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| leonard78sp at (no spam) gmail.com... |
 Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 7:10 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 1, 11:35 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
[quote]In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae – also known as Sermeq Kujalleq – moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet – this is by far the
world’s biggest island – and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae – and nearly all
of Greenland’s glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world – is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
“The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.”
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norway’s Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
“There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.”
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt – sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earth’s climate system – points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4°C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the world’s species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
..................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the sun’s heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop)..
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the world’s social and political
stability – the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
It’s just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps" but first rightards deny AGW or at least
treat it with a great deal of levity and when presented with
irrefutable evidence it exists they then suggest it's a good thing.
[/quote]
•• Where is your "irrefutable evidence"
[quote]They don't seem to understand that once they've blown their
credibility that it exists then they have weakened their credibility
that it's a good thing.
[/quote]
•• The "irrefutable evidence" please.
–– ––
In real science the burden of proof is always
on the proposer, never on the sceptics. So far
neither IPCC nor anyone else has provided one
iota of valid data for global warming nor have
they provided data that climate change is being
effected by commerce and industry, and not by
natural phenomena. |
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| Monkey Clumps... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 8:13 am |
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Guest
|
On Nov 1, 11:35am, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
[quote]In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae also known as Sermeq Kujalleq moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet this is by far the
worlds biggest island and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae and nearly all
of Greenlands glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norways Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earths climate system points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the worlds species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
..................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the suns heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop)..
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the worlds social and political
stability the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
Its just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps" but first rightards deny AGW or at least
treat it with a great deal of levity and when presented with
irrefutable evidence it exists they then suggest it's a good thing.
[/quote]
Which is entirely consistent. If the greentards want us all to spend
untold amounts of money attempting to cut carbon emissions, at the
minimum they need to demonstrate 4 things.
1. Global warming is actually happening.
2. The warming is due to human CO2 emissions and not natural cycles.
3. Warming can be controlled by cutting carbon emissions and this is
a more sensible approach than adjusting to climate change.
4. We have the technology to significantly cut carbon emissions in an
economically and politically viable fashion.
Greenland getting warmer only helps your position on item 1. Good
luck with the others.
[quote]
They don't seem to understand that once they've blown their
credibility that it exists then they have weakened their credibility
that it's a good thing.
[/quote]
People are becoming less and less concerned with global warming. They
know it's overhyped nonsense. Despite the lip service politicians
might pay to the seriousness of AGW, nobody is going to pony the real
money and sacrifice that will be needed to even *attempt* significant
CO2 cuts. Cap and trade in Europe has been a farce. Expect the same
elsewhere. |
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| Bret Cahill... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 4:42 pm |
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Guest
|
[quote]In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae also known as Sermeq Kujalleq moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet this is by far the
worlds biggest island and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae and nearly all
of Greenlands glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norways Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earths climate system points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the worlds species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
..................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the suns heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop).
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the worlds social and political
stability the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
Its just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps" but first rightards deny AGW or at least
treat it with a great deal of levity and when presented with
irrefutable evidence it exists they then suggest it's a good thing.
Which is entirely consistent. If the greentards want us all to spend
untold amounts of money attempting to cut carbon emissions, at the
minimum they need to demonstrate 4 things.
1. Global warming is actually happening.
[/quote]
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
[quote]2. The warming is due to human CO2 emissions and not natural cycles.
[/quote]
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
[quote]3. Warming can be controlled by cutting carbon emissions
[/quote]
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
[quote]and this is
a more sensible approach than adjusting to climate change.
[/quote]
If we must adjust, why not adjust in a way that won't kill off large
populations of humans as well as other species.
[quote]4. We have the technology to significantly cut carbon emissions in an
economically and politically viable fashion.
[/quote]
The technology can be developed with enough funding.
If we must get off oil anyway, why not do it _before_ we give $100
trillion to the Iranians?
[quote]Greenland getting warmer only helps your position on item 1.
[/quote]
Rightards who once disputed that now think they have credibility on
the other issues.
.. . .
[quote]People are becoming less and less concerned with global warming.
[/quote]
The GOP tax cut recession - financial meltdown was quite a
distraction.
An even bigger distraction will be peak oil.
Bret Cahill |
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| silky... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 5:19 pm |
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Guest
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*****************The technology can be developed with enough
funding***********************
Thats the bottom line isn't it, you want to get you hand as deep
into my pocket as possible.
If we throw enough money at the problem it will go away!
