I have a client looking to replace several hundred 25W color dipped
incandescents.

I'd like to hear opinions on quality, reliable dimmable CFLs. (USA
120V)
They are currently using an ancient (1920-30 ish) autotransformer
theatrical piano board system. It is falling apart so we are also
hoping to upgrade to a modern afair.

Budget is of course the limiting factor, but I reliablility is primary
as these lamps are very hard to get to.

Thanks for the thoughts,
RickR

25W colour dipped,  with piano board, atmospheric theatre, twinkling
stars or colour changing ceiling?

LED has got to be worth considering, in colours at these sort of
wattages it will be most efficient way of getting saturated
colours.Low maintenace, low power consumption, lower load on the
HVAC.

CFL dosent`t do red well.

Adam

25W colour dipped, with piano board, atmospheric theatre, twinkling
stars or colour changing ceiling?

LED has got to be worth considering, in colours at these sort of
wattages it will be most efficient way of getting saturated
colours.Low maintenace, low power consumption, lower load on the
HVAC.

CFL dosent`t do red well.

Adam

Yes this is a weird set up!
The original lamps were dipped, I'm planning on quality color filter
sleaves. I still have to deal with the source, but there is wide range
of filter choices, including custom

I'd like to do LED but I need the output of a CFL. Call it something
over 1000 lumens per linear foot. I also have med. screw sockets so we
wouldn't be doing major electrical...

Thanks for the thoughts!

RickR

25W colour dipped,  with piano board, atmospheric theatre, twinkling
stars or colour changing ceiling?

LED has got to be worth considering, in colours at these sort of
wattages it will be most efficient way of getting saturated
colours.Low maintenace, low power consumption, lower load on the
HVAC.

CFL dosent`t do red well.

Adam

Yes this is a weird set up!
The original lamps were dipped, I'm planning on quality color filter
sleaves. I still have to deal with the source, but there is wide range
of filter choices, including custom

I'd like to do LED but I need the output of a CFL. Call it something
over 1000 lumens per linear foot. I also have med. screw sockets so we
wouldn't be doing major electrical...

Thanks for the thoughts!

RickR

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:19:15 -0700 (PDT), RickR

Since almost all fluorescent lamps use a "white" phosphor,
LEDs are almost always more efficient than color-filtered
fluorescent lamps.

--
Vic Robertshttp://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Jun 12, 10:09 am, Victor Roberts <x... at (no spam) lighting-research.com
wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:19:15 -0700 (PDT), RickR

Since almost all fluorescent lamps use a "white" phosphor,
LEDs are almost always more efficient than color-filtered
fluorescent lamps.

--
Vic Robertshttp://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All true, but efficiency is not a major factor once we get out of
incandescent. My goals are:
1 price - if they can't buy it the rest is irrelevant
2 lamp life
3 output (& distribution)
4 DMX control

I did just talk with a manufacturer that is "playing around" with an
asymetric lens for a LED strip with ~500 lumens per foot. The bad news
is we are still talking about $400+ per foot. CFLs would be less than
10% of that for a similar output, assuming 50% loss for color
filtering.

RickR

On Jun 12, 10:09 am, Victor Roberts <x... at (no spam) lighting-research.com
wrote:



On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:19:15 -0700 (PDT), RickR
Since almost all fluorescent lamps use a "white" phosphor,
LEDs are almost always more efficient than color-filtered
fluorescent lamps.

--
Vic Robertshttp://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All true, but efficiency is not a major factor once we get out of
incandescent. My goals are:
1 price - if they can't buy it the rest is irrelevant
2 lamp life
3 output (& distribution)
4 DMX control

I did just talk with a manufacturer that is "playing around" with an
asymetric lens for a LED strip with ~500 lumens per foot. The bad news
is we are still talking about $400+ per foot. CFLs would be less than
10% of that for a similar output, assuming 50% loss for color
filtering.

On Jun 13, 7:08 pm, RickR <r... at (no spam) silhouettelights.com> wrote:





On Jun 12, 10:09 am, Victor Roberts <x... at (no spam) lighting-research.com
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:19:15 -0700 (PDT), RickR
Since almost all fluorescent lamps use a "white" phosphor,
LEDs are almost always more efficient than color-filtered
fluorescent lamps.

--
Vic Robertshttp://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All true, but efficiency is not a major factor once we get out of
incandescent. My goals are:
1 price - if they can't buy it the rest is irrelevant
2 lamp life
3 output (& distribution)
4 DMX control

I did just talk with a manufacturer that is "playing around" with an
asymetric lens for a LED strip with ~500 lumens per foot. The bad news
is we are still talking about $400+ per foot. CFLs would be less than
10% of that for a similar output, assuming 50% loss for color
filtering.

Lets have another look at the numbers, 1000 lumens a foot would be
substantial step up from existing installation with colour dipped 25W
incandescent, picturing some sort of tubular lamp?

50% loss plus the rest, Rosco Supergel, big brand theatrical colour
filter

#26 Light Red Visible light transmission 12%
#68 Sky Blue VLT 14%
Leaf Green #386 VLT 32%

Arbitary personal choice of colours, without going too light.
Rosco do make a range of primary colour gel specfically for cyclorama
lighting, usually run in continuous RGB rows top and bottom of a cyc,
colours are silks though which has a grain in the filter to help blend
adjacent edges, slight transmission loss in the grain, transmission %:

Green 13%
Blue     8%
Red    12%

This is total visible light transmission, with fluro SPD your not
playing with 100% to start with....

