There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using baking
soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?

Stig Holmquist

Not using soda as Iron Hidroxide has low solubility. Is more efficient

Stig Holmquist ha scritto:
There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using baking
soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?

Stig Holmquist

"Revenge" <revenchem at (no spam) infinito.it
Not using soda as Iron Hidroxide has low solubility. Is more efficient the
use of HCl and more strong adding current using iron as anode.
Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.

hanson wrote:

To remove the rust you immerse your parts into a boiling

Should you use DC current with that cold or hot solution

Enjoy Chemistry .. but fuuug enviors!

"Revenge" <revenc... at (no spam) infinito.it> wrote in message

news:4839d52b$0$40216$4fafbaef at (no spam) reader5.news.tin.it...> Stig Holmquist ha scritto:
There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using baking
soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?

Stig Holmquist

"Revenge" <revenc... at (no spam) infinito.it>> Not using soda as Iron Hidroxide has low solubility. Is more efficient the
use of HCl and more strong adding current using iron as anode.
Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.

hanson wrote:

"Revenge" is right, rust dissolution is much, much faster
in/with acid. But if you like to play around at home with
the thing then use KoolAid, the powdered Softdrink stuff.
It contains Sugar and Citric acid that you neutralize with
Baking soda (add until fizzing stops) to get Sod-citrate.

To remove the rust you immerse your parts into a boiling
solution of that sodium citrate. It chelates the rust, meaning
dissolves it without attacking the steel itself.

Should you use DC current with that cold or hot solution
make sure that the parts are mostly negative and only for
a short time positive. If Anodic = positive, the steel will be
attacked. This old procedure is called "electro-cleaning".

Enjoy Chemistry .. but fuuug enviors!
ahaha.. ahahahanson

There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using baking
soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?

Stig Holmquist

"tadchem" <tadchem at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in message

Stig Holmquist ha scritto:

"Revenge" <revenc... at (no spam) infinito.it

hanson wrote:

"tadchem" <tadchem at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:

hanson wrote:

The selected steel parts from disassembly are immersed in

Now comes the bizarre part... hahaha... I got invited by

Those here with some chem know-how, will know exactly

Years later, I learned that this was standard procedure,

This then was my introduction into world of 'hardball" that

Once, one of my contractors labeled these plays & games

One day I may tell you how the Peddler, the Mayor of the

"Androcles" <Headmaster at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics> wrote in message

