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| Panu... |
 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:37 am |
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On Oct 31, 9:18 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Oct 31, 6:13 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
Indeed. That's why I suggested "trying." But admitting that one has
never read anything in the field on which one expatiates, simply
because one is of the same nationality as two great practitioners in
that field, stretches credulity if it is intended to be taken
seriously.
My jokes are only complete when I get your reply
that is always so damn serious - you are trying
to be drier than an Englishman, and you succeed,
which is the real joke for me. I made the same
joke before, about inhaling the air de Saussure
breathed, and traipsing along the ways Pokorny
walked, but you didn't notice. Now you did, and
wrote a rewarding reply, thank you.
[/quote]
Dear Franz, please give me your address. I'd like to send you a copy
of my book. |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:45 am |
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On Nov 1, 1:30 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 5:15 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Oh, I see, that's how it works. Super!
In that case, I don't ever need to read anything written
by Pokorny, because his name sounds Czech and
all he ever knew should be in my genes too.
Is Pokorny a Czech name?
[/quote]
There you go again. Pokorný with an acute accent over the y is indeed
a plausible Czech name, and it is also an adjective signifying a
certain commendable quality typical of true scientists and scholars, a
quality of which, alas, you are totally lacking.
Please do learn a Slavic language, Franz. Any of them would open you
great vistas of which you never even dreamed before, |
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| Panu... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 4:46 am |
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On Nov 2, 1:15 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 3:36 pm, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
How do you know that there isn't _even more_ crucial information on
the pages you _don't_ look at?
People who know me are wondering at how much
and how many different things I read, but if you tell
me I don't read much I have the grace to do you
the favor of playing the illiterate ... Goethe called
reading a highly demanding art. I am good at reading,
having read so much and so many different things
in my life.
[/quote]
You haven't even read Russian literature, you savage. |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:52 pm |
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Panu wrote:
[quote]On Nov 1, 1:30 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 1, 5:15 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Oh, I see, that's how it works. Super!
In that case, I don't ever need to read anything written
by Pokorny, because his name sounds Czech and
all he ever knew should be in my genes too.
Is Pokorny a Czech name?
There you go again. Pokorný with an acute accent over the y is indeed
a plausible Czech name, and it is also an adjective signifying a
certain commendable quality typical of true scientists and scholars, a
quality of which, alas, you are totally lacking.
Please do learn a Slavic language, Franz. Any of them would open you
great vistas of which you never even dreamed before,
[/quote]
Well Franz, his name could have originated in Poland, Bohemia,
or one of many other Slavic countries.
All I know for fact is that he was a German nationalist with some
Jewish ancestry born in Prague.... Place your bet now....
pjk |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 2:30 pm |
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Panu pravi:
[quote]On Nov 1, 1:30 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 1, 5:15 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Oh, I see, that's how it works. Super!
In that case, I don't ever need to read anything written
by Pokorny, because his name sounds Czech and
all he ever knew should be in my genes too.
Is Pokorny a Czech name?
There you go again. Pokorný with an acute accent over the y is indeed
a plausible Czech name, and it is also an adjective signifying a
certain commendable quality typical of true scientists and scholars, a
quality of which, alas, you are totally lacking.
Please do learn a Slavic language,
[/quote]
Depending on the particular Slavic language. In Slovene "pokorni" is
masc. plur. of adjective "pokoren" meaning "obedient" or "docile". Many
scientists are such, I agree, but I wouldn't call them "true" scientists. |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:31 pm |
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Nikolaj wrote:
[quote]Panu pravi:
On Nov 1, 1:30 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 1, 5:15 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Oh, I see, that's how it works. Super!
In that case, I don't ever need to read anything written
by Pokorny, because his name sounds Czech and
all he ever knew should be in my genes too.
Is Pokorny a Czech name?
There you go again. Pokorný with an acute accent over the y is indeed
a plausible Czech name, and it is also an adjective signifying a
certain commendable quality typical of true scientists and scholars, a
quality of which, alas, you are totally lacking.
Please do learn a Slavic language,
Depending on the particular Slavic language. In Slovene "pokorni" is
masc. plur. of adjective "pokoren" meaning "obedient" or "docile". Many
scientists are such, I agree, but I wouldn't call them "true" scientists.
[/quote]
Okay, I see how that possibly happens. It's obviously related to
the same adjective, except in Slovene, I guess, the -ni implies
a passive version (i.e. "humbled").
Slovene "pokoren" has a Cz equivalent "pokoren" and the
various genders of the adjective would be "pokorený/á/é".
