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| Science Forum Index » Electronics - Design Forum » PCB Encapsulants to Annoy Copy Pirates... |
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| John Larkin... |
 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:56 pm |
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:49:49 -0800, D from BC
<myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 16:57:55 -0800, John Larkin
jjlarkin at (no spam) highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com> wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:16:28 -0800, D from BC
myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..
So far I've found:
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '
Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?
ex: Very very hot melt? Low melting point glass?
D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design
The disadvantages of potting generally far outweigh the likelihood
that someone will copy your design. And if they're determined, they
will anyhow.
John
Potting will make me feel good? 
[/quote]
Not after you've actually done it a few times.
[quote]
This might be ironic.
It's possible the first people to tear into the epoxy potting will not
be Asian copy cats but instead US patent owners who suspect their
patent is being used without permission.
[/quote]
Is it?
John |
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| D from BC... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 9:05 pm |
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:09:27 -0500, Hammy <spam at (no spam) spam.com> wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 13:16:28 -0800, D from BC
myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote:
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..
So far I've found:
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '
Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?
ex: Very very hot melt? Low melting point glass?
D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design
Patent it. Thats what everybody else does.
What did you invent a time machine ?
[/quote]
A possibly unique smps controller. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:30 pm |
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:37:39 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com>
wrote:
[quote]
I might try a solvent to smudge the ID on the IC.
[/quote]
Many these days are laser burned.
The Dremel grind will not hurt them. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:37 pm |
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:37:39 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com>
wrote:
[quote]
In addition to adhesion, the potting has to resist solvent/chemical
baths that pirates may use.
[/quote]
The stuff I am thinking of is a tough rubbery thing that can stop a
knife point or a bullet, much less most solvents that you worry about
that would melt polycarbonate, but not this. It is used by NASA. It is
the ONLY encapsulant they have approved for HV space applications. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:43 pm |
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 18:54:34 -0800 (PST), mpm <mpmillard at (no spam) aol.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 7:10 pm, Archimedes' Lever <OneBigLe... at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org
wrote:
On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:28:03 -0000, "TTman" <someone... at (no spam) ntlworld.com
wrote:
"D from BC" <myrealaddr... at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:dddue5hrjdthg692kk7s5kgcti5kjkvfkr at (no spam) 4ax.com...
I'd like to pot my smt pcb with the nastiest sh*t possible to make it
hell for copy cats..
So far I've found:
http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/832ht.html
'Extremely difficult to remove - grants incredible technology
protection '
Besides epoxy.. Are there alternatives?
Araldaite 2014- grey epoxy. I use it, very, very good stuff !
Take a Dremel with a round rubber drum sanding attachment of about 1/2"
diameter.
Grind off all the ID marks on the chips.
Then, pot it in "Stycast".
No, epoxy is what you need. Most anything else can be removed one way
or another too easily.
There are high adhesion polyurethane potting compounds, but they are
far more costly.
An alternative to fully potting it, would be to do the chip grind thing,
and then 'paint' the epoxy over those chip-top locations. You could also
'paint' over the traces until the build up is high enough to hide them,
but they can be traced via continuity tests usually.
You could also build a small trace array that you selectively cut and
bridge to complete uniquely "keyed" circuits ala Dongle Key technology.
You could make each circuit unique, yet the same, yet harder to copy.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Could you also throw 'em a curveball by re-printing bogus ID's on the
chips?
Of course. Why not? You would have to make the removed ID surface[/quote]
appear acceptable or authentic before applying the new info.
[quote]Something within the limits of credulity...
I'm not suggesting you paint "555" on the top of a TMS340 or anything
like that...
[/quote]
Anything different would at least cause lost time, and time is
everything to copy cats.
[quote]
If you chose your part numbers carefully, you might send them on a
wild goose chase... :)
[/quote]
Well, a good diagnostician could do a pretty good job of determining
what something "must be" by basic examination and probing.
That would require it be visible, or accessible to probing. |
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| D from BC... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:22 am |
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:30:23 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:37:39 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com
wrote:
I might try a solvent to smudge the ID on the IC.
Many these days are laser burned.
The Dremel grind will not hurt them.
[/quote]
True..
I do try to dodge making plastic dust when I can.
I don't like cleaning.
I might even try melting the number with an old soldering tip.
Dremel is probably the low cancer solution.
Solvents make fumes and same goes for plastic melting.
D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design |
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| D from BC... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:26 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:37:14 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
<OneBigLever at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:37:39 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com
wrote:
In addition to adhesion, the potting has to resist solvent/chemical
baths that pirates may use.
The stuff I am thinking of is a tough rubbery thing that can stop a
knife point or a bullet, much less most solvents that you worry about
that would melt polycarbonate, but not this. It is used by NASA. It is
the ONLY encapsulant they have approved for HV space applications.
[/quote]
Nasa stuff can be pricey.
Maybe I can get an Asian pirated copy of that rubbery stuff. |
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| D from BC... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:44 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:51:05 -0800 (PST), Tim Williams
<tmoranwms at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 8:35 pm, MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net> wrote:
Make it all "firmware" in a FPGA and use a coin cell battery to keep
the FPGA always powered on. If they open it up poof goes the code.
Planned obsolescence, too. Good idea!
D: what about x-rays? Do they make lead oxide-filled epoxy? It's
pretty trivial to x-ray through potting otherwise. ;-)
Tim
[/quote]
Example:
http://www.vidisco.com/images/full/app-ndt-Electronic-PCB-100.jpg
I can see the disc capacitors,resistors,jumpers and all traces.
