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Science Forum Index » Medicine - Lyme Forum » NEWS: Mark Klempner and The Science....
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| Mort Zuckerman... |
 Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:59 am |
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Subject: [SpinLyme] NEWS: Mark Klempner and The Science.
Date: Jun 8, 2008 5:51 AM
What Mark Klempner has to say about Chronic Lyme:
http://www.actionlyme.org/index.htm
http://www.actionlyme.org/Mark_Klempner_Fibroblasts.htm
"Moreover, antibiotic treatment does not preclude isolation of viable
spirochetes
from patients. For example, B. burgdorferi has been isolated from
skin, synovial
fluid and cerebrospinal fluid of patients who received antibiotic
treatment for
Lyme disease...
Hmmm, lemme find out why... Hmm. It seems ceftriaxone is defeated by
the intracellular
spirochetes, and even when I cultured 46 petri dishes of spirochetes
with ceftriaxone
(and NO FIBROBLASTS for them to hide in) I was able to recover
spirochetes in 3
of them.
"CONCLUSION: Ceftriaxone fails to cure Lyme Disease due to the
intracellularity
of the spirochetes."
"--- Thanks and have a nice day,
"Mark Klempner"
- - -
IDSociety.org references the viability of the spheroplast or cyst
form:
http://www.actionlyme.org/IDSA_CYST_VIABLE.htm
- - - - - -
http://www.delmarvanow.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080608/NEWS01/806080303/-1/newsfront2
SALISBURY -- Despite reports that the incidence of Lyme disease on the
Shore is
low, many residents say they are still suffering from it and are
unable to find
treatment.
"I wish that more doctors would look beyond just their specialty and
start
connecting the dots," said Mary Stadlebacher, a Salisbury resident who
has
suffered from Lyme disease for 10 years.
Maryland is the second highest state in the country for Lyme disease
cases reported
this year, and the Shore is known by Lyme activists -- experts on the
disease who
disagree with mainstream guidelines -- as a "hot spot" for the
disease.
"The numbers here on the Lower Shore are extremely low ... six cases
in Worcester
County," said Pam Andrews, president of the local Lyme Disease
Association.
"I've met all six of them, and I know there are more, but they are
not
being reported."
Andrews said those like Stadlebacher may never have their case
included into those
statistics because their symptoms do not match guidelines followed by
the Centers
for Disease Control and Prevention.
Lyme activists agree that the guidelines -- recently put under
investigation by
the Connecticut Attorney General -- are false and lead to misdiagnosis
and the inability
for Stadlebacher and many like her to get treatment.
"I now know that I have a not-so-subtle disease and I have nothing I
can do
with it," she said.
If the Attorney General's investigation leads to new guidelines for
diagnosis,
people like Stadlebacher could face less hassle in getting the
treatment they need
at a cost they can actually afford.
Costly care
Stadlebacher said she bounced around from specialist to specialist as
her symptoms
changed, her "saga" really racking up medical bills.
"In 1999 or so, I started having problems with my heart; it started
doing the
tango without my permission," she said. "It was kind of scary to say
the
least."
She went to a heart specialist who suggested she undergo treatment,
though he could
not find a cause for the arrhythmia.
She then began experiencing a numbness in her hands and went to a
neurologist where
she had a spinal fusion and numerous MRIs.
"I have so many MRI films, it isn't even funny," she said.
She was then diagnosed with fibromyalgia, but still wanted a reason
for her disease.
"They said either I have to deal with it or it's all in my head,"
she said. "I said I don't think so. I thought, there has got to be a
reason
for all of this."
Stadlebacher began going to Johns Hopkins Hospital in Baltimore, but
in the meantime
, she asked her primary care doctor to test her for Lyme.
"Insurance companies are clamping down on these tests, and they don't
want
to pay for them," she said. "They're throwing the bill back to the
doctors, so the doctors are becoming very selective on what tests they
are doing."
Though her tests came back positive, her doctor still told her she did
not have
Lyme disease.
"That is typical of so many doctors," she said.
With the help of the Patient Resource and Wellness Center in
Salisbury, Stadlebacher
was able to get a long-term antibiotic prescription, but by that time
her insurance
company had had enough.
"My insurance went up to $800 a month, just me, and I had to pay
that,"
she said. "So I had to drop."
Without insurance, she has been trying to get treatment for her
disease out of pocket.
Politics of science
Lucy Barnes, a Maryland resident and an international Lyme disease
activist, said
the battle over Lyme disease guidelines has little interest vested in
patient care.
"It is a scientific nightmare that no one is paying attention to," she
said. "It hasn't been allowed to be explored and no one can
understand
on the surface what is going on out there."
Barnes said two schools of thought exist on Lyme, one of which is
exemplified in
the CDC's guidelines and says chronic Lyme disease doesn't exist. The
other,
advocated by the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society,
says Lyme can
become a chronic illness and long-term antibiotics may be the only
treatment.
