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 1:33 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 2, 6:25 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3... at (no spam) msn.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 11:01 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net
wrote:
On Nov 2, 10:56 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3... at (no spam) msn.com
wrote:
Looking at Wake, my plan for enhanced early warning would mean
either:
A: Coast watchers, a key to air warning and survival on Guadalcanal,
not really an option gievn Wake's isolation.
B: Long range radar, which would be in danger of capture alomng with
operators.
C: Radar-equipped early warning aircraft, which were not around in
late 1941-early 1942.
So it is a tough call whether to do it, though Wake did have the most
advanced 3 inch AA gun directors and equipment of the day installed,
as well as state of the art F4F Wildcats.
Kind of useless if the IJN can lay a couple of cruisers off shore and
lob shells in.
Wake's air guys did quite a bit of damage with what they had.
I should also have mentioned that along with early warning, stronger
air presence was one of my original "what if" factors.
The initial IJN attack force at Wake was kind of strapped for ships,
th Japanese were dividing their forces up a lot with all the other
attacks they were making. It owuld have been a while before Tokyo
Express style forces would have been available.
[/quote]
If you say so. The last Wildcat died on December 22. The Japanese lost
a lot of Bettys but still were able to bomb Wake. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
| David E. Powell... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:03 pm |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 2, 6:33 pm, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 6:25 pm, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3... at (no spam) msn.com> wrote:
On Nov 2, 11:01 am, Jack Linthicum <jacklinthi... at (no spam) earthlink.net
wrote:
On Nov 2, 10:56 am, "David E. Powell" <David_Powell3... at (no spam) msn.com
wrote:
Looking at Wake, my plan for enhanced early warning would mean
either:
A: Coast watchers, a key to air warning and survival on Guadalcanal,
not really an option gievn Wake's isolation.
B: Long range radar, which would be in danger of capture alomng with
operators.
C: Radar-equipped early warning aircraft, which were not around in
late 1941-early 1942.
So it is a tough call whether to do it, though Wake did have the most
advanced 3 inch AA gun directors and equipment of the day installed,
as well as state of the art F4F Wildcats.
Kind of useless if the IJN can lay a couple of cruisers off shore and
lob shells in.
Wake's air guys did quite a bit of damage with what they had.
I should also have mentioned that along with early warning, stronger
air presence was one of my original "what if" factors.
The initial IJN attack force at Wake was kind of strapped for ships,
th Japanese were dividing their forces up a lot with all the other
attacks they were making. It owuld have been a while before Tokyo
Express style forces would have been available.
If you say so. The last Wildcat died on December 22. The Japanese lost
a lot of Bettys but still were able to bomb Wake.
[/quote]
Being caught on the ground hurt, though. So early warning would help,
much like Henderson field when everything would try to get up.
Of course another problem would be that there wouldn't be certain
tactics that were developed later by the US that used the Wildcat's
strengths in fighing the Japanese, especially the Zero fighters. |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Mon Dec 14, 2009 5:11 pm
|
|