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| Science Forum Index » Energy - Hydrogen Forum » Ohio State Buckeye Bullet 2... |
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| Sam West... |
 Posted: Thu Oct 01, 2009 2:27 pm |
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Guest
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The Ohio State Buckeye Bullet 2 has hit a new land speed record for
fuel cell vehicles with an exit speed of 304 mph. The land speed
record is still unofficial because fuel cell vehicles are not yet
recognized by FIA or ASN. |
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| hhc314... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 6:24 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 1, 8:27 pm, Sam West <smante... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:a79b29f1d4]The Ohio State Buckeye Bullet 2 has hit a new land speed record for
fuel cell vehicles with an exit speed of 304 mph. The land speed
record is still unofficial because fuel cell vehicles are not yet
recognized by FIA or ASN.
[/quote:a79b29f1d4]
....Or NASCAR might I add.
Project like this are fun, but costly, without any providing any
scientific or engineering value in return.
It goes without saying that I am most skeptical about the value of
hydrogen for an automotive fuel for multiple reasons, and which of one
is a "show stopper." As per usual, the devil is in the details which
the promoters of hydrogen as fuel pretend not to exist, and the
production and distribution of hydrogen is the least of the problems.
Because of the temperature-pressure vs. time behavior of hydrogen
explosion, although you can make a conventional reciprocating engine
run on it (with severe levels of thermodynamic inefficiency), but both
the performance and working lifetime of the engine are very sharply
limited. In fact, to burn hydrogen efficiently for powering a
reciprocating engine, you would have to make the cylinders and piston
thermally emulate adiabatic containment. (Ask a physicist or
mechanical engineer about this -- simple thermodynamics.) Ask
yourself: When was the last time you saw a thermally insulative
ceramic engine block with ceramic pistons? That would be the starting
point for a practical hydrogen powered car that would. in daily
service, reach a life expectancy of 10 years.
Sam, other details become much worse and still more limiting.
Hydrogen is a very valuable commodity, but I personally believe it
will never play any role in automotive transportation. Then too, I am
simply a now retired physicist and engineer, so what do I know!
Harry C.
p.s., Sorry Sam, but I couldn't resist. Beside, most of my ire is
focused on what those elected and owned idiots in DC are attempting to
do with this universal health care bill they are trying to sell,
against vast public resistance. The basis for this resistance comes
from us, members of the older generation who directly or indirectly
depend on Medicare for our health benefits. Nobody wants to deny
every US resident from health care, but when you reach age 65, you are
no longer eligible for Blue Cross/Blue Shield membership (this fact is
not widely publicished)...consequently you depend on Medicare and have
a medicare supplementary health care policy. Now here is the gotcha:
The proposed plan calls for the reduction of Medicare benefits (which
is an entitlement that almost all of us have paid into for the
majority of our working lives). This reduction in Medicare benefits
will likely elimite the availability of life saving non-invasive
procedures such as MRI scans and certain types of surgery (heart and
artery stints, etc.) Now realize that in addition to Medicare, most of
us older guys pay typically $400/month for a Medicare supplementary
policy from a private insurer in addition to what we pay for
Medicare. The rub is this: Our supplementary policy is limited to the
benefits that Medicare allows, nothing else. We have no options, and
alfter the age 65, no other options are available to us. Welcome to
the 'Golden Years'. |
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| Sam West... |
| Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:26 am |
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Guest
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On Oct 3, 12:24 pm, hhc314 <hhc... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
[quote:59ff108b1f]On Oct 1, 8:27 pm, Sam West <smante... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
The Ohio State Buckeye Bullet 2 has hit a new land speed record for
fuel cell vehicles with an exit speed of 304 mph. The land speed
record is still unofficial because fuel cell vehicles are not yet
recognized by FIA or ASN.
...Or NASCAR might I add.
Project like this are fun, but costly, without any providing any
scientific or engineering value in return.
It goes without saying that I am most skeptical about the value of
hydrogen for an automotive fuel for multiple reasons, and which of one
is a "show stopper." As per usual, the devil is in the details which
the promoters of hydrogen as fuel pretend not to exist, and the
production and distribution of hydrogen is the least of the problems.
Because of the temperature-pressure vs. time behavior of hydrogen
explosion, although you can make a conventional reciprocating engine
run on it (with severe levels of thermodynamic inefficiency), but both
the performance and working lifetime of the engine are very sharply
limited. In fact, to burn hydrogen efficiently for powering a
reciprocating engine, you would have to make the cylinders and piston
thermally emulate adiabatic containment. (Ask a physicist or
mechanical engineer about this -- simple thermodynamics.) Ask
yourself: When was the last time you saw a thermally insulative
ceramic engine block with ceramic pistons? That would be the starting
point for a practical hydrogen powered car that would. in daily
service, reach a life expectancy of 10 years.
