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| David Nakamoto... |
 Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:05 pm |
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Quadibloc wrote:
[quote:d6b0dbc6c7]On Jul 2, 1:33 pm, Bert Hyman <b... at (no spam) iphouse.com> wrote:
Any images presented as evidence will be dismissed as more fakes.
True. But the point isn't so much to cure and shut up the hoax
claimants, it's just so that they won't have the power to confuse a
big chunk of the unsophisticated. There will always be people who will
believe any nutty idea, but they're few in number; the people who can
be fooled when a nutty idea sounds plausible enough are far more
numerous.
John Savard
I'm not sure I agree with this, if for no other reason than, if someone[/quote:d6b0dbc6c7]
declares that an image was faked, that the evidence was tainted, then
how is the layperson to trust the evidence?
On a deeper level, this is the central question of epistemology, "How do
you know that what you know is the truth? How to you verify the
evidence?" Cross-checking and coordination of facts is one of the
methods to try and ferret out the truth, but it takes time and detective
work, which most people don't want to, or are incapable (in my humble
opinion) of doing.
Of course, what the conspiracy people fail to notice, is that if they
claim that the evidence was tainted, then ANY evidence they present is
also open to the same charge. If you open up that can-of-worms, you
defeat any chance of finding the Truth.
--- Dave |
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| Dave Typinski... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:03 pm |
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David Nakamoto <david.nakamoto at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote:
[quote:c240825af2]
Quadibloc wrote:
On Jul 2, 1:33 pm, Bert Hyman <b... at (no spam) iphouse.com> wrote:
Any images presented as evidence will be dismissed as more fakes.
True. But the point isn't so much to cure and shut up the hoax
claimants, it's just so that they won't have the power to confuse a
big chunk of the unsophisticated. There will always be people who will
believe any nutty idea, but they're few in number; the people who can
be fooled when a nutty idea sounds plausible enough are far more
numerous.
John Savard
I'm not sure I agree with this, if for no other reason than, if someone
declares that an image was faked, that the evidence was tainted, then
how is the layperson to trust the evidence?
On a deeper level, this is the central question of epistemology, "How do
you know that what you know is the truth? How to you verify the
evidence?" Cross-checking and coordination of facts is one of the
methods to try and ferret out the truth, but it takes time and detective
work, which most people don't want to, or are incapable (in my humble
opinion) of doing.
Of course, what the conspiracy people fail to notice, is that if they
claim that the evidence was tainted, then ANY evidence they present is
also open to the same charge. If you open up that can-of-worms, you
defeat any chance of finding the Truth.
[/quote:c240825af2]
There's a fairly reliable way around the epistimelogical difficulty:
Occam's razor. It doesn't always work--nature is nothing if not an
exercise in exceptions--but short of carrying out all your own
original research, it works better than anything else.
Which is to say, people needn't do all that much detective work. They
simply have to know how to think rationally--which most do quite well
on an individual basis. Get 'em in groups, however, and all bets are
off.
--
Dave
Occam's Chainsaw |
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| Curtis Croulet... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:13 pm |
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[quote:9e09f942fa]Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'.
[/quote:9e09f942fa]
There's nothing in the clip to contradict that it does. Furthermore,
countless astronomers prove it every night.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California |
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| Quadibloc... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:41 pm |
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On Jul 3, 2:49 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
[quote:cb80a8697f]Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'.
[/quote:cb80a8697f]
I don't believe that the day is 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds
long.
So if you're trying to determine longitude by using the position of
the Sun, you had better do it in terms of a 24 hour day. But with
corrections for the Equation of Time.
Use a star, and you don't need to bother with that. So that must
reflect the Earth's real underlying motion.
John Savard |
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| Curtis Croulet... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:53 pm |
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[quote:dcd5508cff]There is nobody that will object to you and everyone else here...etc. ad
nauseum
[/quote:dcd5508cff]
You do realize, don't you, that the clip cuts off mid-way through a
presentation about Harrison's clocks?
You're the only living person who agrees with your alternate reality.
There's a tragedy here. A few years ago, contributors to this newsgroup
discussed telescopes, eyepieces, the possibility of seeing faint nebulae and
galaxies, astro-imaging equipment and techniques, etc. Now it's mostly
dominated by fruitcakes. This is what Usenet has come to. Other groups I
formerly enjoyed have been taken over by egomaniacs and flame wars.
