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Science Forum Index » Statistics - Math Forum » A * Titans * fight II: Jack Tomsky versus R. A....
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| Luis A. Afonso... |
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:08 am |
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Finally an agreement was reached:
*** IN WHAT CONCERNS TWO CONTINUOUS PARAMETERS the /two-tailed) test hypotheses is unable to state they are equal, even though the test falls outside the Rejection Region. The most we can attain is that *** there are not sufficient evidence, given the data (and gauged by the significance level), to reject the Null Hypotheses (HOW MANY TIMES I WROTE THIS HERE; ALWAYS DISAPROVED BY THE IMBECILE DUO?).
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator destroyer] |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 7:43 am |
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Quote: Finally an agreement was reached:
*** IN WHAT CONCERNS TWO CONTINUOUS PARAMETERS the
/two-tailed) test hypotheses is unable to state they
are equal, even though the test falls outside the
Rejection Region. The most we can attain is that ***
there are not sufficient evidence, given the data
(and gauged by the significance level), to reject the
Null Hypotheses (HOW MANY TIMES I WROTE THIS HERE;
ALWAYS DISAPROVED BY THE IMBECILE DUO?).
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator destroyer]
Afonso's own formulas say otherwise. His confidence intervals on D = |p1 - p2| are equal to [0,0] whenever p1^ = p2^.
I didn't make up those formulas. They are the creation of Luis Amaral Afonso.
Jack (moderator) |
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| Luis A. Afonso... |
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:59 am |
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I will not claim as THE IMBECILE DUO. Jack Tomsky, John Smith, that the Null Hypotheses can be proved then ACCEPTED: My scientific education, intelligence and professional carrier doesn’t allow to say such a BARBARIOUS thing.
I left such thoughts on the behalf to the U S. genius Stanford University produces every year.
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator destroyer] |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 9:10 am |
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Quote: I will not claim as THE IMBECILE DUO. Jack Tomsky,
John Smith, that the Null Hypotheses can be proved
then ACCEPTED: My scientific education, intelligence
and professional carrier doesn’t allow to say such a
BARBARIOUS thing.
I left such thoughts on the behalf to the U S. genius
Stanford University produces every year.
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator destroyer]
Decision-making in statistical inference does not require proof. That's why we have type I and type II errors, standard errors for parameter estimators, probabilities of misclassification, etc. If proof was required in order to make a decision, there would be no statistical inference.
The Afonso equations showed that under certain conditions, the confidence interval for the parameter D is [0,0]. In that particular case, he is claiming that the null hypothesis is proved since D is known to be zero without error.
Jack (moderator) |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:18 am |
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Quote: Your example (concerning the test of proportions)
cannot, absolutely, be taken in account. It’s WRONG
__1__BECAUSE ONE CANNOT DRAW CONCLUSIONS FROM A ***
APPROXIMATE DISTRIBUTION ***: The problem is Binomial
not Normal at all.
__2__The occurrence |p1^ - p2^| = 0 is very rare even
though the samples have moderately large sizes.
THEN:
___One cannot (in general) state that *** WE ACCEPT
THE NULL HYPOTHESES *** (this is the exclusive
property of the IMBECILE DUO). The most we can say
(if so) is
___There is no sufficient evidence to reject the Null
Hypotheses, taking into account the data and gauged
by the significance level.
___The set of values to which ONE CANNOT REJECT THE
NULL HYPOTHESES, H0, being an INTERVAL and the
equality (?) relating H0 a single point IT FOLLOWS
THAT the statement: H0 is true, should be taken as an
illusory one.
Any other FANTASIES THE IMBECILE DUO wants to mislead
the Readers should be promptly forgotten: they are
originated from an error that they do not had way to
explain its soundness, and used some dirty tricks, I
uncover, to derive the impossible, that is, the Null
Hypotheses can be proved true, then acceptable.
One, at last a question remains: What kind of persons
can support a so evident lack of ETHICS?
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator ??? destroyer]
My dirty trick was to use Afonso's own equations and find that when I plug in a particular sample outcome, it results in a confidence interval for D of [0,0].
Jack (moderator) |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:30 am |
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Quote: *** WHERE YOU DID FIND THE SEATEMENT?
Decision-making in statistical inference does not
require proof. That's why we have type I and type II
errors, standard errors for parameter estimators,
probabilities of misclassification, etc. If proof was
required in order to make a decision, there would be
no statistical inference. ***The Afonso equations
showed that under certain conditions, the confidence
interval for the parameter D is [0,0]. In that
particular case, he is claiming that the null
hypothesis is proved since D is known to be zero
without error. Jack (moderator) ***
My response
__1__Only APES need that people repeat (and repeat)
that the * called * my equation* did suppose the
parameters are CONTINUOUS, this is a presuppose
condition – THE IMBECILE DUO DOESN´T HAS (NOBODY HAS)
THE RIGHT TO INFECT MY RESULT applying it to a no
valid condition. THIS IS A COMPLETE UNETHICAL
BEHAVIOR THE IMBECILE DUO IS FERTILE NOBODY YET AMONG
THE READERS TRY TO PUT AN END. The interval [0,0] is
a full WORMSTOMSKY NONSENSE.
