"Don Kelly"
----------
Horsefeathers!
However you are now admitting that positive strokes exist.

No.It is negative stroke cloud-ground-next cloud. Japanese dicoverd it.
-----------

------------

I am not interesting in details. "The global electric circuit" is enough
for me.
----------
You claim a flaw in the global circuit model but then it is good enough
for you. In other words, you are happier being ignorant. Why?

I am not an meteorologist. For me is enough to know:
1. Earth has excess of electrons
---

3. Voltage is raising when drops rise (Armstrong and Kelvin made such high
voltage generators in XIX century)
----------------------

4. Electrons come back to Earth when a cloud disappear
------

Meteorologist must know more to be able make forecast.

"Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrote news:BaWfk.115014$gc5.20350 at (no spam) pd7urf2no...


So, the group of droplets has a greater capacitance to ground than your
single large drop.

It is the full knowledge about atmospheric electricity.

The original total capacitance of the separated drops depends on their
positions- with respect to each other and with respect to ground or
whatever is being used as a reference- this is something that you have
entirely ignored.

They are details.

You are trying to compare a single large drop with 10 electrons to
a single small drop of 1 electron. and haven't even got the math right.
Meaningless!
I was in a hurry. The 100V is for 1000 drops. But I do not know if the
capacitance of drop is proportional to the surface or to the radius. In
painting is assumed that to surface. But it is also detail.
-------------

. What becomes important in breakdown (, is not the total voltage to
ground but the high fields in the vicinity of this large charge.

Field are math.
----------

---------
You say it is not possible but it has been found by measurements that
there are regions of positive charge not just different amounts of
negative charges. There is theory backed by experiment that gives at
least one mechanism for this. In addition, there is solid data that some
lightning strokes originate in regions of positive charge. I'll stick
with what is known rather than what you say is not possible.

Could you explain the term "regions of positive charge". There are the two
possibilities:
1. On the drops (or ice) is deficit of electrons,
2. The voltage is lower than in adjacent region
----

-------------
The references that I have given are physics and engineering references-
not meteorologists ' terminology. Consider a droplet that is being
swept up and cooled - there is a difference in mobility between the H+
ions and the OH- ions in the drop. Suffice it to say that a supercooled
droplet may suddenly freeze (same as water in a supercooled stream can
suddenly freeze from the bottom) and the outer and lighter shards are +
and are swept upward faster and further than the heavier -ve core.
Whether this is the actual mechanism or some other mechanism occurs -
there do exist regions of positive charge (not less negative charge) - as
you would know if you sat down and read some of the technical literature
with regard to lightning. A review of electrostatics might also help.
In other words take time to learn more about the subject before making
patently incorrect statements.

I have had resently a glance at:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/w54350750g275214/
It is obvious that many terms my be incorect understand by readers.
The most important are:
1. Electrification
2. Negative/positive charging
3. Charge separation
4. Charge generation.

Almost all references are in full agreement with my point of view. It is
time to prepare definitions for the above terms ( "A review of
electrostatics might also help")
Could you start with your proposals?

On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:40:32 +0200 "Szczepan Bia?ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl
wrote:

| I am not an meteorologist. For me is enough to know:
| 1. Earth has excess of electrons
| 2. Electrons migrate up with H2O at fair weather (wet air "destroy" the
| charge of a charged body - dry not)
| 3. Voltage is raising when drops rise (Armstrong and Kelvin made such
high
| voltage generators in XIX century)
| 4. Electrons come back to Earth when a cloud disappear

That's a new one. I hadn't heard that one before. I'll have to add it to
my list of other ones.

If the Earth has an excess of electrons and some of them move away to some
distance, what is it that causes a voltage difference to appear?

FYI, I've been in a location with a clear sky that had more "charge" than
other areas. After noticing my 2m ham antenna on the car was giving me
1/4 inch arcs to the frame of the car, I decided it was best to leave the
area. The sky was clear. By the time I was 4 miles away, the spot I was
at had big cloud starting to billow up from it.

So why that one spot and not another spot in the same clear sky?

However you can't get a positive stroke to ground (which exist) out of
"negative stroke cloud-ground-next cloud" by any twist of illogic.

--
and within each H2O molecule there is one H+ ion for every OH- ion so
both migrate. The problem is that the droplets are essentially neutral so
the net charge is 0. In a storm, there are mechanisms that cause charge
separation. You are hand waving again.