Fortunately, I see knowledgeable, rational people like Mr. Peterson in other
online forums -- just not these Usenet groups.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California |
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| Sam Wormley... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:56 pm |
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oriel36 wrote:
[quote:eca7daeff4]
Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'.
[/quote:eca7daeff4]
It's not a matter of "belief", Gerald. The Earth is measured to
rotate exactly 360° in one sidereal day.
See: http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/SiderealDay.html |
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| oriel36... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:15 pm |
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On Jul 4, 3:56 am, Sam Wormley <sworml... at (no spam) mchsi.com> wrote:
[quote:cdf50cc7a3]oriel36 wrote:
Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'.
It's not a matter of "belief", Gerald. The Earth is measured to
rotate exactly 360° in one sidereal day.
See:http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/astronomy/SiderealDay.html
[/quote:cdf50cc7a3]
..
It being Independence day,who is free to say that the Equatorial
Earth will turn today 69.17 miles for every 4 minutes making an
entire 24901.5 mile rotation in 24 hours where 1 degree of
geographical separation represents 4 minutes of clock time.It is those
delightful histories that pop up that are making the difference some
detailed like the Huygen's treatise and others more informal such the
reasons behind the creation of timezones for mail and train schedules
-
http://www.grand-illusions.com/articles/longitude/page03.shtml
Sidereal time,like timezones,is a wonderful convenience based on the
timekeeping 24 hour architecture in tandem with its 365/366 day
calendar extension however it is a terrible mistake to believe it
contains information on the Earth's shape and rotational
characteristics which belongs to the core 24 hour/360 degree
architecture.Setting aside the complexities which create the 24 hour
average and then the use of this average to act as a 'constant' for
daily rotation,it all rests on restoring the proper references for
daily and orbital motions in terms of the 24 hour average and the
365/366 calendar system out of the raw planetary dynamics which create
the daily and annual cycles.
I will restate this one more time - if you believe in a value other
than 24 hours for rotation of the Earth as a simple fact with a vast
technical and historical reasoning in support,it is the astronomical
equivalent to denying that men landed on the lunar surface for that
always brings out a repulsive reaction that somebody could diminish a
human achievement.A small group of people cannot maintain a 'sidereal
time vs solar time' hoax as the history of clocks ,longitude,human
adventure and the work of the great astronomers sprouts up through
imaging and these little gems of history which show how humans adapt
to the flexibility which the 24 hour/360 degree architecture allows -
http://www.grand-illusions.com/articles/longitude/page03.shtml
The choice is not mine to turn this around from a tragedy into a
triumph,the stream of history which shows the cruelty directed towards
a Harrison or a Wegener,the slowness in adopting things like Calendar
reform or correcting the Piltdown man hoax belongs to that same dark
gloom which you and everyone here,at least presently, casts on the
common history based on the simple fact for daily rotation.Nobody is a
failure should they make a small or a large contribution to the common
history of human achievement in this matter for independence is not
always about physical bravery and courage. |
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| Michael Toms... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:44 pm |
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"Curtis Croulet" <calypte at (no spam) **NO**SPAM**verizon.net> wrote in message
news:yuz3m.725$P5.138 at (no spam) nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
[quote:a73b0c0109]There is nobody that will object to you and everyone else here...etc. ad
nauseum
You do realize, don't you, that the clip cuts off mid-way through a
presentation about Harrison's clocks?
You're the only living person who agrees with your alternate reality.
There's a tragedy here.
[/quote:a73b0c0109]
The tragedy here is replying to that idiot and especially in an OP that has
nothing to do with this. |
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| Curtis Croulet... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:16 pm |
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[quote:8190825524]The tragedy here is replying to that idiot and especially in an OP that
has nothing to do with this.
[/quote:8190825524]
True. For me there's a certain wicked fun in replying to him, though.
"Every time I think I'm out, they pull me back in!" ("they" = Mr. Oriel).