The sample estimates p1^ and p2^ are not continuous, but discrete. They have a positive probability of being equal. When I plug that case into Afonso's equations, I get the confidence interval for D of [0,0].
Quote: __2__THE IMBECILE DUO invent ghost theorems as long
as they think persuasive towards beginners leading to
support their FANTASIES: not to reject the Null
Hypotheses is a DECISION in its own merit. This means
that * THE STATE OF THE UNIVERSE * varied so little
that as long as one can know by data one are FORBIDEN
TO STATE THAT A CHANGE WAS OCCURRED.
The Afonso equations were not invented by a ghost, but by Afonso. I was simply checking to see what the results are in practice. If you don't like the results, maybe the equations are wrong.
Quote: __3__I had shown unmistakably that the statement THE
IMBECILE DUO I so found: to accept the null
hypotheses is so fantastic that even them TWIST,
TWIST and TURN in order to repeat the complete
BRUNDLE IT IS in Statistical terms.. They, a long
time ago, are completely aware.
Afonso doesn't believe in accepting the null hypothesis if the probability of a type II error is positive.
Jack (moderator) |
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| Luis A. Afonso... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:27 am |
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Wormtomsky said:
*** The sample estimates p1^ and p2^ are not continuous, but discrete. They have a positive probability of being equal. When I plug that case into Afonso's equations, I get the confidence interval for D of [0,0].***
***************************
My response:
If X= bin (p1, n1), Y=bin(p2, n2)
The parameter space is DISCONTINUOUS:
___p1^ = j / n1, j= 0,1,2, …, n1
___p2^ = k/ n2, k= 0,1,2, …, n2
Conclusion
You are supporting me: in your mind you think that you are correcting my point of view. You should conclude that you are not allowed to treat (as you did) the difference on Binomial Proportions as it was a Continuous Parameters problem.
Furthermore
For that difference space are such that
_____D (j, k) = [j*n2 - k*n1] / (n1*n2)
_____ j = 0,1,2,…, n1
_____ k= 0,1,2,…, n2
The space consists in the * rectangle* of n1+1 times n2+1 isolated points.
BUT THIS HAS NOTHONG TO DO WITH THE PROBLEM I POSTED dealing with continuous parameters as they are the mean, the standard deviation of normal populations: WHERE THE CONFIDENCE INTERVALS ISSUED FROM THE TEST STATISTICS DOESN`T DEGENERATE IN A SING;E POINT AND CONSEQUENTTLY THE NULL HYPOTHESES CANNOT BE PROVED TRUE, as all elementary text-books do not fail to note.
Your statement that *there are a positive probability of being equal* is a vicious and worthless one by two reasons
__A__All person is aware (unnecessary o point out),
__B__It is (as usual your comments) OUT OF CONTEXT
NOT SAYING UN IMPORTANT THING: the probability to have the difference p1^-p2^ = 0 are monotonically decreasing to ZERO as the sample sizes grow. AND FROM A APPROXIMATIVE TECHNIQUE (Binomial to Normal) INE ARE UNABLE TO DEAW CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE POINT:UNDER DISCUSSION, if , for example the equation |p1 - p2| is really attained OR NOT.
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator ??? destroyer] |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:26 am |
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Quote: Wormtomsky said:
*** The sample estimates p1^ and p2^ are not
continuous, but discrete. They have a positive
probability of being equal. When I plug that case
into Afonso's equations, I get the confidence
interval for D of [0,0].***
***************************
My response:
If X= bin (p1, n1), Y=bin(p2, n2)
The parameter space is DISCONTINUOUS:
___p1^ = j / n1, j= 0,1,2, …, n1
___p2^ = k/ n2, k= 0,1,2, …, n2
The parameter space is continuous with 0<=p1,p2<=1. It is the sample proportions which are discrete since they can take only a finite number of possible values.
The sample proportions p1^ and p2^ are in the sample space, not the parameter space.
Quote:
Conclusion
You are supporting me: in your mind you think that
you are correcting my point of view. You should
conclude that you are not allowed to treat (as you
did) the difference on Binomial Proportions as it was
a Continuous Parameters problem.
Furthermore
For that difference space are such that
_____D (j, k) = [j*n2 - k*n1] / (n1*n2)
_____ j = 0,1,2,…, n1
_____ k= 0,1,2,…, n2
The space consists in the * rectangle* of n1+1 times
n2+1 isolated points.
BUT THIS HAS NOTHONG TO DO WITH THE PROBLEM I POSTED
dealing with continuous parameters as they are the
mean, the standard deviation of normal populations:
WHERE THE CONFIDENCE INTERVALS ISSUED FROM THE TEST
STATISTICS DOESN`T DEGENERATE IN A SING;E POINT AND
CONSEQUENTTLY THE NULL HYPOTHESES CANNOT BE PROVED
TRUE, as all elementary text-books do not fail to
note.