My question is, am I right? Would you classify the Slovene
"pokorni" as passive form of another adjective, and if you
would, what does that look like?
pjk |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:36 pm |
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PaulJK wrote:
[quote]Nikolaj wrote:
Panu pravi:
On Nov 1, 1:30 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 1, 5:15 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Oh, I see, that's how it works. Super!
In that case, I don't ever need to read anything written
by Pokorny, because his name sounds Czech and
all he ever knew should be in my genes too.
Is Pokorny a Czech name?
There you go again. PokornĂ˝ with an acute accent over the y is indeed
a plausible Czech name, and it is also an adjective signifying a
certain commendable quality typical of true scientists and scholars, a
quality of which, alas, you are totally lacking.
Please do learn a Slavic language,
Depending on the particular Slavic language. In Slovene "pokorni" is
masc. plur. of adjective "pokoren" meaning "obedient" or "docile". Many
scientists are such, I agree, but I wouldn't call them "true" scientists.
[/quote]
Whoops, I am reposting this in UTF8 to preserve hacheks (Ĺ™):
[quote]Okay, I see how that possibly happens. It's obviously related to
the same adjective, except in Slovene, I guess, the -ni implies
a passive version (i.e. "humbled").
Slovene "pokoren" has a Cz equivalent "pokořen" and the
various genders of the adjective would be "pokořený/á/é".
My question is, am I right? Would you classify the Slovene
"pokorni" as passive form of another adjective, and if you
would, what does that look like?
pjk[/quote] |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 12:53 pm |
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PaulJK pravi:
[quote]Nikolaj wrote:
Panu pravi:
On Nov 1, 1:30 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 1, 5:15 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Oh, I see, that's how it works. Super!
In that case, I don't ever need to read anything written
by Pokorny, because his name sounds Czech and
all he ever knew should be in my genes too.
Is Pokorny a Czech name?
There you go again. PokornĂ˝ with an acute accent over the y is indeed
a plausible Czech name, and it is also an adjective signifying a
certain commendable quality typical of true scientists and scholars, a
quality of which, alas, you are totally lacking.
Please do learn a Slavic language,
Depending on the particular Slavic language. In Slovene "pokorni" is
masc. plur. of adjective "pokoren" meaning "obedient" or "docile". Many
scientists are such, I agree, but I wouldn't call them "true" scientists.
Okay, I see how that possibly happens. It's obviously related to
the same adjective, except in Slovene, I guess, the -ni implies
a passive version (i.e. "humbled").
Slovene "pokoren" has a Cz equivalent "pokoren" and the
various genders of the adjective would be "pokorený/á/é".
My question is, am I right? Would you classify the Slovene
"pokorni" as passive form of another adjective, and if you
would, what does that look like?
[/quote]
No, I don't think so...
pokoren - obedient, docile
pokornost - submission, docility
pokorščina - obedience
pokora - penance
pokoriti - to subdue, to subjugate
(probably po-koriti, where "koriti" is an old word for "to scold" and
similar)
(similar in Serbian/Croatian)
"pokoren" and "-i" give "pokorni" and it would be used for plural for
masculine gender and also for marking definitvnes: mlad fant - mladi
fant (young boy), or "pokorni sluga" (obedient servant). (When adjective
is substantivized definitive version of adjective is used - "stari" (the
old one - dad), "mlada" (the young one - bride)...)
(In Slovene "humble" would be "skromen".) |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:02 pm |
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Nikolaj wrote:
[quote]PaulJK pravi:
Nikolaj wrote:
Panu pravi:
On Nov 1, 1:30 pm, Franz Gnaedinger <f... at (no spam) bluemail.ch> wrote:
On Nov 1, 5:15 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr... at (no spam) paradise.net.nz> wrote:
Oh, I see, that's how it works. Super!
In that case, I don't ever need to read anything written
by Pokorny, because his name sounds Czech and
all he ever knew should be in my genes too.
Is Pokorny a Czech name?
There you go again. PokornĂ˝ with an acute accent over the y is indeed
a plausible Czech name, and it is also an adjective signifying a
certain commendable quality typical of true scientists and scholars, a
quality of which, alas, you are totally lacking.
Please do learn a Slavic language,
Depending on the particular Slavic language. In Slovene "pokorni" is
masc. plur. of adjective "pokoren" meaning "obedient" or "docile". Many
scientists are such, I agree, but I wouldn't call them "true" scientists.
Okay, I see how that possibly happens. It's obviously related to
the same adjective, except in Slovene, I guess, the -ni implies
a passive version (i.e. "humbled").
