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| Ruud Harmsen... |
 Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:09 am |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Is she a native speaker? Her name suggests otherwise, but I think her
pronunciation is very very close to the real thing, except in the
first couple of "nasci"s, where the c sounds almost Spanish. Or is it
Galician?
(I was really looking for the same song sung by Beatriz da Conceição,
which I once heard on the radio and made a note of being very
beautiful.)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 3:57 pm |
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On Nov 2, 11:09 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
[quote]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Is she a native speaker? Her name suggests otherwise, but I think her
pronunciation is very very close to the real thing, except in the
first couple of "nasci"s, where the c sounds almost Spanish. Or is it
Galician?
[/quote]
No, it most certainly isn't. She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for <não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants, probably azorean, who (like so many
others) kept their language but use primarily english in their daily
lives.
(*) I have never heard a non-native get those right.
[quote](I was really looking for the same song sung by Beatriz da Conceição,
which I once heard on the radio and made a note of being very
beautiful.)
--
Ruud Harmsen,http://rudhar.com[/quote] |
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| Harlan Messinger... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:43 pm |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote]On Nov 2, 11:09 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Is she a native speaker? Her name suggests otherwise, but I think her
pronunciation is very very close to the real thing, except in the
first couple of "nasci"s, where the c sounds almost Spanish. Or is it
Galician?
No, it most certainly isn't. She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for <não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants, probably azorean, who (like so many
others) kept their language but use primarily english in their daily
lives.
[/quote]
English? Upon emigrating to Portugal? |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:00 am |
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Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:57:11 -0800 (PST): António Marques
<entonio at (no spam) gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
[quote]On Nov 2, 11:09 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Is she a native speaker? [...]
[...] She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for <não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants, probably azorean, who (like so many
others) kept their language but use primarily english in their daily
lives.
[/quote]
French, I think. There's another Youtube film where she sings in Paris
and announces it in (what sounds to me as) perfect native-sounding
French. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYZjGZmSQAg
(I'm not very fond of the way she interprets the song there, but
that's another matter.)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:01 am |
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Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:43:53 -0500: Harlan Messinger
<hmessinger.removethis at (no spam) comcast.net>: in sci.lang:
[quote]António Marques wrote:
On Nov 2, 11:09 am, Ruud Harmsen <r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Is she a native speaker? Her name suggests otherwise, but I think her
pronunciation is very very close to the real thing, except in the
first couple of "nasci"s, where the c sounds almost Spanish. Or is it
Galician?
No, it most certainly isn't. She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for <não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants, probably azorean, who (like so many
others) kept their language but use primarily english in their daily
lives.
English? Upon emigrating to Portugal?
[/quote]
I think António means (for example) Azores to the US or Azores to
Canada. Nelly Furtado is an example of the latter.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Ekkehard Dengler... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:09 am |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
[quote]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Is she a native speaker? Her name suggests otherwise, but I think her
pronunciation is very very close to the real thing, except in the
first couple of "nasci"s, where the c sounds almost Spanish. Or is it
Galician?
[/quote]
Definitely non-native: "g[En]te que cá mora", "[ at (no spam) ]ma[nj]ã", "ap[rr]az".
Besides, "sem pobres a morar nem zona demarcada" makes no sense, it should
be "em zona demarcada".
Regards,
Ekkehard |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:10 am |
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Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:57:11 -0800 (PST): António Marques
<entonio at (no spam) gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
[quote]No, it most certainly isn't. She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for <não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants,
[/quote]
Perhaps her <não> is something like [no~], which may occur in some
northern Portuguese dialects? Suppose here parents were from there?
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 4:08 am |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:06 am |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
[quote]Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:57:11 -0800 (PST): António Marques
entonio at (no spam) gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
No, it most certainly isn't. She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for<não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants,
Perhaps her <não> is something like [no~], which may occur in some
northern Portuguese dialects? Suppose here parents were from there?
[/quote]
It doesn't sound to me like that kind; nor does the rest of her accent.
But anything is possible... |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:07 am |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
[quote]Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:43:53 -0500: Harlan Messinger
hmessinger.removethis at (no spam) comcast.net>: in sci.lang:
António Marques wrote:
On Nov 2, 11:09 am, Ruud Harmsen<r... at (no spam) rudhar.eu> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Is she a native speaker? Her name suggests otherwise, but I think her
pronunciation is very very close to the real thing, except in the
first couple of "nasci"s, where the c sounds almost Spanish. Or is it
Galician?
No, it most certainly isn't. She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for<não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants, probably azorean, who (like so many
others) kept their language but use primarily english in their daily
lives.
English? Upon emigrating to Portugal?
I think António means (for example) Azores to the US or Azores to
Canada. Nelly Furtado is an example of the latter.
[/quote]
And much worse, I should add. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:13 am |
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Ruud Harmsen wrote:
[quote]Ruud Harmsen wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:09:42 +0100: Ekkehard Dengler:
Definitely non-native: "g[En]te que cá mora", "[ at (no spam) ]ma[nj]ã", "ap[rr]az".
Besides, "sem pobres a morar nem zona demarcada" makes no sense, it should
be "em zona demarcada".