Your statement that *there are a positive probability
of being equal* is a vicious and worthless one by two
reasons
__A__All person is aware (unnecessary o point out),
__B__It is (as usual your comments) OUT OF CONTEXT
NOT SAYING UN IMPORTANT THING: the probability to
have the difference p1^-p2^ = 0 are monotonically
decreasing to ZERO as the sample sizes grow. AND FROM
A APPROXIMATIVE TECHNIQUE (Binomial to Normal) INE
ARE UNABLE TO DEAW CONCLUSIONS ABOUT THE POINT:UNDER
DISCUSSION, if , for example the equation |p1 - p2|
is really attained OR NOT.
I'm just applying the formulas you gave. You don't seem to like the results your formulas give.
We are dealing with finite sample sizes from two binomials. Therefore, there is a positive probability that the sample proportions p1^ and p2^ are equal. There is nothing vicious about it.
Instead of showing confusion between parameter spaces and sample spaces, between continuous and discrete quantities, and between acceptance decisions and proof, just check out the exact solution to the problem in
Tomsky, J.L., "Statistical comparison of two failure rates from either binomial or negative binomial sampling", presented at the Seventh SIAM Conference on Discrete Mathematics, 1994.
The paper derives (randomized) uniformly most powerful unbiased tests as well as uniformly most accurate unbiased confidence intervals for
theta = p1*(1-p2)/[(1-p1)*p2].
Jack (moderator) |
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| Luis A. Afonso... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:37 am |
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Wormtomsky:
You are so * opaque * that you think that the Type II error evaluation says whatever to the problem under discussion: the Null Hypotheses cannot be stated true, or even accepted. I SAID YOU YET THAT THIS ERROR SUPPOSES Ha IS TRUE, A THING THAT YOU OR WHATEVER PERSON IS UNABLE TO STATE by means an HYPOTHESES TEST. (fail to reject Ha when Ha is true).
You have to invent other thing to try to minimize your BLUNDER.
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator ??? destroyer] |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 9:45 am |
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Quote: Wormtomsky:
You are so * opaque * that you think that the Type II
error evaluation says whatever to the problem under
discussion: the Null Hypotheses cannot be stated
true, or even accepted.
This is not what I have said. I've always said that if the sample is in the acceptance region, then the null hypothesis is accepted over the alternative hypothesis. If the sample is in the critical region, then the null hypothesis rejected in favor of the alternative hypothesis.
I SAID YOU YET THAT THIS
Quote: ERROR SUPPOSES Ha IS TRUE, A THING THAT YOU OR
WHATEVER PERSON IS UNABLE TO STATE by means an
HYPOTHESES TEST. (fail to reject Ha when Ha is
true).
You have to invent other thing to try to minimize
your BLUNDER.
I did not invent the Neyman-Pearson framework of hypothesis testing. That occurred before my time.
Jack (moderator) |
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| Luis A. Afonso... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:59 am |
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To see HOW WOEMSTOMSKY IS WRONG in accepting the Null Hypotheses, it´s suffice to take into account what WIKIPEDIA says.
*** If the test statistic is outside the critical region, the only conclusion is that there is not enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis. This is not the same as evidence in favor of the null hypothesis. That we cannot obtain using these arguments, since lack of evidence against a hypothesis is not evidence for it. On this basis, statistical research progresses by eliminating error, not by finding the truth.***
It couldn´be clearer and smashing to WORMTOMSKY!!!
I invite the Readers to find similar material.
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator destroyer] |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:06 pm |
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Quote: To see HOW WOEMSTOMSKY IS WRONG in accepting the Null
Hypotheses, it´s suffice to take into account what
WIKIPEDIA says.
*** If the test statistic is outside the critical
region, the only conclusion is that there is not
enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis. This
is not the same as evidence in favor of the null
hypothesis. That we cannot obtain using these
arguments, since lack of evidence against a
hypothesis is not evidence for it. On this basis,
statistical research progresses by eliminating error,
not by finding the truth.***
It couldn´be clearer and smashing to WORMTOMSKY!!!
I invite the Readers to find similar material.
Luis Amaral Afonso [The moderator destroyer]
A far better quote is from any the 31 papers I published in the literature. I write repeatedly of decisions where the null hypothesis can be accepted. I invite Afonso to use any of my quotes.
Jack |
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| Jack Tomsky... |
Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 11:26 am |
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Quote: DO NOT BELIEVE IN WHAT Jack Tomsky say
From the WEB
__1__"Accepting the null hypothesis" is like
acquitting a defendant. It does NOT prove that the
null hypothesis is true, or that the defendant is
innocent. It means there is a reasonable doubt about
the defendant's guilt. In statistical testing, the
significance level, Type I risk, or alpha risk is the
"reasonable doubt." It is the chance of wrongly
rejecting the null hypothesis when it is true. In
acceptance sampling, it is the producer's risk, or
risk of wrongly rejecting a lot that meets
requirements.
Thanks, Afonso, for proving my point that acceptance of the null hypothesis does not require proof. So in addition to all those quotes and references I had previously given Afonso, he found a new one on his own which shows that it is allowable to accept the null hypothesis. I congratulate Afonso on his research.
Jack (moderator) |
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