See that's where we differ first I think we need to make sure there is
a problem. You guys can r5ant and rave all you
want but until you can show me that GW is indeed caused by us and that
it is fixable and everyone is going to get
on board to fix it....forgtgetaboput it! I can live with a few more
degrees of warmth and a few more inches of sea level increase. |
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| Mitchell Holman... |
| Posted: Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:41 pm |
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Guest
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"leonard78sp at (no spam) gmail.com" <leonard78sp at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote in
news:9d4da93b-b3e7-491f-b416-7549278451ea at (no spam) 37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
[quote]
In real science the burden of proof is always on
the proposer, never on the sceptics.
[/quote]
So back up your claim.
"As many glaciers that are shrinking an equal number are growing"
"Leonard78sp", unproven claim, 1/6/09 |
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| John M.... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:31 am |
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Guest
|
On Nov 1, 10:35am, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
[quote]In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae also known as Sermeq Kujalleq moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet this is by far the
worlds biggest island and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae and nearly all
of Greenlands glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norways Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earths climate system points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the worlds species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
..................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the suns heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop)..
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the worlds social and political
stability the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
Its just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps"
[/quote]
I think we might deduce from the quality of his/her posts, that this
is his/her real name.The intellect of the parents is a determinant in
the intellect of the child, after all.
[quote]but first rightards deny AGW or at least
treat it with a great deal of levity and when presented with
irrefutable evidence it exists they then suggest it's a good thing.
They don't seem to understand that once they've blown their
credibility that it exists then they have weakened their credibility
that it's a good thing.
Bret Cahill[/quote] |
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| John M.... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:10 am |
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Guest
|
On Nov 1, 6:36am, eunome... at (no spam) yahoo.com.au wrote:
[quote]Incidently if an iceberg melts it doesn't raise sea levels one single
millionth of a meter. That's called archidmedes principal. The ice
contracts as it melts and so the level can't change.
[/quote]
Idiot. Learn some science before posting to science oriented NGs.
When the iceberg left the land and entered the ocean, it displaced an
amount of water equal to its own weight. Simple experiment will show
this to be the case. Put an ice-cube in a brim-full glass of water. Or
melt the cube and add that water to the glass. In each case the water
that spills over is the same quantity. But in fact water always spills
over.
Adding water to a brim-full ocean means water will spill over - onto
the land, of course. The amount of water sitting atop Greenland could
raise sea-level by several metres - much more than ocean expansion due
to a warming planet. At current rates this could happen before 3000
C.E. - a mere eye-blink in geological time. The main hope is that
winter snowfall in the Arctic increases the snowpack on Greenland to
compensate for the increasing ice loss.
[quote]The worst, absolute worst that can happen is 18cm to 54cm and would
require the oceans to warm, something which ISN"T happening according
to the ARGO probes.
[/quote]
The warming required to show a significant change in temperature
depends on the precision and distribution of, and duration of
measurement by, the probes. Insufficient time has elapsed for this
project to produce a significant result one way or the other. |
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| Bret Cahill... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:35 am |
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Guest
|
[quote]In real science the burden of proof is always on
the proposer, never on the sceptics.
So back up your claim.
"As many glaciers that are shrinking an equal number are growing"
"Leonard78sp", unproven claim, 1/6/09
[/quote]
All Leonard does is dodge issus and undermine AGW deniers with his
disreputable behaviour.
It may even be deliberate.
Bret Cahill |
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| Bret Cahill... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:44 am |
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Guest
|
[quote]*****************The technology can be developed with enough
funding***********************
Thats the bottom line isn't it, you want to get you hand as deep
into my pocket as possible.
[/quote]
You think the technology will develop by itself?
Since technology develops by itself why not do the same with the
defense budget?
[quote]If we throw enough money at the problem it will go away!
[/quote]
That's why you need to become an active citizen and make sure
implausible expensive solutions are voted out.
On the other hand you can always get out of paying taxes by moving to
low tax paradise Somalia.
_Forbes_ once published an _excellent_ article on "taxpatriation." I
highly recommend it.
[quote]See that's where we differ first I think we need to make sure there is
a problem.
[/quote]
Even taking the concensus scientific opinion about AGW as true the
more immediate problem is peak oil.
China and India have high growth rates in what is supposed to be the
biggest global economic downturn since the Great Depression. 2.5
billion Asians will soon be driving SUVs and the price of fuel will
soar to $10 - $20 gallon.
This isn't decades away but several years away.