"hanson" <hanson at (no spam) quick.net> wrote in message
news:LuI_j.2582$4c.1314 at (no spam) trnddc08...
| "tadchem" <tadchem at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in message
|
news:8f2b3799-6498-4692-8e83-d2bd4e81fc44 at (no spam) y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
|
| Stig Holmquist ha scritto:
| There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using
| baking soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?
|
| "Revenge" <revenc... at (no spam) infinito.it
| Not using soda as Iron Hidroxide has low solubility. Is more
| efficient the use of HCl and more strong adding current
| using iron as anode.
| Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.
|
| hanson wrote:
| "Revenge" is right, rust dissolution is much, much faster
| in/with acid. But if you like to play around at home with
| the thing then use KoolAid, the powdered Softdrink stuff.
| It contains Sugar and Citric acid that you neutralize with
| Baking soda (add until fizzing stops) to get Sod-citrate.
| To remove the rust you immerse your parts into a boiling
| solution of that sodium citrate. It chelates the rust, meaning
| dissolves it without attacking the steel itself.
| Should you use DC current with that cold or hot solution
| make sure that the parts are mostly negative and only for
| a short time positive. If Anodic = positive, the steel will be
| attacked. This old procedure is called "electro-cleaning".
| Enjoy Chemistry .. but fuuug enviors! --- ahaha.. ahahahanson
|
| "tadchem" <tadchem at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
| Iron oxide, hydrous oxide, hydroxide has low solubility.
| Solubility is accelerated with strong acid:
| Fe2O3 + (H+) -(aqueous)-> Fe(OH)3 -> Fe(H2O)
| solid (gel) (solution)
| <unbalanced reaction, somewhat simplified
| Ligands such as chloride, citrate, or EDTA (as in CLR rust
| remover) which form stable complexes with iron facilitate this
| dissolution. Muriatic acid (HCl solution, available as pH
| treatment for swimming pools) is excellent for rust removal.
| Sometimes, when it is desirable to conserve the metal, the
| object can be sealed in an oxygen-free chamber with H2 gas
| and heated to over 100° C. (Special equipment required!
| Do not try this at home unless you own an autoclave, possess
| the requisite safety equipment, and are experienced with
| reactive atmospheres.) This reduces the rust back to iron
| metal. -- Tom Davidson - Richmond, VA
|
| hanson wrote:
| "This reduces the rust back to iron metal"... with the many
| times nasty drawback that the recovered metal is powdery &
| spongy ... ahahaha... But staying on the subject of industrial
| rust- and heat scale removal, here is how Jet engines
| were/are prepared and prepped for overhaul purposes.
|
| The selected steel parts from disassembly are immersed in
| (1) a solution of 1 lb/gallon NaOH with 10-20% KMnO4
| (Potassium permanganate) at 180-200°F for 30 min. That
| oxidizes all Fe2+ into Fe3+ compounds & most importantly
| it oxidizes Cr2,3,4+ into soluble Cr6+ chromates, and same
| for the Vanadium, V and Tungsten, W, and similar for Ni & Co.
| (2) The parts are then rinsed and immersed into a solution
| of 1 lb/gal NaOH (Caustic Soda)) containing 20% Sodium
| gluconate or Sodium Boro Heptagluconate+ wetting agent
| for 30 minutes at 150-160°F. This solubilizes the "rust".
| (3) The parts are then rinsed and dipped in a room-temp.
| solution of 1/2-1 lb NaHSO4 (Sodium Bisulfate) + inhibitors
| such as C16-C18-fatty Dimethylamines. This removes the
| rest of the unwanted surface contaminants.
| (4) Rinse, dry and inspect the parts.
|
| Now comes the bizarre part... hahaha... I got invited by
| a seasoned chem-peddler to come along to see the operation,
| around midnight when nobody else was around. Proudly
| he showed me "his Account"... a series of huge tanks
| each 10'000 gallon filled with the above solutions. On the
| other side of the Hangar, he pointed out, that there was the
| line of the competition. -- As we strolled along "His" line
| of tanks he let out a loud holler of cheer followed by a
| broad smile saying: "Kid, I gotta return them the favor". The
| color of tank# 1 (Mn7+) was not violet but deep green (Mn 5+)
| and Tank # 2 (Gluc) was not clear but murky brown (MnO2).
| ahahaha... So, the peddler looked & found a 5 gallon bucket,
| walked over to the competion's line and poured some
| 20 buckets full of tank #1 solution into tank #2 and then
| repeated that from tank#2 into tank #1.
|
| Those here with some chem know-how, will know exactly
| what this mutual sabotage did. I knew right away what was
| going on chemically. But what I did not know then was the
| game that was played here. I didn't say anything on the way
| to the Bar. There to my utter surprise my peddler met the
| competition's peddler who said: "What the fuck took you
| so long"... And they bullshited like 2 long lost buddies.
|
| Years later, I learned that this was standard procedure,
| "a revenue enhancement operation amongst friends"
| to force the customer to buy more chemicals... with the
| goal that the customer should eventually prefer one peddler
| over the other one and let him have all the business...
|
| This then was my introduction into world of 'hardball" that
| is played in all types of political, academic or industrial
| endeavors. Most workers or employees do not know what's
| really going in their places of employment, outside their
| labs benches or cubicles with its petty in-fights amongst
| \co-workers. Only the ones who are involved in the financial
| aspects of the business do know about theses games ....
| and they keep the snouts shut since the are implicated.
|
| Once, one of my contractors labeled these plays & games
| laconically as "traditional industrial warfare and combat"...
| ahahaha...
|
| One day I may tell you how the Peddler, the Mayor of the
| City and the Superior Court Judge were playing the game
| together such that the entire company + wives and the
| Major and Judge with their entourages "financed" a free
| 5 day vacation in the Bahamans for everybody, including
| $200 cash for anyybody to gamble in the casino... ahahaha..
| ahaha... ahahahanson
|
Androcles wrote:
Reminds me of the pet food manufacturers that have a 50-50
share of the market. One makes CatFood and the other makes
KatFood. To getter a bigger share, one goes into competition
with himself and starts a new product line, KittyFood.
The three products have now split the market 33-33-33 which
is really 67-33 because there are only two manufacturers. So the
other does the same thing and before you know it we've got
cat food for kittens, cat food for healthy cats, cat food for pregnant
cats and cat food for senior cats, plus a house full of mice while
the lazy cat is sleeping off his high fibre, specially nutritious
dinner that also cleans his fuckin' teeth...

hanson wrote:

