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| jenneylist... |
 Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 11:36 pm |
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| hhc314... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:54 am |
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On Oct 28, 2:36 am, jenneylist <jenneyl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]How to convert a car to run on electricity and slash gas costs to
zero.http://www.uretima.info/2009/10/how-to-convert-car-to-run-on.html
[/quote]
You are forgetting that electricity is more costly than gasoline.
Harry C. |
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| hhc314... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:31 am |
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On Oct 29, 10:25 am, DanB <a... at (no spam) some.net> wrote:
[quote]hhc314 wrote:
On Oct 28, 2:36 am, jenneylist <jenneyl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
How to convert a car to run on electricity and slash gas costs to
zero.http://www.uretima.info/2009/10/how-to-convert-car-to-run-on.html
You are forgetting that electricity is more costly than gasoline.
How do you figure that Harry?
[/quote]
Dan, you have to be joking!
How do I figure this out? Simple, the majority of electricity
distributed in the United States is generated through the combustion
of fossil fuels, plus a small amount of nuclear and hydroelectric.
Solar and wind energy sources are insignificant, and likely will
remain so.
So, you take that gallon of gasoline, chuck it into you electric
company's furnace to boil the water into steam to run the turbines
that drive the generators. At this point you've already burned
possible 20% of the gasoline's energy content in various forms of
thermodynamic inefficiencies.
Now, you must transmit that generated electricity to the electric
customers, which in turn involves additional energy losses, plus
someone has to pay for the infrastucture required to bring that
electricity to your home. Guess who pays for this?
Dan, the bottom line is the electric bill, something that clearly you
have never seen nor paid (thank God for parents who pay the electric
bills). Mine last month was over $150 for a small consumption in a
single family home heated by gas. I believe our total consumption of
electricity was roughly 1200 Kwh for the entire month.
Do you realize how many Kwh of electricity are consumed by charging
the battery on an electric car? Learn how to run the numbers, or be
eternally ignorant (hopefully with someone else paying your electric
bills).
Just to educate you a little, a 1-Horsepower electric motor consumes
746-Watts for every second it operates. (Electric car motors are
required to produce many Horsepowers, and consume a multiple of this
figure). So, lets assume that on average, your tiny electric car
requires 15 hp just to start, stop and get around the local area.
Thats a demand of 11.1 Kw, and if you drive it for an hour, that's
11.1 Kwh. Figure the fully burdened cost of electricity at $0.18 per
Kwh, and your one hour junket around the neighborhood cost your (or
your parents) nearly $2.00.
You would have burned 1/2 gallon of gas for that same trip, less if
you drive a compact. Now my friend, figure in the cost premium that
you paid to own an electric vehicle plus the cost of replacing its
deep-cycle storage batteries every 2 or so years. Also add in the
fact that when you bring your electric car home at night to charge,
the demand it imposes on the electric grid will be sufficient to
motivate your electric company to change your electric service from
'residential' to 'industrial', at which point they will replace your
electric meter with a peak demand monitoring meter (if you don't know
what this means, contact your electric company and ask). Trust me in
saying that this is still another cost modifier, and one that is not
to your advantage.
Cutting to the bottom line, that $2.50/gallon tank of gasoline, when
converted to electricity is going to cost you roughly $25 per
equivalent gallon.
Does that help to explain?
Now don't take me the wrong way. I truly believe that in the future
all cars will be electrically propelled...say in 50 years. By that
time better and more efficient mobile energy storage systems will have
been developed, and highways will power our cars just like subway
trains. The electricity will be supplied by large nuclear reactor
facilities, likely centrally located in no-fault seismic zone, with
d.c. transmission lines traversing our country.
Did I say 50 years? 100 years might be a more realistic estimate,
since I should have factored in the time required to rebuild our
country post-Globalization, and to rebuild our industrial strength and
agriculture...in turn to provide employment for Americans. Even a
dummy knows that you cannot create jobs without rebuilding our
industries and agriculture. I figure that, once we kick the SOBS out
of Washington, the rebuilding will take at least 25 years.
Harry C. |
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| DanB... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:25 am |
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hhc314 wrote:
[quote]On Oct 28, 2:36 am, jenneylist <jenneyl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
How to convert a car to run on electricity and slash gas costs to
zero.http://www.uretima.info/2009/10/how-to-convert-car-to-run-on.html
You are forgetting that electricity is more costly than gasoline.