But for one doctor, there is no question whether chronic Lyme disease
"exists."
"It is not a question of belief," said Dr. Sam Donta, a Boston
physician
who served on the first Infectious Disease Society board to discuss
Lyme disease
guidelines.
Donta said the board alienated any member who attempted to explore
chronic Lyme
disease, which lead to their investigation by the Connecticut Attorney
General.
"The process has unfortunately gotten very political," he said. "I
wanted to be a part of the second group to work on Lyme disease
guidelines, and
I was told that I was not welcome because my views were not consistent
with those
of the committee."
Since the investigation began, the CDC reports continued support of
the IDSA guidelines.
"If you look at why they were put under investigation, it has nothing
to do
with science," said Kevin Griffith, a CDC epidemiologist. "We feel
(the
IDSA) guidelines are the best and most representative of the
scientific literature
which is available."
Activists have little hope that the guidelines will change and said
responsibility
now lies with the patient.
"You need to take your own health into your own hands," Barnes said.
"You
need to keep pushing to get help until someone listens."
laurad at (no spam) dmg.gannett.com 410-845-4630
In your voice
------------------------------------
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| the 3rd Man... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:07 am |
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On Jun 8, 12:59 pm, Mort Zuckerman <morph... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: "Moreover, antibiotic treatment does not preclude isolation of viable
spirochetes
from patients. For example, B. burgdorferi has been isolated from
skin, synovial
fluid and cerebrospinal fluid of patients who received antibiotic
treatment for
Lyme disease...
SO?
That doesn't necessarily mean that the disease has not been "CURED".
Depends on what you mean by "cured"...how you define it.
If you are, I would think, relieved of symptoms...I would guess most
people would believe themselves "cured"...even if a few leftover
spiros remain.
Unless the body's immune response is now totally and completely
ineffective...wouldn't one expect that the immune system could handle
the mop-up of remaining spirochetes?
Quote: "CONCLUSION: Ceftriaxone fails to cure Lyme Disease due to the
intracellularity
of the spirochetes."
NO.
Show us where Klempner said that...(and PLEASE...remind us here how
you NEVER "lie").
And you REALLY should NOT make up things and FALSELY attribute them to
another.
It's EXTEREMELY DISHONEST...and terribly misleading. |
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| the 3rd Man... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:07 pm |
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On Jun 8, 3:58 pm, Sewer Rat <ratfromthese... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
#3 wrote: " Unless the body's immune response is now totally and
completely
ineffective...wouldn't one expect that the immune system could handle
the mop-up of remaining spirochetes"?
Quote:
Perhaps one would expect, but how many spirochetes are entering the body
in case of a bite from an infected tick? Can't be that many either, but
still the immune system can't always handle them. So, I don't know,
perhaps in some, but not all, cases the immune system can handle the
remaining spirochetes.
Yes. I really don't know, either. Just trying to elaborate on the
point that "cure" does not necessarily equal total eradication of
every last spirochete.
Quote: "CONCLUSION: Ceftriaxone fails to cure Lyme Disease due to the
intracellularity
of the spirochetes."
NO.
Indeed, correct would be to conclude that ceftriaxone fails to eradicate
all spirochetes; which does not necessarily imply that it fails to cure
Lyme Disease.
Yes, this is really the only point that I was trying to make. |
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| Sewer Rat... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:42 pm |
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Mort Zuckerman wrote:
<snip stupid superfluous e-mail addresses>
Quote: Subject: [SpinLyme] NEWS: Mark Klempner and The Science.
Date: Jun 8, 2008 5:51 AM
What Mark Klempner has to say about Chronic Lyme:
http://www.actionlyme.org/index.htm
http://www.actionlyme.org/Mark_Klempner_Fibroblasts.htm
"Moreover, antibiotic treatment does not preclude isolation of viable
spirochetes
from patients. For example, B. burgdorferi has been isolated from
skin, synovial
fluid and cerebrospinal fluid of patients who received antibiotic
treatment for
Lyme disease...
Hmmm, lemme find out why... Hmm. It seems ceftriaxone is defeated by
the intracellular
spirochetes, and even when I cultured 46 petri dishes of spirochetes
with ceftriaxone
(and NO FIBROBLASTS for them to hide in) I was able to recover
spirochetes in 3
of them.
"CONCLUSION: Ceftriaxone fails to cure Lyme Disease due to the
intracellularity
of the spirochetes."
"--- Thanks and have a nice day,
"Mark Klempner"
<snip>
Yes, this is why I am saying for a few years now that ceftriaxone alone
is not a logical treatment and that there is no justification for long
term use of expensive and potentially dangerous IV ceftriaxone.