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California |
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| Chris.Bee... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:15 pm |
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On Jul 4, 4:53 am, "Curtis Croulet" <calypte at (no spam) **NO**SPAM**verizon.net>
wrote:
[quote:05df6a812f]
There's a tragedy here. A few years ago, contributors to this newsgroup
discussed telescopes, eyepieces, the possibility of seeing faint nebulae and
galaxies, astro-imaging equipment and techniques, etc. Now it's mostly
dominated by fruitcakes. This is what Usenet has come to. Other groups I
formerly enjoyed have been taken over by egomaniacs and flame wars.
Fortunately, I see knowledgeable, rational people like Mr. Peterson in other
online forums -- just not these Usenet groups.
--
Curtis Croulet
Temecula, California
[/quote:05df6a812f]
I believe that s.a.a started going downhill when discussion here
centred heavily around obscenely expensive optics and equipment. The
feeling of exclusion where the majority were not able to afford a box
full of kilobuck eyepieces or large aperture Apos was almost palpable.
Serious amateur astronomy has now returned to its late 18th-19th
century roots. Only the professional classes (and lawyers) can now
afford the necessary equipment. The rest of us are just big kids
playing with our Chinese (slave labour) made toys. Add together the
"entry level" kit of a Paramount or big AP, a Ritchey-Chretién or 16"+
Schmidt Cass and some serious imaging equipment and you have excluded
a lot of people. Even the solar instruments become ridiculously
expensive as apertures increase to useful levels of resolution.
Perhaps they should just take the amateur out of s.a._? s.a.a is on
the decline otherwise these trolls would not enjoy the exposure they
do presently. Is a "parrot" really any better than a troll? |
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| Dave Typinski... |
| Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:42 pm |
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Quadibloc <jsavard at (no spam) ecn.ab.ca> wrote:
[quote:3fde10bce5]
On Jul 3, 2:49 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:
Still believe the Earth turns through 360 degrees in 'sidereal time'.
I don't believe that the day is 23 hours, 56 minutes, and 4 seconds
long.
So if you're trying to determine longitude by using the position of
the Sun, you had better do it in terms of a 24 hour day. But with
corrections for the Equation of Time.
Use a star, and you don't need to bother with that. So that must
reflect the Earth's real underlying motion.
[/quote:3fde10bce5]
Maybe he figures nobody ever did celestial navigation at night.
--
Dave |
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| Chris L Peterson... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:59 am |
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On Sat, 4 Jul 2009 02:15:59 -0700 (PDT), "Chris.Bee" <chris.b at (no spam) mail.dk>
wrote:
[quote:89960de6a2]I believe that s.a.a started going downhill when discussion here
centred heavily around obscenely expensive optics and equipment. The
feeling of exclusion where the majority were not able to afford a box
full of kilobuck eyepieces or large aperture Apos was almost palpable.
Serious amateur astronomy has now returned to its late 18th-19th
century roots. Only the professional classes (and lawyers) can now
afford the necessary equipment.
[/quote:89960de6a2]
Equipment oriented astronomy: fine telescopes, cameras, etc, has never
been cheaper. Astronomy is one of the least expensive hobbies I know of.
Most people I know who are doing it are spending far less than other
people I know with much more common hobbies.
_________________________________________________
Chris L Peterson
Cloudbait Observatory
http://www.cloudbait.com |
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| oriel36... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:05 am |
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On Jul 4, 9:49 pm, Skywise <i... at (no spam) oblivion.nothing.com> wrote:
[quote:f84bfd04bc]David Nakamoto <david.nakam... at (no spam) verizon.net> wrote in news:2Es3m.633$P5.214
at (no spam) nwrddc02.gnilink.net:
On a deeper level, this is the central question of epistemology, "How do
you know that what you know is the truth? How to you verify the
evidence?" Cross-checking and coordination of facts is one of the
methods to try and ferret out the truth, but it takes time and detective
work, which most people don't want to, or are incapable (in my humble
opinion) of doing.
Education. Specifically, education regarding rational thinking.
People are not taught HOW to think. Using logic and reason does
not come naturally to most people. But with such an anti-science
stance by many groups, it's gonna be hard to teach folks these
"(not so) common sense" skills.
We could very well be on the verge of a new Dark Ages.
[/quote:f84bfd04bc]
I got news for you,with a little bit of effort and the sheer
resilience of Western civilisation,we may just manage to escape a
nightmare which all of you are a part of.