[/quote]
Yeah, as if natives didn't sing nonsense all the time. And this
particular genre is especially prone to it.
Consistent [nj] for <nh> is just what you'd expect from someone having
english as their first language (certainly not from a native french
speaker, though some occitan regions do have precisely that pronunciation).
[quote]Right. Cf. http://fadosdofado.blogspot.com/2008/07/eu-nasci-amanh.html
Another mistake: "que dá" for<cada> /k3d3/.
[/quote]
That's just one more example of her mixed up stressed / at (no spam) /s and /e/s.
Which you find among second-generation emigrants all the time. |
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| António Marques... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:30 am |
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António Marques wrote:
[quote]Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Ruud Harmsen wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:09:42 +0100: Ekkehard Dengler:
Definitely non-native: "g[En]te que cá mora", "[ at (no spam) ]ma[nj]ã", "ap[rr]az".
Besides, "sem pobres a morar nem zona demarcada" makes no sense, it
should
be "em zona demarcada".
Yeah, as if natives didn't sing nonsense all the time. And this
particular genre is especially prone to it.
Consistent [nj] for <nh> is just what you'd expect from someone having
english as their first language (certainly not from a native french
speaker, though some occitan regions do have precisely that pronunciation).
[/quote]
http://www.lusojornal.com/archives/unefr211.pdf seems to say she's
french and that's it:
"Ouvimos cantar Paulo Manuel, e depois os convidados surpresa,
Karine Bücher (uma francesa com garra e lindos poemas),
Jean-Luc Gonneau (um intelectual-fadista já bem nosso conhecido, o
Marceneiro francês), Lisa Maria, que estava na assistência e Casimiro
que também cantou."
('Bücher' doesn't seem french and you'd expect alsatians to leave out
the umlaut, but one never knows.)
But I insist that she does get right precisely those parts of the
language that non-natives never do: intonation, the exact values of
vowels (and, what's more, nasal diphthongs, such as at (no spam) ~j), the multiple
pronunciations of <s>... whether she is of portuguese descent or not,
that would seem to indicate she learned the language as a child. The
parts that she gets 'wrong' are not the kind you expect from an L2 speaker. |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:44 am |
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Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:07:24 +0000: António Marques <m.ap at (no spam) sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:
[quote]English? Upon emigrating to Portugal?
I think António means (for example) Azores to the US or Azores to
Canada. Nelly Furtado is an example of the latter.
And much worse, I should add.
[/quote]
She still speaks the language, although she hardly dares believe it
herself, which is why she constantly mixes in English when interviewed
in Portuguese. If she didn't, I expect she might be fluent and
accentless again after a few minutes.
(Observation based on a radio interview I once heard.)
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:45 am |
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Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:06:24 +0000: António Marques <m.ap at (no spam) sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:
[quote]Ruud Harmsen wrote:
Mon, 2 Nov 2009 17:57:11 -0800 (PST): António Marques
entonio at (no spam) gmail.com>: in sci.lang:
No, it most certainly isn't. She has perfect [ at (no spam) ]s and [+]s *, has a
couple of [ at (no spam) ~] for [e~], [nu] for<não>, and from that I'd almost bet
she's a daughter of emigrants,
Perhaps her <não> is something like [no~], which may occur in some
northern Portuguese dialects? Suppose here parents were from there?
It doesn't sound to me like that kind;
[/quote]
I agree now. I often heard that sound in songs by Francisco
Lameirinhas, but it is quite different from hers.
[quote]nor does the rest of her accent.
But anything is possible...
[/quote]
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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| Ruud Harmsen... |
| Posted: Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:57 am |
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[quote]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxAlah_Gl24
Eu nasci amanhã, by Karine Bucher.
Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:09:42 +0100: Ekkehard Dengler:
Definitely non-native: "g[En]te que cá mora", "[ at (no spam) ]ma[nj]ã", "ap[rr]az".
Besides, "sem pobres a morar nem zona demarcada" makes no sense, it should
be "em zona demarcada".
[/quote]
Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:13:58 +0000: António Marques <m.ap at (no spam) sapo.pt>: in
sci.lang:
[quote]Yeah, as if natives didn't sing nonsense all the time.
[/quote]
There is a singing technique in which hard vowel onsets are avoided by
prepending something like a nasal. Cf.
http://www.amazon.com/Fado-Capital-4/dp/B000QZX7OU where Beatriz
Conceição, sings "Eu nasci amanhã" almost as "neu .." or "meu ..". But
what Karine Bucher does seems different, too conspicuous. So maybe
it's a noy fully mastered singing technique rathed than a not fully
mastered language.
[quote]And this
particular genre is especially prone to it.
[/quote]
Ho ho! Of course I strongly disagree! (;[_
[quote]Right. Cf. http://fadosdofado.blogspot.com/2008/07/eu-nasci-amanh.html
Another mistake: "que dá" for<cada> /k3d3/.
That's just one more example of her mixed up stressed / at (no spam) /s and /e/s.
Which you find among second-generation emigrants all the time.
[/quote]
Not among the bilinguals I often hear on Paris-based Rádio Alfa, but
maybe the interlocutores there are specially selected for having
preserved their parents' language in pure enough form.
--
Ruud Harmsen, http://rudhar.com |
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