Slovene "pokoren" has a Cz equivalent "pokoren" and the
various genders of the adjective would be "pokorený/á/é".
My question is, am I right? Would you classify the Slovene
"pokorni" as passive form of another adjective, and if you
would, what does that look like?
No, I don't think so...
pokoren - obedient, docile
pokornost - submission, docility
pokorščina - obedience
pokora - penance
pokoriti - to subdue, to subjugate
(probably po-koriti, where "koriti" is an old word for "to scold" and
similar)
[/quote]
I think you're right, I'd say it's definitely a compound po-koriti.
In the conteporary Czech it is a compound of the prefix "po-"
and verb "kořiti". In Czech this verb is still used, usually in
a reflexive form "kořiti se", therefore, its meaning is reversed,
"kořiti se" in front of someone means "to adore" or "to worship"
someone. In the non-reflexive form it is normally not used
without "po-" which also changes aspect to one-time perfective.
[quote](similar in Serbian/Croatian)
"pokoren" and "-i" give "pokorni" and it would be used for plural for
masculine gender and also for marking definitvnes: mlad fant - mladi
fant (young boy), or "pokorni sluga" (obedient servant). (When adjective
is substantivized definitive version of adjective is used - "stari" (the
old one - dad), "mlada" (the young one - bride)...)
(In Slovene "humble" would be "skromen".)
[/quote]
Okay, they are similar in Czech too.
Cz "skromnĂ˝" is usually translated as "modest" or "retiring"
and "pokornĂ˝" as "humble" or "meek".
And following the ever-increasing circles for fun. 
In the reverse direction and depending on context
"modest" can be translated as "skromnĂ˝", "mĂrnĂ˝" or "slušnĂ˝".
"retiring" can be translated as "nevtĂravĂ˝", "skromnĂ˝".
"humble" can be translated as "nĂzkĂ˝", "nepatrnĂ˝"; or "skromnĂ˝"; or "oddanĂ˝".
"meek" can be translated as "měkký", "jemný", or "pokorný".
And...so on, and so on. it's like a nuclear chain reaction.
Eventually it must stop expanding when you run out of new adjectives.
pjk |
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| Nikolaj... |
| Posted: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:11 pm |
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PaulJK pravi:
[quote]
I think you're right, I'd say it's definitely a compound po-koriti.
In the conteporary Czech it is a compound of the prefix "po-"
and verb "kořiti". In Czech this verb is still used, usually in
a reflexive form "kořiti se", therefore, its meaning is reversed,
"kořiti se" in front of someone means "to adore" or "to worship"
someone. In the non-reflexive form it is normally not used
without "po-" which also changes aspect to one-time perfective.
[/quote]
There is no reversal of meaning in Slovene, "koriti se" would mean "to
scold oneself".
[quote](In Slovene "humble" would be "skromen".)
Okay, they are similar in Czech too.
Cz "skromnĂ˝" is usually translated as "modest" or "retiring"
and "pokornĂ˝" as "humble" or "meek".
[/quote]
Yes, modest is a better word than humble. Humble/meek in Slovene would
be "poniĹľen".
[quote]And following the ever-increasing circles for fun.
In the reverse direction and depending on context
"modest" can be translated as "skromnĂ˝", "mĂrnĂ˝" or "slušnĂ˝".
"retiring" can be translated as "nevtĂravĂ˝", "skromnĂ˝".
"humble" can be translated as "nĂzkĂ˝", "nepatrnĂ˝"; or "skromnĂ˝"; or "oddanĂ˝".
"meek" can be translated as "měkký", "jemný", or "pokorný".
And...so on, and so on. it's like a nuclear chain reaction.
[/quote]
Something like that, yes.
So what is than the meaning of "PokornĂ˝"? Modest or humble/meek? |
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| PaulJK... |
| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:28 am |
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Nikolaj wrote:
[quote]PaulJK pravi:
I think you're right, I'd say it's definitely a compound po-koriti.
In the conteporary Czech it is a compound of the prefix "po-"
and verb "kořiti". In Czech this verb is still used, usually in
a reflexive form "kořiti se", therefore, its meaning is reversed,
"kořiti se" in front of someone means "to adore" or "to worship"
someone. In the non-reflexive form it is normally not used
without "po-" which also changes aspect to one-time perfective.
There is no reversal of meaning in Slovene, "koriti se" would mean "to
scold oneself".
(In Slovene "humble" would be "skromen".)
Okay, they are similar in Czech too.
Cz "skromnĂ˝" is usually translated as "modest" or "retiring"
and "pokornĂ˝" as "humble" or "meek".
Yes, modest is a better word than humble. Humble/meek in Slovene would
be "poniĹľen".