[/quote]
How do you figure that Harry? |
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| DanB... |
| Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 3:06 pm |
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hhc314 wrote:
[quote]On Oct 29, 10:25 am, DanB <a... at (no spam) some.net> wrote:
hhc314 wrote:
On Oct 28, 2:36 am, jenneylist <jenneyl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
How to convert a car to run on electricity and slash gas costs to
zero.http://www.uretima.info/2009/10/how-to-convert-car-to-run-on.html
You are forgetting that electricity is more costly than gasoline.
How do you figure that Harry?
Dan, you have to be joking!
[/quote]
Nope, and I hope you don't mind if I snip a pile of unrelated numbers
and assertions... Do keep in mind I ask a simple question.
[quote]Just to educate you a little, a 1-Horsepower electric motor consumes
746-Watts for every second it operates.
[/quote]
Better to say ~800wh/hour, but not relevant.
(Electric car motors are
[quote]required to produce many Horsepowers
[/quote]
many is not a quantity and why I snipped the above.
[quote]figure). So, lets assume that on average, your tiny electric car
requires 15 hp just to start, stop and get around the local area.
Thats a demand of 11.1 Kw, and if you drive it for an hour, that's
11.1 Kwh. Figure the fully burdened cost of electricity at $0.18 per
Kwh
[/quote]
What does your 'fully burdened' mean? Are you saying my $.10/kwh is
'not' fully burdened? You see, you can not just make assertions like
this to suit your agenda.
, and your one hour junket around the neighborhood cost your (or
[quote]your parents) nearly $2.00.
[/quote]
Your point?
[quote]You would have burned 1/2 gallon of gas for that same trip...
[/quote]
Where did you get this number? As for that matter I didn't see any hard
numbers for the 'nearly $2' I mean that you claim 11.1kwh/hour but you
have not really qualified it. Have you looked at the power required to
move a small car at 45mph?
, less if
[quote]you drive a compact. Now my friend, figure in the cost premium that
you paid to own an electric vehicle plus the cost of replacing its
deep-cycle storage batteries every 2 or so years...
[/quote]
Wait a minute, your original claim was, 'electricity is more costly than
gasoline.' No mention of infrastructure. At that, who says you have to
use inferior lead acid storage? But, enough of this rabbit hole...
[quote]Also add in the
fact that when you bring your electric car home at night to charge,
the demand it imposes on the electric grid will be sufficient to
motivate your electric company to change your electric service from
'residential' to 'industrial', at which point they will replace your
electric meter with a peak demand monitoring meter...
[/quote]
Where do you get this stuff? A stinky place?
[quote]Cutting to the bottom line, that $2.50/gallon tank of gasoline, when
converted to electricity is going to cost you roughly $25 per
equivalent gallon.
[/quote]
You may arrive here in some twisted manor, never the less, we can look
at the simple numbers.
Last month I paid $.10/kwh. There are 115kbtu in a gallon of gas. That
is 33kwh in equivalent heating energy. From here you can crunch the
number like Don does and compare apples and oranges. The latest national
avarage for gasoline was $2.68 and at my electrical rate the 'heating'
equivalent is $3.30.
Now, I'll leave it to you to understand why I wrote 'heating equivalent'
and why electicity is really cheaper.
[quote]
Does that help to explain?
[/quote]
No. You have scolded me for not understanding the numbers where it seems
you have yet to show meaningful numbers. In the stead you have
obvastated by moving goal posts and using false claims.
If you think the equivalent is $25/gallon, show hard numbers and stop
waving your hands about. Acting all self important and making like I
don't get it is a cheap usenet trick and you will only fool those that
want to be fooled.
[quote]Now don't take me the wrong way. I truly believe that in the future
all cars will be electrically propelled...say in 50 years. By that
time better and more efficient mobile energy storage systems will have
been developed, and highways will power our cars just like subway
trains. The electricity will be supplied by large nuclear reactor
facilities, likely centrally located in no-fault seismic zone, with
d.c. transmission lines traversing our country.
Did I say 50 years? 100 years might be a more realistic estimate,
since I should have factored in the time required to rebuild our
country post-Globalization, and to rebuild our industrial strength and
agriculture...in turn to provide employment for Americans. Even a
dummy knows that you cannot create jobs without rebuilding our
industries and agriculture. I figure that, once we kick the SOBS out
of Washington, the rebuilding will take at least 25 years.