Not a single one of you can state with certainty that the Earth is
round and rotating in any meaningful way,it is some sort of mass
indoctrination that I cannot fathom for what group of people can
manage to inverted the references for daily and orbital motion to
arrive at a conclusion which may look right but isn't.
I have read with horror how the 'sidereal time' people operated in the
most repulsive way,uncaring people with no goodness and at one time it
took a king to put your kind in its place -
http://books.google.com/books?id=8roAAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=memoirs+trait&ei=vW5PSvqUA4qsywTZ-aTmAg
How,for goodness sake,can so many people act in unison to destroy a
basic astronomical fact which has a definite reasoning behind it and
unmeasureable good consequences ?.Is there not one person here who has
the basic goodness to know that a race who can't tell how long it
takes the Earth to turn once with all the technical and historical
data is in deep,deep trouble ?.
[quote:f84bfd04bc]Brian
--http://www.skywise711.com- Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ:http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions":http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?[/quote:f84bfd04bc] |
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| palsing... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 11:53 am |
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On Jul 4, 2:05 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger... at (no spam) gmail.com> asked:
Is there not one person here who has
[quote:38e848729e]the basic goodness to know that a race who can't tell how long it
takes the Earth to turn once with all the technical and historical
data is in deep,deep trouble ?.
[/quote:38e848729e]
No, not one person.
It looks more and more like you are the smartest person in the world,
and the only one who can possibly see things the way they really
are... NOT.
Frames, frames, frames... if you can't understand them, you are
sunk... so... you are sunk.
However, I know several 5th graders who could show you... |
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| oriel36... |
| Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 12:37 pm |
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On Jul 4, 10:53 pm, palsing <pals... at (no spam) harris.com> wrote:
[quote:2672b82069]On Jul 4, 2:05 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger... at (no spam) gmail.com> asked:
Is there not one person here who has
the basic goodness to know that a race who can't tell how long it
takes the Earth to turn once with all the technical and historical
data is in deep,deep trouble ?.
No, not one person.
It looks more and more like you are the smartest person in the world,
and the only one who can possibly see things the way they really
are... NOT.
Frames, frames, frames... if you can't understand them, you are
sunk... so... you are sunk.
However, I know several 5th graders who could show you...
[/quote:2672b82069]
There is nothing remotely close to the scale of this tragedy where not
a single person can state clearly that the Earth turns once in 24
hours and the reasoning behind it.
http://books.google.com/books?id=8roAAAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=memoirs+trait&ei=vW5PSvqUA4qsywTZ-aTmAg
The description by Harrison of how clocks work with the daily cycle as
the Earth rotates to noon from page 91 onwards is so simple,even
omitting the Equation of Time correction,that to see my fellow human
beings do everything in their power to obscure what is basically the
most basic fact linking shape and rotation far exceeds the cruel
treatment of Harrison himself and extends the cruelty to the entire
discipline of astronomy.
What can any race of people possibly gain from distorting the
reasoning which links an astronomer such as Huygens to the inventor
that is Harrison through the references that link daily rotation to
the Sun -
"Draw a Meridian line upon a floor and then hang two plummets, each by
a small thred or wire, directly over the said Meridian, at the
distance of some 2. feet or more one from the other, as the smalness
of the thred will admit. When the middle of the Sun (the Eye being
placed so, as to bring both the threds into one line) appears to be in
the same line exactly ( you are then immediately to set the Watch, not
precisely to the hour of 12. but by so much less, as is the Aequation
of the day by the Table."
http://www.xs4all.nl/~adcs/Huygens/06/kort-E.html
This nightmare of indifference must surely represent some type of
situation which our race has not seen before insofar as were a man to
propose that the Earth is flat by looking out his window,nobody would
pay attention to his views on important matters.You,as 'sidereal time'
proponents do much the same thing with not a hope of matching the
distances in the table with time and geographical separation -
http://www.ncgia.ucsb.edu/education/curricula/giscc/units/u014/tables/table02.html
John Harrison had the authority of the King behind him and still these
astrologers persisted in trying to wreck the achievement of this man
and his industry which amounts to an 18th century one man version of
NASA.Today there is no authority in existence,none ! |
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