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Sir Frederick...

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:46 pm

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IMO qualia are representational illusions. Effected by "indirection" among
low level brain structures. There is no magic there, only a bunch of well organized,
evolved neurons. Just as there is no magic in your computer, there is no
magic in your head.

I also hold that life, including human life is an epiphenomena.
Of course our hubris makes us demand more of the situation
than that. Thus we confabulate many stories to meet that demand.
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See (for links):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
In philosophy of mind, epiphenomenalism, also known as 'Type-E Dualism' is a view according to which some or all mental states are
mere epiphenomena (side-effects or by-products) of physical states of the world. Thus, epiphenomenalism denies that the mind (as in
its states, not its processing) has any causal influence on the body or any other part of the physical world: while mental states
are caused by physical states, mental states do not have any causal influence on physical states. Some versions of epiphenomenalism
claim that all mental states are causally inert, while others claim that only some mental states are causally inert. The latter
version often claims that only those types of mental states that are especially difficult to account for scientifically are
epiphenomenal, such as qualitative mental states (e.g., the sensation of pain).

Background :
One of the earliest views resembling epiphenomenalism was discussed by Thomas Huxley. Huxley (1874) likened mental phenomena to the
whistle on a steam locomotive. However, epiphenomenalism flourished primarily as it found a niche among methodological or scientific
behaviorism. In the early 1900s scientific behaviorists such as Ivan Pavlov, John B. Watson, and B. F. Skinner began the attempt to
uncover laws describing the relationship between stimuli and responses, without reference to inner mental phenomena. Instead of
adopting a form of eliminativism or mental fictionalism, positions that deny that inner mental phenomena exists, a behaviorist was
able to adopt epiphenomenalism in order to allow for the existence of mind. However, by the 1960s, scientific behaviourism met
substantial difficulties and eventually gave way to the cognitive revolution. Participants in that revolution, such as Jerry Fodor,
reject epiphenomenalism and insist upon the causal efficacy of the mind. Fodor even speaks of "epiphobia"—fear that one is becoming
an epiphenomenalist.

However, since the cognitive revolution, there have been several who have argued for a version of epiphenomenalism. These more
recent versions, however, maintain that only the subjective, qualitative aspects of mental states are epiphenomenal. Imagine both
Pierre and a robot eating a cupcake. Unlike the robot, Pierre is conscious of eating the cupcake while the behavior is under way.
This subjective experience is often called a quale (plural qualia), and it describes the private "raw feel" or the subjective
"what-it-is-like" that is the inner accompaniment of many mental states. Thus, while Pierre and the robot are both doing the same
thing, only Pierre has the inner conscious experience.

Frank Jackson (1982), for example, once espoused the following view:

" I am what is sometimes known as a "qualia freak". I think that there are certain features of bodily sensations especially, but
also of certain perceptual experiences, which no amount of purely physical information includes. Tell me everything physical there
is to tell about what is going on in a living brain... you won't have told me about the hurtfulness of pains, the itchiness of
itches, pangs of jealousy....[1] "

According to epiphenomenalism, mental states like Pierre's pleasurable experience—or, at any rate, their distinctive qualia—are just
epiphenomena; they are side-effects or by-products of physical processes in the body. Pierre, according to epiphenomenalism, might
as well be a robot or a zombie, because conscious mental states do not affect his behavior. If Pierre takes a second bite, it is not
caused by his pleasure from the first; If Pierre says, "That was good, so I will take another bite", his speech act is not caused by
the preceding pleasure. The conscious experiences that accompany brain processes are causally impotent.

Arguments for :
A large body of neurophysiological data seems to support epiphenomenalism. Some of the oldest such data is the
Bereitschaftspotential or "readiness potential" in which electrical activity related to voluntary actions can be recorded up to two
seconds before the subject is aware of taking a decision to perform the action. More recently Benjamin Libet et al (1979) have shown
that it can take 0.5 seconds before a stimulus becomes part of conscious experience even though subjects can respond to the stimulus
in reaction time tests within 200 milliseconds. Recent research on the Event Related Potential also shows that conscious experience
does not occur until the late phase of the potential (P3 or later) that occurs 300 milliseconds or more after the event. In
Bregman's Auditory Continuity Illusion, where a pure tone is followed by broadband noise and the noise is followed by the same pure
tone it seems as if the tone occurs throughout the period of noise. This also suggests a delay for processing data before conscious
experience occurs. Norretranders has called the delay "The User Illusion" implying that we only have the illusion of conscious
control, most actions being controlled automatically by non-conscious parts of the brain with the conscious mind relegated to the
role of spectator.

The scientific data seem to support the idea that conscious experience is created by non-conscious processes in the brain (i.e.,
there is subliminal processing that becomes conscious experience). These results have been interpreted to suggest that people are
capable of action before conscious experience of the decision to act occurs. Some argue that this supports epiphenomenalism, since
it shows that the feeling of making a decision to act is actually an epiphenomenon; the action happens before the decision, so the
decision did not cause the action to occur.