[/quote]
Wow Harry, so much science fiction, IMHO. We don't have the time and as
I have been pointing out for going on a decade, talk means nothing until
we really start doing big and fundamental changing.
I know you don't get it, very few on usenet have bothered to 'study'
this stuff. Yes Harry, study and learn how it works. In the stead, just
a lot of pontification about how it is, from opinion, and how it should
be, from opinion.
I notice you never follow up when I talk about our condition. |
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| gdewilde... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 1:51 am |
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On Oct 28, 10:36 am, jenneylist <jenneyl... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote]How to convert a car to run on electricity and slash gas costs to
zero.http://www.uretima.info/2009/10/how-to-convert-car-to-run-on.html
[/quote]
I've seen worse ecommerce, this looks like it has actual value.
http://evsecrets.com
Surprising, but available for free also:
http://www.evconvert.com |
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| tj Frazir... |
| Posted: Fri Oct 30, 2009 9:30 am |
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Cooke1A.GIF
Address:http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/Museum/Power/RotaryEngines/Cooke1A.GIF
200 years of market protection.
Make a better hydra-electric .
Its crude but it was smart as a pultz steamer not a constant stream of
steam but as a slide vane expansion chamber it might be fair.
A liquid piston is better and drive this with water under 500 psi.
The sad fact is you dont know about it because the gov hides it to
protect the oil bosses.
Whale.Steam.Engine.3.jpg
Address:http://jeffrelf.f-m.fm/Whale.Steam.Engine.3.jpg Changed:4:44 PM
on Wednesday, October 14, 2009
175 MPG is the standard.
Why dont you know none of the worlds problems are neaded . The oil boss
is protected by the gov and they nead your ignorance .
$ 20,000,000 when I see the (whale steam engine) in google images.
You.d think that would be n easy 20 million bucks but lets see it on
google then.
IF the gov dont prevent it from showing up and its no longer contained
info its worth 20 mil and maybe 200 mil.
I cant pay 200 mil and put it on tv.
They just wount let me put it on tv not even for 200 millon.
want 20 million ? let me see the pic on google.
Ill just direct deposit 20 mil.
im worth 9 billion |
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| George Cornelius... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 9:07 am |
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DanB wrote:
[quote]You may arrive here in some twisted manner, never the less, we can look
at the simple numbers.
Last month I paid $.10/kwh. There are 115kbtu in a gallon of gas. That
is 33kwh in equivalent heating energy. From here you can crunch the
number like Don does and compare apples and oranges. The latest national
avarage for gasoline was $2.68 and at my electrical rate the 'heating'
equivalent is $3.30.
[/quote]
Calculations using my local prices and energy conversions at
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=about_energy_conversion_calculator-basics :
( $2.60/gal ) / ( .131 GJ/gal ) => $20/GJ gasoline
( $0.10/kwh ) / ( .0036 GJ/kwh ) => $28/GJ retail electricity
[quote]Now, I'll leave it to you to understand why I wrote 'heating equivalent'
and why electicity is really cheaper.
[/quote]
What you want to measure is mechanical energy delivered to the wheels,
assuming rolling losses are the same.
Clearly electric power wins - until you factor in the cost, and limited
lifetime, of the batteries. Forget the electricity costs. Figure how
far you get per pound of battery destruction.
Harry talked around the issues but never seemed to get to the heart of
the matter.
George Cornelius |
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| tj Frazir... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 10:10 am |
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| DanB... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 31, 2009 3:14 pm |
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George Cornelius wrote:
[quote]DanB wrote:
You may arrive here in some twisted manner, never the less, we can
look at the simple numbers.
Last month I paid $.10/kwh. There are 115kbtu in a gallon of gas. That
is 33kwh in equivalent heating energy. From here you can crunch the
number like Don does and compare apples and oranges. The latest
national avarage for gasoline was $2.68 and at my electrical rate the
'heating' equivalent is $3.30.
Calculations using my local prices and energy conversions at
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=about_energy_conversion_calculator-basics
:
( $2.60/gal ) / ( .131 GJ/gal ) => $20/GJ gasoline
( $0.10/kwh ) / ( .0036 GJ/kwh ) => $28/GJ retail electricity
[/quote]
Yea, so? Same results if using the same starting numbers.
[quote]
Now, I'll leave it to you to understand why I wrote 'heating
equivalent' and why electicity is really cheaper.