Sam, other details become much worse and still more limiting.
Hydrogen is a very valuable commodity, but I personally believe it
will never play any role in automotive transportation. Then too, I am
simply a now retired physicist and engineer, so what do I know!
Harry C.
p.s., Sorry Sam, but I couldn't resist. Beside, most of my ire is
focused on what those elected and owned idiots in DC are attempting to
do with this universal health care bill they are trying to sell,
against vast public resistance. The basis for this resistance comes
from us, members of the older generation who directly or indirectly
depend on Medicare for our health benefits. Nobody wants to deny
every US resident from health care, but when you reach age 65, you are
no longer eligible for Blue Cross/Blue Shield membership (this fact is
not widely publicished)...consequently you depend on Medicare and have
a medicare supplementary health care policy. Now here is the gotcha:
The proposed plan calls for the reduction of Medicare benefits (which
is an entitlement that almost all of us have paid into for the
majority of our working lives). This reduction in Medicare benefits
will likely elimite the availability of life saving non-invasive
procedures such as MRI scans and certain types of surgery (heart and
artery stints, etc.) Now realize that in addition to Medicare, most of
us older guys pay typically $400/month for a Medicare supplementary
policy from a private insurer in addition to what we pay for
Medicare. The rub is this: Our supplementary policy is limited to the
benefits that Medicare allows, nothing else. We have no options, and
alfter the age 65, no other options are available to us. Welcome to
the 'Golden Years'.
[/quote:59ff108b1f]
When things fall apart its natural get angry at someone.
My point is the fact that the racing associations still exclude
electric vehicles prove just how little things have changed.
Racing promotes marques. That's something I know a little something
about. Racing promotes ideas with the public. That's why the oil
companies and major automakers organized in the early part of the 20th
century to exclude steam powered automobiles and electrics.
Look up the history of National City Lines. You will see that GM and
Phillips Petroleum got together and created a company to buy up and
run out of business street car and interurban lines that competed with
automobiles throughout the early part of the 20th century.
The point is they jealously guard their turf, and continue to do so
every step along the way.
Mr. Mook told me that when he signed a deal with a major airline to
provide synfuel to airlines on forward contracts as a way to support
his manufacture of large quantities of fuel, he was invited to a
hydrogen session at a public transportation conference in Dallas. On
a tour of the grassy knoll the hydrogen session chairman introduced
Mr. Mook to the head of hydrogen production for Chevron. At this
point the negotiations for synfuel futures was known only to the
airline and the folks at Mokenergy. After the introduction the
Chevron VP asked Mr. Mook, how are you going to get it to the
airlines. Get what to the airlines Mook asked. Jetfuel for your
airline client. Well, these were contracts where cash would offset
normal purchase price ans save the airline money, but Mook didn't tell
the Chevron VP that. He said, there are rules that require you to
transport fuel for other suppliers as part of your agreement to
transport fuel at airports. The Chevron VP replied, only if there is
capacity, and I doubt if there would be capacity for you. Mook didn't
reply. Something to think about the VP said, according to Mook.
Mr. Mook, whom I work with closely in the antenna area, says pipelines
are a way to get hydrogen in large quantity and low cost to stationary
users like coal fired power plants. Converting those plants to
produce synthetic liquid fuels from coal and hydrogen is a way to use
resources America has today to quickly take charge of the energy
business of this planet.
The energy companies won't do a damn thing that helps that vision
along.
Mook has told me the ASME in 2007 adopted a hydrogen pipeline standard
which makes it possible to spec a pipeline and get it built at
reasonable price and time, and most importantly for business, get it
insured.
Despite the fact that industrial pipelines within a single industry
site had built pipelines carrying hydrogen since the 30s, Despite the
fact that NASA has successfully used hydrogen in rockets since the
50s, oil companies dragging their feet for all this time have delayed
the adoption of these standards.
High temperature nuclear reactors have been proposed since the 50s to
produce hydrogen from water at very low cost. And since the 50s the
oil companies have gone out of their way to oppose such efforts. Was
it really an accident that Three Mile Island coincided with the
release of China Syndrome, which coincided with Jimmy Carter's efforts
to push forward with high temperature nuclear reactors? Who knows,
but the coincidences are chilling.
Despite the lip service major energy gives alternative energy, they
will not do anything to undermine the value of the oil coal and
natural gas that remains in the ground. So, development will be slow
if it occurs at all, since lack of progress means rising prices for a
depleting reserve. Besides, expecting them to change their stripes
after a century of doing business a certain way is unlikely in my
view. The fact that the racing associations still exclude electric
vehicles prove just how little things have changed. |
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