Bret Cahill |
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| Monkey Clumps... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:55 am |
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Guest
|
On Nov 2, 7:31am, "John M." <jmorgan1234... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 10:35am, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae also known as Sermeq Kujalleq moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet this is by far the
worlds biggest island and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae and nearly all
of Greenlands glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norways Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earths climate system points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the worlds species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
..................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the suns heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop).
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the worlds social and political
stability the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
Its just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps"
I think we might deduce from the quality of his/her posts, that this
is his/her real name.
[/quote]
Based on the quality of your posts you might want to change your
handle to "Fucktard" |
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| Back to top |
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| Monkey Clumps... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:58 am |
|
|
|
Guest
|
On Nov 1, 9:42pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
[quote]In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae also known as Sermeq Kujalleq moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet this is by far the
worlds biggest island and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae and nearly all
of Greenlands glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norways Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earths climate system points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the worlds species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
...................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the suns heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop).
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the worlds social and political
stability the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
Its just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps" but first rightards deny AGW or at least
treat it with a great deal of levity and when presented with
irrefutable evidence it exists they then suggest it's a good thing.
Which is entirely consistent. If the greentards want us all to spend
untold amounts of money attempting to cut carbon emissions, at the
minimum they need to demonstrate 4 things.
1. Global warming is actually happening.
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
2. The warming is due to human CO2 emissions and not natural cycles.
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
3. Warming can be controlled by cutting carbon emissions
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
and this is
a more sensible approach than adjusting to climate change.
If we must adjust, why not adjust in a way that won't kill off large
populations of humans as well as other species.
4. We have the technology to significantly cut carbon emissions in an
economically and politically viable fashion.
The technology can be developed with enough funding.
If we must get off oil anyway, why not do it _before_ we give $100
trillion to the Iranians?
Greenland getting warmer only helps your position on item 1.
Rightards who once disputed that now think they have credibility on
the other issues.
. . .
People are becoming less and less concerned with global warming.
The GOP tax cut recession - financial meltdown was quite a
distraction.
An even bigger distraction will be peak oil.
Bret Cahill
[/quote]
The 1.4 trillion dollar annual deficit might end up being a
distraction too. |
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| Back to top |
|
|
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| Bret Cahill... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:47 pm |
|
|
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Guest
|
On Nov 2, 8:58am, Monkey Clumps <spacebrai... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 9:42pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae also known as Sermeq Kujalleq moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet this is by far the
worlds biggest island and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae and nearly all
of Greenlands glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norways Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earths climate system points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the worlds species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
...................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed..
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the suns heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop).
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the worlds social and political
stability the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
Its just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps" but first rightards deny AGW or at least
treat it with a great deal of levity and when presented with
irrefutable evidence it exists they then suggest it's a good thing.
Which is entirely consistent. If the greentards want us all to spend
untold amounts of money attempting to cut carbon emissions, at the
minimum they need to demonstrate 4 things.
1. Global warming is actually happening.
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
2. The warming is due to human CO2 emissions and not natural cycles.
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
3. Warming can be controlled by cutting carbon emissions
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
and this is
a more sensible approach than adjusting to climate change.
If we must adjust, why not adjust in a way that won't kill off large
populations of humans as well as other species.
4. We have the technology to significantly cut carbon emissions in an
economically and politically viable fashion.
The technology can be developed with enough funding.
If we must get off oil anyway, why not do it _before_ we give $100
trillion to the Iranians?
Greenland getting warmer only helps your position on item 1.
Rightards who once disputed that now think they have credibility on
the other issues.
. . .
People are becoming less and less concerned with global warming.
The GOP tax cut recession - financial meltdown was quite a
distraction.
An even bigger distraction will be peak oil.
Bret Cahill
The 1.4 trillion dollar annual deficit might end up being a
distraction too.
[/quote]
Chump change compared to the $100 trillion that will go over seas for
oil.
We could save $80 trillion over the next few decades by getting off
oil.
Bret Cahill |
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| Peter Muehlbauer... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 12:50 pm |
|
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|
Guest
|
"John M." <jmorgan1234533 at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 6:36am, eunome... at (no spam) yahoo.com.au wrote:
Incidently if an iceberg melts it doesn't raise sea levels one single
millionth of a meter. That's called archidmedes principal. The ice
contracts as it melts and so the level can't change.
Idiot. Learn some science before posting to science oriented NGs.