But what an xray won't show chip functions and discrete part values.
imo ..encapsulation makes scope probing difficult. |
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| D from BC... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 1:58 am |
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:54:59 -0800, "Joel Koltner"
<zapwireDASHgroups at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]"D from BC" <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com> wrote in message
news:8b2ve5tmtarghq32lpn3d10mkonetfati6 at (no spam) 4ax.com...
It's possible the first people to tear into the epoxy potting will not
be Asian copy cats but instead US patent owners who suspect their
patent is being used without permission.
Hmm... I wonder if you can be made to reveal your design
schematics/software/etc. if a patent holder is able to convince a judge that
there's a very good change you're infringing on their patent, yet you have
made it effectively impossible for an outside party to determine as much?
[/quote]
It's:
Privacy by Encapsulation vs Design Disclosure by Patent Owner.
Who's the winner going to be? |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:03 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:51:05 -0800 (PST), Tim Williams
<tmoranwms at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 8:35 pm, MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net> wrote:
Make it all "firmware" in a FPGA and use a coin cell battery to keep
the FPGA always powered on. If they open it up poof goes the code.
Planned obsolescence, too. Good idea!
D: what about x-rays? Do they make lead oxide-filled epoxy? It's
pretty trivial to x-ray through potting otherwise. ;-)
[/quote]
An x-ray does not mean a good analysis would result.
Use Aluminum traces and they are invisible to X-rays. Ha!
Have fun soldering or basically getting a good electrical bond on all
the nodes though.
You could can it in PCB media with 100% ground plane and ad a nice
thick layer of LEADED solder on it, OR little sheets of lead soldered
onto it. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:10 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:22:51 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:30:23 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:37:39 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com
wrote:
I might try a solvent to smudge the ID on the IC.
Many these days are laser burned.
The Dremel grind will not hurt them.
True..
I do try to dodge making plastic dust when I can.
I don't like cleaning.
[/quote]
The high temp polymer dust is not the best stuff to be breathing
either. I would not recommend doing any high speed power sanding on
basically anything inside your house.
[quote]
I might even try melting the number with an old soldering tip.
[/quote]
It is not that kind of plastic. Use an engraving tool to gouge stripes
into it and that will obscure the numbering.
[quote]Dremel is probably the low cancer solution.
[/quote]
If it is laser etched, it is one of the only solutions. You have to
move or remove media to remove etched info.
[quote]Solvents make fumes and same goes for plastic melting.
[/quote]
There are not too many solvents that will attack the plastics most ICs
are packaged in. The print used is pretty hardy stuff too. Usually an
epoxy "ink".
[quote]
D from BC
Amateur smps designer
British Columbia, Canada
Posted to sci.electronics.design[/quote] |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:12 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:26:49 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:37:14 -0800, Archimedes' Lever
OneBigLever at (no spam) InfiniteSeries.Org> wrote:
On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 17:37:39 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com
wrote:
In addition to adhesion, the potting has to resist solvent/chemical
baths that pirates may use.
The stuff I am thinking of is a tough rubbery thing that can stop a
knife point or a bullet, much less most solvents that you worry about
that would melt polycarbonate, but not this. It is used by NASA. It is
the ONLY encapsulant they have approved for HV space applications.
Nasa stuff can be pricey.
Maybe I can get an Asian pirated copy of that rubbery stuff.
[/quote]
It is called "Conap" and there are no substitutes, as far as NASA is
concerned, and it is VERY expensive, but I am sure there are plenty of
good 'turgid' other brand polyurethane encapsulants out there. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:13 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:44:33 -0800, D from BC <myrealaddress at (no spam) comic.com>
wrote:
[quote]On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 20:51:05 -0800 (PST), Tim Williams
tmoranwms at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 2, 8:35 pm, MooseFET <kensm... at (no spam) rahul.net> wrote:
Make it all "firmware" in a FPGA and use a coin cell battery to keep
the FPGA always powered on. If they open it up poof goes the code.
Planned obsolescence, too. Good idea!
D: what about x-rays? Do they make lead oxide-filled epoxy? It's
pretty trivial to x-ray through potting otherwise. ;-)
Tim
Example:
http://www.vidisco.com/images/full/app-ndt-Electronic-PCB-100.jpg
I can see the disc capacitors,resistors,jumpers and all traces.
But what an xray won't show chip functions and discrete part values.
imo ..encapsulation makes scope probing difficult.
[/quote]
Looks like an old floppy controller card. |
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| Archimedes' Lever... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:15 am |
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Guest
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 22:03:41 -0800 (PST), Greegor <greegor47 at (no spam) gmail.com>
wrote:
[quote]How do you like getting products made that way?
[/quote]
Unless YOU QUOTE who you are responding to, nobody will know who or
what the fuck you are talking about.
Not everyone reads or looks at there news the same way.
Relying on threaded views is retarded.
QUOTE what you are referring to. D'oh! |
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| TTman... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:54 am |
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Guest
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[quote]
Neato..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Araldite
'Highmark Manufacturing uses Araldite in the manufacture of advanced
ballistic protection body armor'
While on wiki. I came across this tidbit...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epoxy_resin
'Vinegar is an effective and safe solvent to clean up tools, brushes,
skin, and most surfaces contaminated with epoxy resin or hardener.'
Huh..didn't know that..
[/quote]
It says vinegar will remove resin 'that is starting to harden'.... |
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