Some critical responses :
The philosophical behaviorists (as opposed to scientific behaviourists) reject epiphenomenalism on the grounds that it is, in
Gilbert Ryle's phrase, a "category mistake." Just as there is no Cartesian "ghost in the machine", there are no ghostly events that
accompany behavior in an inner theater. Consciousness belongs not to the category of objects of reference, but rather to the
category of ways of doing things. To be attentive is to do things with focus and care, not for something to be happening in the
ghostly theater that Ryle lampooned as a dualist dogma.

Functionalists chart a different course, accepting that there is a system of mental events mediating stimulus and response, but
asserting that this system is "topic neutral" and capable of being realized in various ways. The topic neutrality of the mind
implies the denial of epiphenomenalism, which, as a kind of property dualism, fixes consciousness as a non-neutral, non-physical
topic.

Eliminative materialists, on the other hand, assert that the concept of mind aims to fix reference to a non-physical topic; so they
disagree with the philosophical behaviorist analysis, as well as the functionalist analysis. Eliminative materialism holds, however,
that this dualistic aim of "folk psychology" is a fatal error built into mental concepts. So it would be better to eliminate the
concept of mind, and concepts implicated in it such as desire and belief, in favor of an emerging neurocomputational account. (A
more moderate eliminativist position would maintain what J. L. Mackie called an error theory, stripping false beliefs away from the
problematic concepts but not eliminating them, leaving intact a legitimate core of meaning.)

Arguments against
Benjamin Libet's results are quoted in favor of epiphenomenalism, but he believes subjects still have a "conscious veto", since the
readiness potential does not invariably lead to an action. In Freedom Evolves, Daniel Dennett argues that the no-free-will
conclusion is based on dubious assumptions about the location of consciousness[page # needed].

Many argue that data such as the Bereitschaftspotential undermine, rather than support, epiphenomenalism. Such experiments rely on
the subject reporting the point in time when conscious experience apparently occurs, which relies on the subject being able to
consciously perform an action, and on conscious experience being effective enough to prompt a response. Such a premise contradicts
epiphenomenalism, which claims that conscious experience has no effects and therefore cannot be measured. Hence, so the argument
goes, any experiment that detects whether or when conscious experience occurs argues strongly against, not for, epiphenomenalism.[2]

Another criticism of epiphenomenalism is that the presence of the theory of epiphenomenalism seems to contradict the very idea. Most
would agree that thinking is a mental process, but, if epiphenomenalism is true, how could someone ever express the idea of
epiphenomenalism? It would be impossible, because this "expressing" would require the banned connection between mind and behavior.
If epiphenomenalism is true and thinking is a mental process, then its truth is ineffable. So in the example above, Pierre cannot
convey his pleasure.

Additionally, many[who?] argue that the history of epiphenomenalism is revealing. It was concocted as a potential solution to a
problem facing dualism: By what mechanism does the mental realm affect the physical? Epiphenomenalism provides an out: The mental
realm simply doesn't affect the physical, so the issue is moot. Because it arose out of an attempt to save another conjecture rather
than by its own merits, epiphenomenalism can be seen as suspiciously motivated.

Green (2003) has argued that epiphenomenalism does not even provide a satisfactory ‘out’ from the problem of interaction posed by
substance dualism. According to Green, epiphenomenalism implies a one-way form of interactionism that is just as hard to conceive of
as the two-way form embodied in substance dualism. If it is a problem how mental events can causally influence physical events, how
is it any less of a problem how physical events can influence mental ones? Green suggests that the assumption that it is less of a
problem may arise from the unexamined belief that physical events have some sort of primacy over mental ones.

If epiphenomenalism is really nothing but a way of rescuing dualism, then the whole issue can be avoided by rejecting dualism. For
instance, if the mind is identical to the brain, it must have the same causal powers as the brain, by Leibniz's law.
See (for links):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism
--
Frederick Martin McNeill
Poway, California, United States of America
mmcneill at (no spam) fuzzysys.com
******************************************
“He who does not bellow out the truth when he knows the truth makes himself the accomplice of liars and forgers.” —Charles Peguy
“The cruelest lies are often told in silence.” —Robert Louis Stevenson
“It matters not how a man dies, but how he lives.” —Dr. Samuel Johnson
“Every human being has, like Socrates, an attendant spirit; and wise are they who obey its signals. If it does not always tell us what to do, it always cautions us what not to do.” —Lydia M. Child
******************************************

Immortalist...

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:46 pm

Guest

On Jun 29, 9:46 pm, Sir Frederick <mmcne... at (no spam) fuzzysys.com> wrote:

Quote:

Since qualia, or the subjective sense or feeling of existing, results
from and necessarily requires an ongoing process and other such forms
or stabilities use changes as components and transient unit building
block, what differentiates the form of qualia from the form of any
other stability through changes? Therefore subjectivity is the genuine
article and not an illusion.