When the iceberg left the land and entered the ocean, it displaced an
amount of water equal to its own weight. Simple experiment will show
this to be the case. Put an ice-cube in a brim-full glass of water. Or
melt the cube and add that water to the glass. In each case the water
that spills over is the same quantity. But in fact water always spills
over.
Adding water to a brim-full ocean means water will spill over - onto
the land, of course.
[/quote]
And where did the water initially come from, eh?
Do the same experiment, but make an ice cube from the water in the glass
first, and then put the ice cube back into the glass. |
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| I M at (no spam) good guy... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:08 am |
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On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:47:44 -0800 (PST), Bret Cahill
<BretCahill at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 8:58 am, Monkey Clumps <spacebrai... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
On Nov 1, 9:42 pm, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
...............................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae – also known as Sermeq Kujalleq – moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet – this is by far the
world’s biggest island – and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae – and nearly all
of Greenland’s glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world – is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
“The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.”
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norway’s Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
“There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.”
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt – sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earth’s climate system – points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4°C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the world’s species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
.................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
...........................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
..................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the sun’s heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop).
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the world’s social and political
stability – the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
It’s just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps" but first rightards deny AGW or at least
treat it with a great deal of levity and when presented with
irrefutable evidence it exists they then suggest it's a good thing.
Which is entirely consistent. If the greentards want us all to spend
untold amounts of money attempting to cut carbon emissions, at the
minimum they need to demonstrate 4 things.
1. Global warming is actually happening.
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
2. The warming is due to human CO2 emissions and not natural cycles.
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
3. Warming can be controlled by cutting carbon emissions
Already proven beyong any doubt. Only shills, creationists and other
wackadoodles dispute that.
and this is
a more sensible approach than adjusting to climate change.
If we must adjust, why not adjust in a way that won't kill off large
populations of humans as well as other species.
4. We have the technology to significantly cut carbon emissions in an
economically and politically viable fashion.
The technology can be developed with enough funding.
If we must get off oil anyway, why not do it _before_ we give $100
trillion to the Iranians?
Greenland getting warmer only helps your position on item 1.
Rightards who once disputed that now think they have credibility on
the other issues.
. . .
People are becoming less and less concerned with global warming.
The GOP tax cut recession - financial meltdown was quite a
distraction.
An even bigger distraction will be peak oil.
Bret Cahill
The 1.4 trillion dollar annual deficit might end up being a
distraction too.
Chump change compared to the $100 trillion that will go over seas for
oil.
We could save $80 trillion over the next few decades by getting off
oil.
Bret Cahill
[/quote]
You have no comprehension of what a Trillion is
(one million - million dollars), there will not be that much
money available to buy oil, total US exports are about
one Trillion per year, 20 million barrels a day is about
one Billion US dollars (one thousand million), which
means the total cost of all oil, domestic and import
is about 365 Billion, barely a third of a Trillion per
year.
If the government borrows even one Trillion
in the next year it will suck one tenth of what
lubricates commerce and trade out of the economy.
Peak oil will be evident when there are lines
at the gas pumps.
Projections are way too speculative, 18 months
ago the aircraft manufacturers were expecting more
increases in sales, Airbus expected to sell a lot more
A380s, now it seems certain the A380 will never be
profitable overall.
Moderation must replace the extremism, in all
aspects of projections.
Gossip is more fearful than fact. |
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| JohnM... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:27 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 2, 10:55am, Monkey Clumps <spacebrai... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 7:31am, "John M." <jmorgan1234... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
On Nov 1, 10:35am, Bret Cahill <BretCah... at (no spam) peoplepc.com> wrote:
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
From The Financial Times, 10/30/09:http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/91635aac-c207-11de-be3a-00144feab49a.html
Greenland is warming up
By Fiona Harvey
................................................................................................................
Every year, 35 billion tonnes of ice break free of the Greenland ice
sheet here.
Only the mammoth glaciers of Antarctica can compare.
The Isbrae also known as Sermeq Kujalleq moves at 40m a day.
For glaciers, this is pretty quick.
Glaciers have always made their way to the sea.
Snow falls on the vast Greenland ice sheet this is by far the
worlds biggest island and the weight pushes out the ice at the
edges.
But the remarkable thing about the Jakobshavn Isbrae and nearly all
of Greenlands glaciers, and most of the glaciers in the world is
how fast those outward waves are flowing now.
In 2002, when researchers measured the Jakobshavn Isbrae, which drains
6.5 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet, it was moving only half as
quickly as it is today, and pouring only half the present volume of
ice into the fjord.
The earliest known maps of this glacier date from the 1850s, but
observations of it have intensified since the 1950s.