-------------
3. Voltage is raising when drops rise (Armstrong and Kelvin made such
high voltage generators in XIX century)
----------------------
And if you look at these generators, there is a mechanism that puts a
charge on the initially neutral drops. Did you conveniently ignore this?
-------------
4. Electrons come back to Earth when a cloud disappear
------
Lets see, if there is a negatively charged cloud overhead, there will be a
situation where the free electrons in the ground underneath are repelled
leaving a local positive charge.

No cloud and the normal distribution returns. Note that your statement 4 is
in contradiction with your implications in statement 1.

-------------

. What becomes important in breakdown (, is not the total voltage to
ground but the high fields in the vicinity of this large charge.

Field are math.
----------
Again you are wrong.
A field is a region of influence-no more, no less. If you stand in front
of a thermal source, you are influences - thermal field. If you step off a
cliff, you may be terminally influenced by gravity. This influence is
real, not a mathematical abstraction. Mathematics is the simply the most
appropriate language for quantitative and qualitative description of a
given reality.

---------
---------
You say it is not possible but it has been found by measurements that
there are regions of positive charge not just different amounts of
negative charges. There is theory backed by experiment that gives at
least one mechanism for this. In addition, there is solid data that some
lightning strokes originate in regions of positive charge. I'll stick
with what is known rather than what you say is not possible.

My proposal is that you read the available literature, including anything
that you can get that is written by Umans and, as a precurser for this ,
start with a good text dealing with electrostatics. Take note of the
actual recorded information and data that is available. This is all that I
ask of you. It is a lot as some of the factors are not trivial.

When you have done this - and actually know what you are talking about,
come back.

"Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrote news:eCegk.80623$kx.31119 at (no spam) pd7urf3no...


However you can't get a positive stroke to ground (which exist) out of
"negative stroke cloud-ground-next cloud" by any twist of illogic.

Here are details: http://plaza.ufl.edu/rakov/ICLP2000/positive1.16.pdf

--
and within each H2O molecule there is one H+ ion for every OH- ion so
both migrate. The problem is that the droplets are essentially neutral so
the net charge is 0. In a storm, there are mechanisms that cause charge
separation. You are hand waving again.

You are a victim of terminology. The surface of the Earth and all
suspension in the air has excess of electrons. Each electron emited from
earth is immediately arounded by H2O. So in the air are aggregates not
molecules.

-------------
3. Voltage is raising when drops rise (Armstrong and Kelvin made such
high voltage generators in XIX century)
----------------------
And if you look at these generators, there is a mechanism that puts a
charge on the initially neutral drops. Did you conveniently ignore this?
-------------
4. Electrons come back to Earth when a cloud disappear
------
Lets see, if there is a negatively charged cloud overhead, there will be
a situation where the free electrons in the ground underneath are
repelled leaving a local positive charge.

You are victim of terminology. Positive/negative in all references means
less/more. Current flows from + to -. No matter if it is +/- 100 or 1000
and 800V.
On all sketches small pluses indicate places to which electrons flow.They
flow from regions with small minuses.
In electrostatics small pluses means deficit of electrons.

"the free electrons in the ground underneath are repelled" but an excess
remains.

No cloud and the normal distribution returns. Note that your statement 4
is in contradiction with your implications in statement 1.

It seems that you are able to understand the nuance of terminology. Try
it.
S*

"Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> napisa³ w wiadomo¶ci
news:bRfgk.118083$gc5.28436 at (no spam) pd7urf2no...
-------------

. What becomes important in breakdown (, is not the total voltage to
ground but the high fields in the vicinity of this large charge.

Field are math.
----------
Again you are wrong.
A field is a region of influence-no more, no less. If you stand in front
of a thermal source, you are influences - thermal field. If you step off
a cliff, you may be terminally influenced by gravity. This influence is
real, not a mathematical abstraction. Mathematics is the simply the most
appropriate language for quantitative and qualitative description of a
given reality.