And following the ever-increasing circles for fun.
In the reverse direction and depending on context
"modest" can be translated as "skromnĂ˝", "mĂrnĂ˝" or "slušnĂ˝".
"retiring" can be translated as "nevtĂravĂ˝", "skromnĂ˝".
"humble" can be translated as "nĂzkĂ˝", "nepatrnĂ˝"; or "skromnĂ˝"; or "oddanĂ˝".
"meek" can be translated as "měkký", "jemný", or "pokorný".
And...so on, and so on. it's like a nuclear chain reaction. :-)
:) Something like that, yes.
So what is than the meaning of "PokornĂ˝"? Modest or humble/meek?
[/quote]
According to my old Czech-English dictionary, in the language
of early 1900s it would be humble/meek, not modest. I'd agree
with that translation especially with modest not being included.
The name, of course, originated some centuries earlier and
the meaning of "pokora" may have changed, but if it did, I'd
say by not much.
pjk |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:33 am |
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On Dec 1, 10:58 am, Adam Funk <a24... at (no spam) ducksburg.com> wrote:
[quote]On 2009-10-29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
The latest issue of *Language* (which arrived today) contains a reply
by the original authors to Everett's reply.
What's your opinion on this controversy? Do you think he might be
right or is fraudulent or just badly mistaken?
(I read Everett's popular book earlier this year and he didn't strike
me as the dishonest type.)
[/quote]
If the things Everett says about the Piraha "language" are correct,
then he is saying that the Piraha "people" are not human. |
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| Adam Funk... |
| Posted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:58 am |
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Guest
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On 2009-10-29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]The latest issue of *Language* (which arrived today) contains a reply
by the original authors to Everett's reply.
[/quote]
What's your opinion on this controversy? Do you think he might be
right or is fraudulent or just badly mistaken?
(I read Everett's popular book earlier this year and he didn't strike
me as the dishonest type.)
--
Oh, I am just a student, sir, and I only want to learn
But it's hard to read through the rising smoke
of the books that you want to burn
[Phil Ochs] |
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| Peter T. Daniels... |
| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 4:08 am |
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Guest
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On Dec 2, 8:51 am, Adam Funk <a24... at (no spam) ducksburg.com> wrote:
[quote]On 2009-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
On Dec 1, 10:58 am, Adam Funk <a24... at (no spam) ducksburg.com> wrote:
On 2009-10-29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
The latest issue of *Language* (which arrived today) contains a reply
by the original authors to Everett's reply.
What's your opinion on this controversy? Do you think he might be
right or is fraudulent or just badly mistaken?
(I read Everett's popular book earlier this year and he didn't strike
me as the dishonest type.)
If the things Everett says about the Piraha "language" are correct,
then he is saying that the Piraha "people" are not human.
Does he actually make the second half of that claim? I mean
[/quote]
Did I suggest that he does?
[quote] Everett: Their language is missing these important
properties, therefore they are subhuman/not human.
vs
Everett: Their language is missing these important
properties---
Everyone else, interrupting: If that were true,
they would be subhuman!
Everett, drowned out by the clamour: so we need
to reconsider what is essential in a human language.
?
[/quote]
I think Mr. Occam would suggest that it's Everett's understanding
that's at fault, not everything every other linguist knows about human
language.
Note that he is powerfully ideologically driven -- he is determined to
show that certain aspects of Chomskyan theory are incorrect. |
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| Adam Funk... |
| Posted: Wed Dec 02, 2009 8:51 am |
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Guest
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On 2009-12-01, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
[quote]On Dec 1, 10:58Â am, Adam Funk <a24... at (no spam) ducksburg.com> wrote:
On 2009-10-29, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
The latest issue of *Language* (which arrived today) contains a reply
by the original authors to Everett's reply.
What's your opinion on this controversy? Â Do you think he might be
right or is fraudulent or just badly mistaken?
(I read Everett's popular book earlier this year and he didn't strike
me as the dishonest type.)
If the things Everett says about the Piraha "language" are correct,
then he is saying that the Piraha "people" are not human.
[/quote]
Does he actually make the second half of that claim? I mean
Everett: Their language is missing these important
properties, therefore they are subhuman/not human.
vs
Everett: Their language is missing these important
properties---
Everyone else, interrupting: If that were true,
they would be subhuman!
Everett, drowned out by the clamour: so we need
to reconsider what is essential in a human language.
?
--
"It is the role of librarians to keep government running in difficult
times," replied Dramoren. "Librarians are the last line of defence
against chaos." (McMullen 2001) |
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