As a replacement for existing lamps a board populated with 5mm LEDs
will be at least as bright, again picturing lamp as like a `long nose`
pygmy lamp. Symmetric beam profile but possible to use beam shaping
film on output.Plug and play.

High power LEDs have a range of assymetric lens for most of them,
typically letterbox profile, and because of small source size most of
the light is delivered out the front. Slightly more demanding thermal
requirements, lamp bars are going to be thin and wide or narrow and
deep. Drivers and power requiremnts a bit more special.

Strangley the original dimmers would be the best for cotrolling either
probably, on  resistive wired 5mm LED, dimming on SCR might look a bit
steppy on slow fades. Autotransformer would dim lovely, now just need
a DMX to Ward Leonard interface ;-)

Adam- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a client looking to replace several hundred 25W color dipped
incandescents.

I'd like to hear opinions on quality, reliable dimmable CFLs. (USA
120V)
They are currently using an ancient (1920-30 ish) autotransformer
theatrical piano board system. It is falling apart so we are also
hoping to upgrade to a modern afair.

Budget is of course the limiting factor, but I reliablility is primary
as these lamps are very hard to get to.

Thanks for the thoughts,
RickR

On Jun 15, 7:17 pm, Adam Aglionby <ledli... at (no spam) gmail.com> wrote:



On Jun 13, 7:08 pm, RickR <r... at (no spam) silhouettelights.com> wrote:

On Jun 12, 10:09 am, Victor Roberts <x... at (no spam) lighting-research.com
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 18:19:15 -0700 (PDT), RickR
Since almost all fluorescent lamps use a "white" phosphor,
LEDs are almost always more efficient than color-filtered
fluorescent lamps.

--
Vic Robertshttp://www.RobertsResearchInc.com
To reply via e-mail:
replace xxx with vdr in the Reply to: address
or use e-mail address listed at the Web site.

This information is provided for educational purposes only.
It may not be used in any publication or posted on any Web
site without written permission.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

All true, but efficiency is not a major factor once we get out of
incandescent. My goals are:
1 price - if they can't buy it the rest is irrelevant
2 lamp life
3 output (& distribution)
4 DMX control

I did just talk with a manufacturer that is "playing around" with an
asymetric lens for a LED strip with ~500 lumens per foot. The bad news
is we are still talking about $400+ per foot. CFLs would be less than
10% of that for a similar output, assuming 50% loss for color
filtering.

Lets have another look at the numbers, 1000 lumens a foot would be
substantial step up from existing installation with colour dipped 25W
incandescent, picturing some sort of tubular lamp?

50% loss plus the rest, Rosco Supergel, big brand theatrical colour
filter

#26 Light Red Visible light transmission 12%
#68 Sky Blue VLT 14%
Leaf Green #386 VLT 32%

Arbitary personal choice of colours, without going too light.
Rosco do make a range of primary colour gel specfically for cyclorama
lighting, usually run in continuous RGB rows top and bottom of a cyc,
colours are silks though which has a grain in the filter to help blend
adjacent edges, slight transmission loss in the grain, transmission %:

Green 13%
Blue 8%
Red 12%

This is total visible light transmission, with fluro SPD your not
playing with 100% to start with....

As a replacement for existing lamps a board populated with 5mm LEDs
will be at least as bright, again picturing lamp as like a `long nose`
pygmy lamp. Symmetric beam profile but possible to use beam shaping
film on output.Plug and play.

High power LEDs have a range of assymetric lens for most of them,
typically letterbox profile, and because of small source size most of
the light is delivered out the front. Slightly more demanding thermal
requirements, lamp bars are going to be thin and wide or narrow and
deep. Drivers and power requiremnts a bit more special.

Strangley the original dimmers would be the best for cotrolling either
probably, on resistive wired 5mm LED, dimming on SCR might look a bit
steppy on slow fades. Autotransformer would dim lovely, now just need
a DMX to Ward Leonard interface ;-)

Adam- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ward Leonard, I don't know. But the autotransformer doesn't dim
anything at the moment. :-(

My filtering losses were off the cuff, because I have them both on the
existing (25A19) and the CFLs so the raw comparison is probably
accurate. I tossed out some numbers to get away from the stuff I've
seen as cove lighting, its all just too dim. Converting general
illumination lumens to color LED output is an art yet to be mastered,
as far as I can tell. Positioning, distribution, various loss factors,
internal reflection... We will have so many unknowns that just getting
a rough estimate is, well rough.

Adam, you've roughed out the basic needs well. Have you seen such a
fixture? Sure one can be custom built, but will it be UL? By a
reliable company that will stand behind the marketing claims, even
those claims made by their suppliers??

Perhaps by the time this client is ready to spend some money we'll
have some better choices, or at least variables with smaller ranges.

Thanks,
RickR

There is some move to change Blue lumens I beleive as eye sensitivity
may be better at blue thn was thought in 1932 when the colourspace was
roughed out.