So we have the two kind of field. Electric field (math one) and the field
of electric charge.
-----------

Up to now we have many theories (Faraday, Ampere, Gauss, Weber, Maxwell,
Lorentz, Jefimienko and so on). But we do not know the reality. We do not
know how high is absolute Earth voltage and if in air is excess of
electrons

or lack
Do you know it?
---------

---------
---------
You say it is not possible but it has been found by measurements that
there are regions of positive charge not just different amounts of
negative charges. There is theory backed by experiment that gives at
least one mechanism for this. In addition, there is solid data that
some lightning strokes originate in regions of positive charge. I'll
stick with what is known rather than what you say is not possible.

As I have mentioned early now is a mess in terminology. My proposal is to
use on clouds sketches colors instead of +/-. The same method as in
mountains map. The higher the stronger color. Now we have only the two
"colors" plus and minus. A huge storm cloud has many levels of voltage.
Description with many colors would be easy to understand for all.
------

My proposal is that you read the available literature, including anything
that you can get that is written by Umans and, as a precurser for this ,
start with a good text dealing with electrostatics. Take note of the
actual recorded information and data that is available. This is all that
I ask of you. It is a lot as some of the factors are not trivial.

When you have done this - and actually know what you are talking about,
come back.

Try understand the nuance of the terminology and next come back. It will
be easy to you. Start from Clive Saunders statement:
"Wordwide thunderstorm activity is responsible for maintaining a weak
negative charge on the Earth's surface and a corresponding positive charge
in the atmosphere."
At a fair weather is current of about 2x10-12 amperes/meter2. Electron
migrate up day after day. What is the result - excess or lack?
You must find the ansfer what exactly means the term "positive charge" in
very sophisticated references.
----

Do you know it?
---------
No- the absolute earth voltage is a chimera. The earth voltage is a
potential difference between the earth and some reference point. We don't
have an absolute reference point and if we take one such as a point at
infinity,

Try understand the nuance of the terminology and next come back. It will
be easy to you. Start from Clive Saunders statement:
"Wordwide thunderstorm activity is responsible for maintaining a weak
negative charge on the Earth's surface and a corresponding positive
charge in the atmosphere."
At a fair weather is current of about 2x10-12 amperes/meter2. Electron
migrate up day after day. What is the result - excess or lack?
You must find the ansfer what exactly means the term "positive charge" in
very sophisticated references.
----
I have no problem with either of the above information that I saw a long
time ago. I do have a problem with your interpretations and
extrapolations that defy the actual data.

----------------------------
"Szczepan Bia³ek" <sz.bialek at (no spam) wp.pl> wrote in message
news:g5s47l$u8$1 at (no spam) node1.news.atman.pl...

"Don Kelly" <dhky at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrote news:eCegk.80623$kx.31119 at (no spam) pd7urf3no...


However you can't get a positive stroke to ground (which exist) out of
"negative stroke cloud-ground-next cloud" by any twist of illogic.

Here are details: http://plaza.ufl.edu/rakov/ICLP2000/positive1.16.pdf

Thank you for the reference. Please note that this article considers
positive, negative and bipolar strokes. It doesn't say what you claim.

By the way, I have met, and knew, professionally, one of the authors
cited.(Janischewski) who, I admit freely has more knowledge of lightning
than I have. He had criticism of the Alberta data- not the polarity
information but the accuracy of the current magnitudes and had
suggestions for improvement. I was not familiar with the bi-polar aspect
but that doesn't support your position- nor does the rest of the paper.
As for the rest of what you say, there is a minim of truth therein.
However, you simply claim that there is an excess of electrons on the
surface of the earth. Whether or not this is true is not of concern when
you consider earth-cloud relationships. Given that your contention is true
then one can consider that some regions are more or less negative (with
respect to ???). With respect to Mount Everest, then all locations on
earth are more or less negative. So what reference do we consider as 0 on
our scale? Some unknown location in far space? The ionosphere?

If, as we generally do, we use earth as the reference, then some regions
in clouds are positive and some are negative with respect to earth.

The direction of electron flow (ignoring the real possibility of positive
ion movement) in any current to earth will be dependent upon this.

You have now come from trying to express positive discharges to earth as
part of a negative cloud- earth-cloud discharge to trying to produce your
own terminology that is not defined for all but varies as it suits your
purpose.