---- It's known as ***"Private Labeling"*** ----

A biz orders as many finished parts/components as possible

So since the 1970's the manufacture of components was

= Notice for instance how in the apparel and shoe business

Remember: "Behind every great fortune there is a crime",

--
Androcles wrote:
Why did Einstein say
the speed of light from A to B is c-v,
the speed of light from B to A is c+v,
the "time" each way is the same?
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

"Androcles" <Headmaster at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics> wrote in message

"hanson" <hanson at (no spam) quick.net> wrote in message
news:vxK_j.3108$u7.1234 at (no spam) trnddc07...
| "Androcles" <Headmaster at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics> wrote in message
| news:eUI_j.15570$zY7.10565 at (no spam) newsfe11.ams2...
| > "hanson" <hanson at (no spam) quick.net> wrote in message
| > news:LuI_j.2582$4c.1314 at (no spam) trnddc08...
| > | "tadchem" <tadchem at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote in message
news:8f2b3799-6498-4692-8e83-d2bd4e81fc44 at (no spam) y21g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
| > |
| > | Stig Holmquist ha scritto:
| > | There is an electrolytic method for rust removal based on using
| > | baking soda an a battery. What is the chemical reaction?
| > |
| > | "Revenge" <revenc... at (no spam) infinito.it
| > | Not using soda as Iron Hidroxide has low solubility. Is more
| > | efficient the use of HCl and more strong adding current
| > | using iron as anode.
| > | Another way is to use oxalic acid and/or citric acid.
| > |
| > | hanson wrote:
| > | "Revenge" is right, rust dissolution is much, much faster
| > | in/with acid. But if you like to play around at home with
| > | the thing then use KoolAid, the powdered Softdrink stuff.
| > | It contains Sugar and Citric acid that you neutralize with
| > | Baking soda (add until fizzing stops) to get Sod-citrate.
| > | To remove the rust you immerse your parts into a boiling
| > | solution of that sodium citrate. It chelates the rust, meaning
| > | dissolves it without attacking the steel itself.
| > | Should you use DC current with that cold or hot solution
| > | make sure that the parts are mostly negative and only for
| > | a short time positive. If Anodic = positive, the steel will be
| > | attacked. This old procedure is called "electro-cleaning".
| > | Enjoy Chemistry .. but fuuug enviors! --- ahaha.. ahahahanson
| > |
| > | "tadchem" <tadchem at (no spam) comcast.net> wrote:
| > | Iron oxide, hydrous oxide, hydroxide has low solubility.
| > | Solubility is accelerated with strong acid:
| > | Fe2O3 + (H+) -(aqueous)-> Fe(OH)3 -> Fe(H2O)
| > | solid (gel)
(solution)
| > | <unbalanced reaction, somewhat simplified
| > | Ligands such as chloride, citrate, or EDTA (as in CLR rust
| > | remover) which form stable complexes with iron facilitate this
| > | dissolution. Muriatic acid (HCl solution, available as pH
| > | treatment for swimming pools) is excellent for rust removal.
| > | Sometimes, when it is desirable to conserve the metal, the
| > | object can be sealed in an oxygen-free chamber with H2 gas
| > | and heated to over 100° C. (Special equipment required!
| > | Do not try this at home unless you own an autoclave, possess
| > | the requisite safety equipment, and are experienced with
| > | reactive atmospheres.) This reduces the rust back to iron
| > | metal. -- Tom Davidson - Richmond, VA
| > |
| > | hanson wrote:
| > | "This reduces the rust back to iron metal"... with the many
| > | times nasty drawback that the recovered metal is powdery &
| > | spongy ... ahahaha... But staying on the subject of industrial
| > | rust- and heat scale removal, here is how Jet engines
| > | were/are prepared and prepped for overhaul purposes.
| > |
| > | The selected steel parts from disassembly are immersed in
| > | (1) a solution of 1 lb/gallon NaOH with 10-20% KMnO4
| > | (Potassium permanganate) at 180-200°F for 30 min. That
| > | oxidizes all Fe2+ into Fe3+ compounds & most importantly
| > | it oxidizes Cr2,3,4+ into soluble Cr6+ chromates, and same
| > | for the Vanadium, V and Tungsten, W, and similar for Ni & Co.
| > | (2) The parts are then rinsed and immersed into a solution
| > | of 1 lb/gal NaOH (Caustic Soda)) containing 20% Sodium
| > | gluconate or Sodium Boro Heptagluconate+ wetting agent
| > | for 30 minutes at 150-160°F. This solubilizes the "rust".
| > | (3) The parts are then rinsed and dipped in a room-temp.
| > | solution of 1/2-1 lb NaHSO4 (Sodium Bisulfate) + inhibitors
| > | such as C16-C18-fatty Dimethylamines. This removes the
| > | rest of the unwanted surface contaminants.
| > | (4) Rinse, dry and inspect the parts.
| > |
************* Now comes the bizarre part ***********
| > |
| > | Now comes the bizarre part... hahaha... I got invited by
| > | a seasoned chem-peddler to come along to see the operation,
| > | around midnight when nobody else was around. Proudly
| > | he showed me "his Account"... a series of huge tanks
| > | each 10'000 gallon filled with the above solutions. On the
| > | other side of the Hangar, he pointed out, that there was the
| > | line of the competition. -- As we strolled along "His" line
| > | of tanks he let out a loud holler of cheer followed by a
| > | broad smile saying: "Kid, I gotta return them the favor". The
| > | color of tank# 1 (Mn7+) was not violet but deep green (Mn 5+)
| > | and Tank # 2 (Gluc) was not clear but murky brown (MnO2).
| > | ahahaha... So, the peddler looked & found a 5 gallon bucket,