What you want to measure is mechanical energy delivered to the wheels,
assuming rolling losses are the same.
[/quote]
Well, I don't want to measure as I have nothing to prove.
[quote]
Clearly electric power wins...
[/quote]
Of course it does as heating value of gasoline in a motor vehicle will
be some four times the equivalent electrical energy from an electric
motor; per unit of mechanical energy.
- until you factor in the cost, and limited
[quote]lifetime, of the batteries. Forget the electricity costs. Figure how
far you get per pound of battery destruction.
Harry talked around the issues but never seemed to get to the heart of
the matter.
[/quote]
Actually, he never even mentioned that there was a qualifier in his
original post.
He only wrote, 'You are forgetting that electricity is more costly than
gasoline.'
As for your batteries you are doing the same thing as I approached Harry
on. You are claiming the offset cost will get you. No numbers, no
studies, no cites, just a claim...
And if you are wondering, I had run the numbers some time ago. Today we
own a VW TDI. |
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| hhc314... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 7:25 am |
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On Oct 31, 7:07 am, George Cornelius <STXgcornelius... at (no spam) charter.net>
wrote:
[quote]DanB wrote:
You may arrive here in some twisted manner, never the less, we can look
at the simple numbers.
Last month I paid $.10/kwh. There are 115kbtu in a gallon of gas. That
is 33kwh in equivalent heating energy. From here you can crunch the
number like Don does and compare apples and oranges. The latest national
avarage for gasoline was $2.68 and at my electrical rate the 'heating'
equivalent is $3.30.
Calculations using my local prices and energy conversions at
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/kids/energy.cfm?page=about_energy_conversion...:
( $2.60/gal ) / ( .131 GJ/gal ) => $20/GJ gasoline
( $0.10/kwh ) / ( .0036 GJ/kwh ) => $28/GJ retail electricity
Now, I'll leave it to you to understand why I wrote 'heating equivalent'
and why electicity is really cheaper.
What you want to measure is mechanical energy delivered to the wheels,
assuming rolling losses are the same.
Clearly electric power wins - until you factor in the cost, and limited
lifetime, of the batteries. Forget the electricity costs. Figure how
far you get per pound of battery destruction.
Harry talked around the issues but never seemed to get to the heart of
the matter.
George Cornelius
[/quote]
George, no disrespect intended, but it seems clear to me that neither
your nor DanB have engineering or hard scientific backgrounds, and
simpy cannot get a hold on scientific fact.
If an pays 10-cents per Kwh for his electricity, I sure would like to
know where he lives and what the name of his electric utility is.
Here in the Northeast an most of the West Coast, the going rate is
currently 18-cents per Kwh and rising. In fact, the only time that I
have ever seen electricity at 10-cents or under per Kwh was when I was
living in Fairport NY where we had a not-for-profit town electric
company (Fairport Electric) that purchase hydro generated electricity
directly from Niagara Mohawk at a preferential rate (behcause their
high-line to the NYC area ran directly though our town). Then too, at
times the low rate we paid meant that Fairport Electric had no
maintenance crews, so electric outages often ran for a week or more.
As a results of these frequent electric outages, nearly everyone in
town owned an emergency generator and was very familar with the fuel
cost to operate it. (I still own my little 3-Kw generator, but in the
Boston suburbs only need is perhaps every 3-4 years. It consumes
roughly 1/2 gallon of fuel per hour when operated under full load
making its operating cost roughly equal to the cost of commercial
electricity.
The utility company nuclear and fossil fueled generators produce
electricity at roughly twice my efficiency, but to their cost of
generation they add transmission like charges plus amortize their
infracture costs and add it to the Kwh cost of the delivered
electricity.
George, and to DanB, neither of you guys want to discuss any of the
details. Of course, the Devil is in those details. DanB even believes
that demand metering comes from a "smelly place" which I agree it
does. That "smelly place" is the electric company, who must size
their transmission lines and distribution transformers based on peak
power demand, not average consumption. Their solution is to install a
peak demand measuring meter (so they can charge for peak demand PLUS
total Kwh consumption). These soon will be a very real fact of life
to electric car owners who charge them at their residence!
Like I said above, the Devil is in the details. Ignore the details,
and your green ideas seem very good. Ignore the sum of all the little
details and you come across looking as stupid as our federal
government!