Homeostasis is the property of an open system, especially living
organisms, to regulate its internal environment to maintain a stable,
constant condition, by means of multiple dynamic equilibrium
adjustments, controlled by interrelated regulation mechanisms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeostasis

Heraclitus thought that the contents of things change, but their form
remains the same. He wondered under what conditions do objects persist
through time as one and the same object. In ancient times, this
problem came to be associated with the Ship of Theseus;

The ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned had thirty
oars, and was preserved by the Athenians down even to the time of
Demetrius Phalereus, for they took away the old planks as they
decayed, putting in new and stronger timber in their place, insomuch
that this ship became a standing example among the philosophers, for
the logical question of things that grow; one side holding that the
ship remained the same, and the other contending that it was not the
same. --Plutarch (c. 46- 127).

The original puzzle is this: over the years, the Athenians replaced
each plank in the original ship of Theseus as it decayed, thereby
keeping it in good repair. Eventually, there was not a single plank
left of the original ship. So, did the Athenians still have one and
the same ship that used to belong to Theseus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Theseus is famous in Greek mythology as the slayer of the Minotaur, a
half-man, half-bull monster who lived in the Labyrinth in the island
of Crete. According to Plutarch, the ship in which Theseus sailed back
to Athens was preserved for many generations, its old planks being
replaced by new ones as they decayed.

Now suppose that a few hundred years later,
all the original parts of the ship had been
replaced, one by one, so that none of
the original ship remained.

Is the preserved ship still Theseus' ship?
Or is it a copy? And if the latter, then at what point did it cease
to be Theseus' ship?

It seems that if just one plank were replaced, it would still be
Theseus' ship. And if it was still his ship, and another plank were
replaced, then it should still be Theseus' ship. By this reasoning
(which is the same as in the sorites paradox), it would be Theseus'
ship even after all planks are replaced.

turtoni...

Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:46 pm

Guest

On Jun 30, 12:46 am, Sir Frederick <mmcne... at (no spam) fuzzysys.com> wrote:

Quote:

what do you mean by magic? "free will"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-will#In_science

"Many, but not all, arguments for or against free will make an
assumption about the truth or falsehood of determinism. The scientific
method holds out the promise of being able to turn such assumptions
into fact. However, such facts would still need to be combined with
philosophical considerations in order to amount to an argument for or
against free will. For instance, if compatibilism is true, the truth
of determinism would have no effect on the question of the existence
of free will. On the other hand, a proof of determinism in conjunction
with an argument for incompatibilism would add up to an argument
against free will.

Early scientific thought often portrayed the universe as
deterministic, and some thinkers claimed that the simple process of
gathering sufficient information would allow them to predict future
events with perfect accuracy. Modern science, on the other hand, is a
mixture of deterministic and stochastic theories. Quantum mechanics
predicts events only in terms of probabilities, casting doubt on
whether the universe is deterministic at all. The possibility that the
universe at the macroscopic level may be governed by indeterministic
laws, as it is generally accepted to be at the quantum level, has
revived interest in free will among physicists. However, there are a
number of objections.

It is claimed by some that quantum indeterminism is confined to
microscopic phenomena. The claim that events at the atomic or
particulate level are unknowable can be challenged experimentally and
even technologically: for instance, some hardware random number
generators work by amplifying quantum effects into practically usable
signals. However, this only amounts to macroscopic indeterminism if it
can be shown that microscopic events really are indeterministic.

This consideration leads to the criticism of indeterminism-based free
will on the basis that quantum mechanics is not really random, but
merely unpredictable. Some scientific determinists, following Albert
Einstein, believe in so-called "hidden variable theories" according to
which the unpredictability of quantum mechanics is due to ignorance of
an additional set of physical variables not explicitly included in the
standard theory (see the Bohm interpretation and the EPR paradox).

There is also a further, more philosophical, objection. It has been
argued that if an action is taken due to quantum randomness, this in
itself means that free will is absent, since such action cannot be
controllable by someone claiming to possess such free will. If this
argument is conjoined with incompatibilism, then it would follow that
free will is impossible, since it would be incompatible with both
determinism and indeterminism, and these are the only options. If it
is conjoined with compatibilism, on the other hand, it would mean that
free will is only possible in a deterministic universe.

Robert Kane has capitalized on the success of quantum mechanics and
chaos theory in order to defend incompatibilist freedom in his The
Significance of Free Will and other writings."

Quote:

I also hold that life, including human life is an epiphenomena.
Of course our hubris makes us demand more of the situation
than that. Thus we confabulate many stories to meet that demand.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism#Arguments_against

"If it is a problem how mental events can causally influence physical
events, how is it any less of a problem how physical events can
influence mental ones? Green suggests that the assumption that it is
less of a problem may arise from the unexamined belief that physical
events have some sort of primacy over mental ones.

If epiphenomenalism is really nothing but a way of rescuing dualism,
then the whole issue can be avoided by rejecting dualism. For
instance, if the mind is identical to the brain, it must have the same
causal powers as the brain, by Leibniz's law."

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiphenomenalism

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