They track the marked acceleration of the ice over recent decades, and
show its speed increasing dramatically in the past few years.
The Hellheim glacier, draining 4 per cent of the Greenland ice sheet,
tells a similar story.
Its speed increased from 8km a year in 2000 to 11km a year in 2005,
and has since accelerated.
The reason the glaciers are speeding up is simple:
Greenland is getting warmer.
Jacqueline McGlade, director of the European Environment Agency, says:
The amount of ice that is being lost is far more than we thought.
Greenland is warming faster than the computer models predicted, and
that is a worry.
The Arctic has warmed at three times the rate of the rest of the world
in the past 100 years, and temperatures continue to rise.
Ola Johannessen, chief of Norways Nansen Environmental and Remote
Sensing Centre, has worked on ice for more than 30 years.
He has never seen anything like the current situation.
There is no doubt that what we are seeing is the result of global
warming. The glaciers are moving faster. Ice is being lost from the
Greenland ice sheet, and that will raise sea levels.
In the past two decades, the evidence for global warming has piled so
high it is no longer disputed by mainstream scientists.
Much of this evidence has come from Greenland, as have the long
climate records that have allowed scientists to predict the future
progress of global warming.
.....................................................................................................................
The tale the ice cores tell is full of foreboding.
Climate changes of the past have not been slow, gradual increases in
temperature.
Rather, they have been abrupt sudden and steep warmings and
coolings, sometimes over a matter of decades.
This has led researchers to suggest that certain feedback loops, or
tipping points, exist in the earths climate system points at which
the warming or cooling becomes self-reinforcing and much more rapid.
Some feedback effects are already at work in Greenland.
Stand on top of a glacier, far from where the bergs calve with loud
cracks, and you hear a strange background murmur, a ceaseless
whispering that appears to have no source.
This is the sound of meltwater rushing down through fissures in the
ice.
When it reaches the bottom, the water lubricates the flow of the ice
over the rocks beneath, speeding the glaciers on their way.
The more meltwater, the more lubrication and the faster the ice moves.
Other tipping points might include the rapid disappearance of the
Amazon rainforest, which could be caused by drought.
If that happened, all the carbon the forests absorb would be released,
and global warming would accelerate.
If temperatures rose more than 4C above pre-industrial levels,
catastrophe would ensue, according to the Intergovernmental Panel on
Climate Change.
More than one-third of the worlds species would disappear; hundreds
of millions of people would face famine; floods and storms would whip
rich and poor countries alike.
..................................................................................................................................
Kyoto was greeted as a triumph in 1997 when it was signed, but
scarcely was the ink dry than the whole project collapsed.
It became clear the US Congress would never ratify it.
............................................................................................................................
When George W. Bush took office, Kyoto looked to be on the scrapheap
of history.
...................................................................................................................
Things have changed since Bush left office.
Now no country wishes to be left out and all profess eagerness for a
deal.
.......................................................................................................................
The real threat of climate change is not that the ice will melt
(though when it does, we are in trouble because the departure of
reflective ice leaves dark sea that absorbs more of the suns heat,
increasing the rate of global warming in another feedback loop).
The real disruptions of climate change will be felt far from here:
in sub-Saharan Africa, where the heat will become unbearable;
in south-east Asia, where rising sea levels will claim more and more
land and typhoons will destroy towns and villages;
in southern Europe, where drought will render the land unsuitable for
agriculture.
The biggest threat of all is to the worlds social and political
stability the famines, droughts, floods and storms of a warming
world could cause prolonged conflict, mass migration on a scale we
shudder to imagine, and a counter-reaction to that migration from the
lucky northern countries.
Its just that Greenland, and the rest of the Arctic, are where we see
the first and clearest signs of rapidly increasing temperatures and
their effects on the natural world.
________________________________________________________
Harry
If it warms enough maybe we will get to see why Greenland was named
Greenland.
Too late by years, Mr Clumps.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1001/p01s02-wogn.html?page=1
Wow, they can grow potatoes now. Will the horrors of global warming
ever cease? Let's spend trillions of dollars to stop this horrible
disaster.
It doesn't alter the fact that you implicitly posted mis-information.
Not that you can expect a serious response from anyone posting under a
handle like "Monkey Clumps"
I think we might deduce from the quality of his/her posts, that this
is his/her real name.
Based on the quality of your posts you might want to change your
handle to "Fucktard"
[/quote]
No. Like you Mr. Clumps, I'm happy to post under my real name. |
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