Harry C. |
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| DanB... |
| Posted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 1:14 pm |
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hhc314 wrote:
[quote]
George, no disrespect intended, but it seems clear to me that neither
your nor DanB have engineering or hard scientific backgrounds, and
simpy cannot get a hold on scientific fact.
[/quote]
See below...
[quote]If an pays 10-cents per Kwh for his electricity, I sure would like to
know where he lives and what the name of his electric utility is.
[/quote]
<http://www.navopache.org/>
[quote]George, and to DanB, neither of you guys want to discuss any of the
details.
[/quote]
Sorry Harry,
That is a bald face lie. I posted plenty of numbers where as you did a
lot of hand waving.
[quote]Like I said above, the Devil is in the details. Ignore the details,
and your green ideas seem very good...
[/quote]
Another lie. I don't have any illusion that we will ever replace cheap
fossil fuels with 'green' energy and sustain this standard of living.
Your reading skills are slipping.
You are flogging the wrong horse. The real challenge we face is that
fossil fuels are not limitless and that we are treating them as if they
were.
It is you that seems to lack a grasp of the numbers.
<http://lakeweb.blogspot.com/>
I wrote this, it is not an arbitrary link.
Now, ditch your MO of posting days latter with, "I'm a physicist
therefor you have no grasp..."
It is looking pretty lame.
Best, Dan. |
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| hhc314... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:17 am |
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Guest
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On Nov 4, 10:14 am, DanB <a... at (no spam) some.net> wrote:
[quote]hhc314 wrote:
George, no disrespect intended, but it seems clear to me that neither
your nor DanB have engineering or hard scientific backgrounds, and
simpy cannot get a hold on scientific fact.
See below...
If an pays 10-cents per Kwh for his electricity, I sure would like to
know where he lives and what the name of his electric utility is.
http://www.navopache.org/
George, and to DanB, neither of you guys want to discuss any of the
details.
Sorry Harry,
That is a bald face lie. I posted plenty of numbers where as you did a
lot of hand waving.
Like I said above, the Devil is in the details. Ignore the details,
and your green ideas seem very good...
Another lie. I don't have any illusion that we will ever replace cheap
fossil fuels with 'green' energy and sustain this standard of living.
Your reading skills are slipping.
You are flogging the wrong horse. The real challenge we face is that
fossil fuels are not limitless and that we are treating them as if they
were.
It is you that seems to lack a grasp of the numbers.
http://lakeweb.blogspot.com/
I wrote this, it is not an arbitrary link.
Now, ditch your MO of posting days latter with, "I'm a physicist
therefor you have no grasp..."
It is looking pretty lame.
Best, Dan.
[/quote]
Dan, not worth arguing about. It's a dead horse and sooner or later
people will realize that.
Harry C. |
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| DanB... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:12 pm |
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Guest
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hhc314 wrote:
[quote]On Nov 4, 10:14 am, DanB <a... at (no spam) some.net> wrote:
hhc314 wrote:
George, no disrespect intended, but it seems clear to me that neither
your nor DanB have engineering or hard scientific backgrounds, and
simpy cannot get a hold on scientific fact.
See below...
If an pays 10-cents per Kwh for his electricity, I sure would like to
know where he lives and what the name of his electric utility is.
http://www.navopache.org/
George, and to DanB, neither of you guys want to discuss any of the
details.
Sorry Harry,
That is a bald face lie. I posted plenty of numbers where as you did a
lot of hand waving.
Like I said above, the Devil is in the details. Ignore the details,
and your green ideas seem very good...
Another lie. I don't have any illusion that we will ever replace cheap
fossil fuels with 'green' energy and sustain this standard of living.
Your reading skills are slipping.
You are flogging the wrong horse. The real challenge we face is that
fossil fuels are not limitless and that we are treating them as if they
were.
It is you that seems to lack a grasp of the numbers.
http://lakeweb.blogspot.com/
I wrote this, it is not an arbitrary link.
Now, ditch your MO of posting days latter with, "I'm a physicist
therefor you have no grasp..."
It is looking pretty lame.
Best, Dan.
Dan, not worth arguing about.
[/quote]
So, you are willing to retract your claim above? (The first sentence.)
[quote]It's a dead horse and sooner or later
people will realize that.
[/quote]
I'm not sure what "it's" you are talking about here...
Best, Dan. |
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| tj Frazir... |
| Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:08 pm |
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All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:00 am
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