A short term course of ceftriaxone followed by eukaryotic cell
penetrating protein synthesis inhibiting antibiotics that can be taken
orally makes more sense. Or skip the ceftriaxone entirely. |
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| Sewer Rat... |
| Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:58 pm |
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the 3rd Man wrote:
Quote: Depends on what you mean by "cured"...how you define it.
If you are, I would think, relieved of symptoms...I would guess most
people would believe themselves "cured"...even if a few leftover
spiros remain.
Unless the body's immune response is now totally and completely
ineffective...wouldn't one expect that the immune system could handle
the mop-up of remaining spirochetes?
Perhaps one would expect, but how many spirochetes are entering the body
in case of a bite from an infected tick? Can't be that many either, but
still the immune system can't always handle them. So, I don't know,
perhaps in some, but not all, cases the immune system can handle the
remaining spirochetes.
Quote: "CONCLUSION: Ceftriaxone fails to cure Lyme Disease due to the
intracellularity
of the spirochetes."
NO.
Indeed, correct would be to conclude that ceftriaxone fails to eradicate
all spirochetes; which does not necessarily imply that it fails to cure
Lyme Disease. |
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| Mort Zuckerman... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:33 am |
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On Jun 8, 4:07 pm, the 3rd Man <derdrittemann2... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: On Jun 8, 12:59 pm, Mort Zuckerman <morph... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
"Moreover, antibiotic treatment does not preclude isolation of viable
spirochetes
from patients. For example, B. burgdorferi has been isolated from
skin, synovial
fluid and cerebrospinal fluid of patients who received antibiotic
treatment for
Lyme disease...
SO?
That doesn't necessarily mean that the disease has not been "CURED".
Depends on what you mean by "cured"...how you define it.
If you are, I would think, relieved of symptoms...I would guess most
people would believe themselves "cured"...even if a few leftover
spiros remain.
Unless the body's immune response is now totally and completely
ineffective...wouldn't one expect that the immune system could handle
the mop-up of remaining spirochetes?
"CONCLUSION: Ceftriaxone fails to cure Lyme Disease due to the
intracellularity
of the spirochetes."
NO.
Show us where Klempner said that...(and PLEASE...remind us here how
you NEVER "lie").
And you REALLY should NOT make up things and FALSELY attribute them to
another.
It's EXTEREMELY DISHONEST...and terribly misleading.
Fibroblasts protect the Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi,
from ceftriaxone in vitro.
Georgilis K, Peacocke M, Klempner MS.
Department of Medicine, New England Medical Center, Boston,
Massachusetts.
The Lyme disease spirochete, Borrelia burgdorferi, can be recovered
long after initial infection, even from antibiotic-treated patients,
indicating that it resists eradication by host defense mechanisms and
antibiotics. Since B. burgdorferi first infects skin, the possible
protective effect of skin fibroblasts from an antibiotic commonly used
to treat Lyme disease, ceftriaxone, was examined. Human foreskin
fibroblasts protected B. burgdorferi from the lethal action of a 2-day
exposure to ceftriaxone at 1 microgram/mL, 10-20 x MBC. In the absence
of fibroblasts, organisms did not survive. Spirochetes were not
protected from ceftriaxone by glutaraldehyde-fixed fibroblasts or
fibroblast lysate, suggesting that a living cell was required. The
ability of the organism to survive in the presence of fibroblasts was
not related to its infectivity. Fibroblasts protected B. burgdorferi
for at least 14 days of exposure to ceftriaxone. Mouse keratinocytes,
HEp-2 cells, and Vero cells but not Caco-2 cells showed the same
protective effect. *** Thus, several eukaryotic cell types provide the
Lyme disease spirochete with a protective environment contributing to
its long-term survival. ***
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1634816?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum
It only takes one spirochete to start the "disease."
In addition, the bad guys have all referenced this URI report:
http://www.actionlyme.org/IDSA_CYST_VIABLE.htm
And as usual, the name of the disease is Relapsing Fever
since it is incurable.
http://www.actionlyme.org/RICOCHRON.htm
AS USUAL, I *NEVER* *LIE.* |
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| the 3rd Man... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:20 am |
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On Jun 9, 5:33 am, Mort Zuckerman <morph... at (no spam) yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: It only takes one spirochete to start the "disease."
In theory.
"AS USUAL, I *NEVER* *LIE".
You just did. |
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| Sewer Rat... |
| Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:25 am |
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Mort Zuckerman wrote:
Quote: It only takes one spirochete to start the "disease."
Theoretically, but do you evidence that this is true in practice?
I guess the bacterial load is a factor for starting the disease.
I agree that the ISDA ridiculously easily refutes the cyst form.
BTW: don't call your web page "New Page 17" but use a descriptive title.
Quote: And as usual, the name of the disease is Relapsing Fever
since it is incurable.
Do you have evidence for this claim?
Some people seem to do fine when treated early. And also some people
with late stage/chronic Lyme claim to have been cured. |
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