| > | walked over to the competion's line and poured some
| > | 20 buckets full of tank #1 solution into tank #2 and then
| > | repeated that from tank#2 into tank #1.
| > |
| > | Those here with some chem know-how, will know exactly
| > | what this mutual sabotage did. I knew right away what was
| > | going on chemically. But what I did not know then was the
| > | game that was played here. I didn't say anything on the way
| > | to the Bar. There to my utter surprise my peddler met the
| > | competition's peddler who said: "What the fuck took you
| > | so long"... And they bullshited like 2 long lost buddies.
| > |
| > | Years later, I learned that this was standard procedure,
| > | "a revenue enhancement operation amongst friends"
| > | to force the customer to buy more chemicals... with the
| > | goal that the customer should eventually prefer one peddler
| > | over the other one and let him have all the business...
| > |
| > | This then was my introduction into world of 'hardball" that
| > | is played in all types of political, academic or industrial
| > | endeavors. Most workers or employees do not know what's
| > | really going in their places of employment, outside their
| > | labs benches or cubicles with its petty in-fights amongst
| > | \co-workers. Only the ones who are involved in the financial
| > | aspects of the business do know about theses games ....
| > | and they keep the snouts shut since the are implicated.
| > |
| > | Once, one of my contractors labeled these plays & games
| > | laconically as "traditional industrial warfare and combat"...
| > | ahahaha...
| > |
| > | One day I may tell you how the Peddler, the Mayor of the
| > | City and the Superior Court Judge were playing the game
| > | together such that the entire company + wives and the
| > | Major and Judge with their entourages "financed" a free
| > | 5 day vacation in the Bahamans for everybody, including
| > | $200 cash for anyybody to gamble in the casino... ahahaha..
| > | ahaha... ahahahanson
| > |
| Androcles wrote:
| > Reminds me of the pet food manufacturers that have a 50-50
| > share of the market. One makes CatFood and the other makes
| > KatFood. To getter a bigger share, one goes into competition
| > with himself and starts a new product line, KittyFood.
| > The three products have now split the market 33-33-33 which
| > is really 67-33 because there are only two manufacturers. So the
| > other does the same thing and before you know it we've got
| > cat food for kittens, cat food for healthy cats, cat food for pregnant
| > cats and cat food for senior cats, plus a house full of mice while
| > the lazy cat is sleeping off his high fibre, specially nutritious
| > dinner that also cleans his fuckin' teeth...
|
| hanson wrote:
| ... ahahaha... very perceptive Andro, and now extend that
| observation into other goods on the market... with all types
| of cars, appliances, TVs, fridges, ovens, stoves, cutlery,
| medications, el. instruments, even nuts, bolts and springs
| etc... it's the same game that you have noticed with your
| example, but that is an accepted and legit practice
|
| ---- It's known as ***"Private Labeling"*** ----
|
| A biz orders as many finished parts/components as possible
| to assemble its product. Making such components from
| scratch is impossible because of the cocksucking green
| shits who have burdened such endeavors with prohibitive
| regulations that include permit fees, production charges
| storage permit fee, recycling demand charges etc.. etc...
|
| So since the 1970's the manufacture of components was
| OUT SOURCED to Korea and China, then to India, Pakistan
| & to the meso-Americas where they ACTUALLY produce
| the goods. -- So, you simply place from there a huge order
| (100'000 minimum) of a part for your product. All these parts
| that are made there originate from a single mother template
| and the output is modified slightly according to you order
| specs that include a few additional holes or cutouts and
| recesses, different thread types and color of the finish..
| and of course with a your specified labels and part number
| stamped onto/into it... giving the impression that you have
| manufactured it yourself... ahahaha... ahahaha... ahahaha..
|
| = Notice for instance how in the apparel and shoe business
| charges fly back and forth about the use of child-labor in
| these manufacturing countries. Praise the fucking enviros for
| that!
| = Notice how the door-, trunk-, and tail section parts for a
| 2003 car of maker X is awfully similar to a same sized
| model on a car yr 2006 from a (different) care maker Y...
| The stamping molds for these large parts are costly
| and there is a busy second hand market for them...
| == Then go to the auto part store where you get after-market
| items.... ahaha... if you know what to look for in the code
| numbers you can see that the different Brands are actually
| made by the same oversea producer... only the final price
| and the adverisments are different.. each of the Brand ads
| assuring you that their part is better... then the identical one
| that is sold by their competitor... ahahaha....
|
| All that is legit and accepted practice.. But what I described
| above first, is not... That is a commonly practiced white collar
| crime... but as long as it's done with mutual consent of the
| parties who play the game to fleece the taxpayers or the
| clueless customers... who is there that complains?...
|
| Remember: "Behind every great fortune there is a crime",
| Honoré de Balzac, Paris, ca. 1840...
| ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA... ahahahanson

