On Jul 31, 6:49 pm, Garrison Hilliard <skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org> wrote:
Creation Musuem Shows Off New Attractions

Correct me if I'm wrong. But you are saying that creationists are
stupid and you're smart. You're smart because you believe that out of
a vat of chemicals life emerged.Life that is more complicated than
anything that man has ever created. And you claim that naturedunnit
when a scientist cannot create life from scratch yet. And we're
expected to believe you?

From: garrison
To: skeptix at (no spam) lists.opn.org
Subject: FOLKS, WE HAVE A LIVE ONE!
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:39:22 -0400

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:26:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

On Jul 31, 6:49 pm, Garrison Hilliard <skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org> wrote:
Creation Musuem Shows Off New Attractions

Correct me if I'm wrong. But you are saying that creationists are
stupid and you're smart. You're smart because you believe that out of
a vat of chemicals life emerged.Life that is more complicated than
anything that man has ever created. And you claim that naturedunnit
when a scientist cannot create life from scratch yet. And we're
expected to believe you?

YES!


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http://www.lists.opn.org/mailman/listinfo/skeptix_lists.opn.org

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:26:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

On Jul 31, 6:49 pm, Garrison Hilliard <skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org> wrote:
Creation Musuem Shows Off New Attractions

Correct me if I'm wrong. But you are saying that creationists are
stupid and you're smart. You're smart because you believe that out of
a vat of chemicals life emerged.Life that is more complicated than
anything that man has ever created. And you claim that naturedunnit
when a scientist cannot create life from scratch yet. And we're
expected to believe you?

YES!

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 6:39 AM, Garrison Hilliard <garri... at (no spam) efn.org
wrote:

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:26:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

On Jul 31, 6:49 pm, Garrison Hilliard <skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org> wrote:
Creation Musuem Shows Off New Attractions

Correct me if I'm wrong. But you are saying that creationists are
stupid and you're smart. You're smart because you believe that out of
a vat of chemicals life emerged.Life that is more complicated than
anything that man has ever created. And you claim that naturedunnit
when a scientist cannot create life from scratch yet. And we're
expected to believe you?

YES!

No. You are not expected to believe him. You are expected to know how
to develop a repertoire of deductive abilities to look at the world
critically, collect information and come to your own conclusions. If
you choose faith, so be it, but don't do it based on what someone
says.

Why he exclaims with such an emphatic YES is what I'd ask though. Can
you do that and move past your own limiting beliefs and cultural brain
imprints?

The ancient Hebrew Rabi the RAMBAM (Rabi something something, my
apologies)

doesn't have to explain himself. It is his faith and that's that.
Putting that aside he was willing to discuss anything to see where his
research gets him whether he likes the results ot not--many of his
books were banned although he is still one of the most appreciated in
Judaism. He was a smart believer, and I wouldn't look down at him even
if I was at his caliber of thought.

However, taking some ideology or faith BLINDLY, be it the fad of the
month, some self development workshop, self help method, some
philosophy or any religion--that is blind faith. Even in Judaism which
requires "do, and then listen" blind faith is discouraged, as I showed
above in one example.

Back on topic, what you are expected to do is not dismiss the other's
opinion, and see what you can prove, what makes sense, and why others
believe as they do. Then choose what's right for you. Think
Agnosticism.

The challenge starts in the education system, where whether it is
politically correct to say so or not, we indoctrinate kids to a way of
thinking. That is why we look for the lowest common CONSENSUS (which
changes) on what they should be taught.

Later on in life they can explore and believe what they choose to. But
due to us not being able to face what our education system(s) look
like, we lie to ourselves that our kids can filter sense out of all we
(want) to throw at them, and confuse kids with contradicting beliefs
and facts. We end up giving them nothing.

How do you teach someone in third grade critical thinking? Good
question, and I don't necessarily have the answer--and that only when
I assume that is what should be taught.

i'd make my enemy however, whoever chooses to indoctrinate children to
a belief system which makes them into followers rather than thinkers.
A system of ANY TYPE, be it scientific or religion based.

Not exactly about X vs. Y, but a limited view of my take, non-the-less.

Gadi.

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On Aug 1, 11:05 am, Gadi Evron <skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org> wrote:
The ancient Hebrew Rabi the RAMBAM (Rabi something something, my
apologies)

Maimonodes (sp) and I wouldn't call him ancient. Author of _Guide to
the Perplexed_

Rabi Moshe Ben-Mimon (RMBM sounds like rambam -- you don't hear the
A's), 1138-1204
Ancient enough.

C'mon Garrison, we can all recognize a cheap set up:
all these questions so conveniently answered by a single "yes!".
Let us welcome JM and encourage him to pose a question that
requires a more complicated answer....like 42, for example.

Chris



From: garrison
To: skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org
Subject: FOLKS, WE HAVE A LIVE ONE!
Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:39:22 -0400

On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:26:47 -0700 (PDT), you wrote:

On Jul 31, 6:49 pm, Garrison Hilliard <skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org> wrote:
Creation Musuem Shows Off New Attractions

Correct me if I'm wrong. But you are saying that creationists are
stupid and you're smart. You're smart because you believe that out of
a vat of chemicals life emerged.Life that is more complicated than
anything that man has ever created. And you claim that naturedunnit
when a scientist cannot create life from scratch yet. And we're
expected to believe you?

YES!

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Skeptix mailing list
Skep... at (no spam) lists.opn.org
http://www.lists.opn.org/mailman/listinfo/skeptix_lists.opn.org

_________________________________________________________________
If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which
combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into
one!http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208
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On Aug 1, 2008, at 15:17: 27, Gadi Evron wrote:

Rabi Moshe Ben-Mimon (RMBM sounds like rambam -- you don't hear the
A's), 1138-1204
Ancient enough.

I love Maimonides. Saw his digs in Cordoba. A bit of a skeptic in his
way, in his time, and within his culture, methinks. Much of what we
call judaism today is entirely dependent upon him.