"Don Kelly"

Do you know it?
---------
No- the absolute earth voltage is a chimera. The earth voltage is a
potential difference between the earth and some reference point. We don't
have an absolute reference point and if we take one such as a point at
infinity,

You are victim of math. Zero voltage is on the body where no free
electrons. The Earths is a body and a drop also.
------------

Try understand the nuance of the terminology and next come back. It will
be easy to you. Start from Clive Saunders statement:
"Wordwide thunderstorm activity is responsible for maintaining a weak
negative charge on the Earth's surface and a corresponding positive
charge in the atmosphere."
At a fair weather is current of about 2x10-12 amperes/meter2. Electron
migrate up day after day. What is the result - excess or lack?
You must find the ansfer what exactly means the term "positive charge"
in very sophisticated references.
----
I have no problem with either of the above information that I saw a long
time ago. I do have a problem with your interpretations and
extrapolations that defy the actual data.

The fundamental data are always the same. Electrons migrate up and without
activity of clouds all would be above your head (as the excess) in a short
time. They come back in areas under clouds. The details are investigated
by meteorologist.

------------
Bull: Use the world wide definition of voltage or potential difference.
Voltage is always measured with respect to some other point.

So far, all that I have heard from you is a distortion of some facts and
the ignoring of other facts and the ability to weave and bobble around and
change direction (and, it appears, definitions) at will. Anything you
can't handle appears to be "details". The whole subject is, apparently,
details.

I would be happy to argue (win or lose -as it is a learning experience)
with somebody competent and knowledgable . That is not the case here.

I can't waste any more time on this thread,

 "Don Kelly"
Bull: Use the world wide definition of voltage or potential difference.
Voltage is always measured with respect to some other point.

We need absolute potential. A technical one. A neutral body is such. See
Rowland effect:http://www.edumedia-sciences.com/a190_l2-rowland-s-disk.html

 "Don Kelly" <d... at (no spam) shaw.ca> wrotenews:Abzfk.8941$nD.5060 at (no spam) pd7urf1no...
Quote:
"During thunderstorms a charge separation takes place in a cloud by a
process which is the subject of several theories but is still not fully
understood....Usually positive charges drift to the upper layer of a cloud
and the bulk of the cloud becomes negatively charged"

What means "positive charges"?

You can see that at fair weather electrons migrate up (small arrows
represets currents - electrons move in opposite direction). They are atached
to H2O. The voltage is low because the aggregates of H2O molecules are
small.
After condensation the voltage arises and the slectrons are send to places
where the voltage is lower.

The sentence: "Present measurements indicate that an average of almost 1
ampere of current flows into the stratosphere during the active phase of a
typical thunderstorm" cannot be true. Storm cloud send electrons in all
directions.e Global Electric Circuit

I am not interesting in details.

"Don Kelly"
------------
Bull: Use the world wide definition of voltage or potential difference.
Voltage is always measured with respect to some other point.

We need absolute potential. A technical one. A neutral body is such.See
Rowland effect:
http://www.edumedia-sciences.com/a190_l2-rowland-s-disk.html

So far, all that I have heard from you is a distortion of some facts and
the ignoring of other facts and the ability to weave and bobble around
and change direction (and, it appears, definitions) at will. Anything you
can't handle appears to be "details". The whole subject is, apparently,
details.

Phil wrote: "Another thing I have been wondering about is treating the
Earth as a
OPFHG."

Many people try to analyse winds and ocean currents. But they often
assume that the air is positivelly charged in electrostatic sense. They
should know that on the surface of the Earth and in the air is an excess
of electrons. The "details" are for meteorogists.

I would be happy to argue (win or lose -as it is a learning experience)
with somebody competent and knowledgable . That is not the case here.

Yes. I am not a meteorologist. In textbooks on Electrostatics I have only
on page about "Global circuit" and there is wrote that clouds are the
"high voltage generators". Of course there is all about the Earth electric
field
--------

Is a water drop charged? Since, inherently it has as many H+ as OH- ions,
it is neutral. Can it pick up or lose electrons- certainly. Put the drop
in an electric field and it will be polarized without any change in the
number of electrons or positive ions.

Provide some means to extract or add electrons and it is no longer
neutral. A cat and a glass rod are both
neutral but stroke the cat with the rod and one will gain electrons from
the other- no longer neutral.

Of course, the stroking involves mechanical work as producing a potential
difference involves work- just as work is done to separate charge in a
storm.

I have learned something, but not from you but in checking some references
so I have gained.

Bye and don't bother with a reply.

--

Don Kelly dhky at (no spam) shawcross.ca
remove the X to answer