"Androcles" <Headmaster at (no spam) Hogwarts.physics> wrote:
Yeah... I was in Van Nuys for the installation of a robotic welding
arm on GM's Camaro and Firebird - the same car with slightly
different head and tail lights. It was quite amusing seeing both
come down the assembly line, a sensor detected the hole where
the tail light would go so that the next operation knew what flavour
to add.

A company I consulted for made carbon paper (still in use today by
traffic wardens and cops who write speeding tickets). In the ever
demanding competitive market of office supplies it was a good idea
to produce a paper that could be re-used 20 times and still leave
a legible copy and an even better idea if it could be re-used 30 times.
So they made one. The EPA closed the plant down. Well, the demand
for carbon paper has vanished with the advent of the computer, so
no point in crying over it.
However, that wasn't what I was consulted for. The same company
made ribbon for printers to churn out individualised utility bills with
all your phone calls listed - so there is still a big market for printers
and ribbon cartridges, they are not all using bubble jet.
What I did was upgrade the productivity of the inking of white ribbon
and monitored the percentage of ink. Increasing productivity was easy,
instead of inking just one spool at a time I reconfigured the inking
machines to ink four spools in parallel and then I doubled the speed of
the machines (they needed new motors to drive them), producing an eight-
fold increase. But here comes the crunch -- the inked ribbon was shipped
to Mexico for assembly into the cartridges, the company simply could
not afford American labour and remain competitive.

hanson wrote:

--
Androcles wrote:
Why did Einstein say
the speed of light from A to B is c-v,
the speed of light from B to A is c+v,
the "time" each way is the same?
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

hanson wrote:

Why are these self-aggrandizing EDs not capable

The
color of tank# 1 (Mn7+) was not violet but deep green (Mn 5+)

"hanson" <hanson at (no spam) quick.net> wrote in news:LuI_j.2582$4c.1314 at (no spam) trnddc08:

hanson wrote:

bz" <bz+sp wrote:

hanson wrote:

"bz" <bz+sp wrote:
Our qual text warned us to never mix con sulfuric with
Potasium permaginate for that reason.
Someone decided to take an old, empty, steam bath outside
the chemistry building, put some KMnO4 and poured con
sulfuric acid on it.
It just sat there.
Until he picked up an old asphalt roofing shingle that was
also laying in the yard and started stirring and tapping the mixture.
The corner of the tile disappeared with a flash and the highest
pitched > 'bang' I have ever heard.
His ROTC uniform developed a bunch of purple ringed holes in it.
[no it wasn't me, I was watching through the glass on the door.
I only had a couple of small holes in my coat.]
[quote http://dwb.unl.edu/chemistry/smallscale/SS023c.html]
teachers should know that mixtures of potassium permanganate and
concentrated sulfuric acid lead to the formation of explosive manganese
oxide, Mn2O7.

hanson wrote:

"bz" <bz+sp wrote:
In other words, that guy [and YOU] were lucky the whole plant
didn't blow up.
Of course, your Mn +5 may have been a bit more stable than
the Mn+5 in Mn2O7, but then you may have just been lucky.
please pardon my infinite ignorance, the set-of-things-I-do-
not-know is an infinite set.

hanson wrote: