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Science Forum Index » Chemistry Forum » Viscosity of water near freezing point
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| Joris Dolderer |
 Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:50 am |
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Guest
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Hello,
An explanation of the anomaly of water is that water molecules form
clusters already over freezing point. Shouldn't this have a huge impact on
viscosity due to the higher mass of the molecules colliding?
Joris |
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| Androcles |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:03 am |
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This message is brought to you by Androcles
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"Joris Dolderer" <stdio@123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:481b000a$0$6774$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
| Hello,
|
| An explanation of the anomaly of water is that water molecules form
| clusters already over freezing point. Shouldn't this have a huge impact on
| viscosity due to the higher mass of the molecules colliding?
|
| Joris
Yes, viscosity increases dramatically as water becomes ice.
Heck, it's worse than treacle and stickier too.
http://maxweber.hunter.cuny.edu/pub/eres/EDSPC715_MCINTYRE/FrozenTongue.jpg |
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| Mark Thorson |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:53 am |
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Joris Dolderer wrote:
Quote:
An explanation of the anomaly of water is that water molecules form
clusters already over freezing point. Shouldn't this have a huge impact
on viscosity due to the higher mass of the molecules colliding?
The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network. |
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| hanson |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 1:53 pm |
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"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:481B3915.B83B635C@sonic.net...
"Joris Dolderer" <stdio@123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:481b000a$0$6774$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
Quote:
"Joris Dolderer wrote":
An explanation of the anomaly of water is that water
molecules form clusters already over freezing point.
Shouldn't this have a huge impact on viscosity due to
the higher mass of the molecules colliding?
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net
The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network.
"hanson" wrote:
Theoretical pontification AND $4 buys you a cup of coffee.
** To measure is the name of the game in physics.**
Indeed water does increase in viscosity as the temp falls,
by a factor of approx six (6) compared to when its hot.
See the measurements in some tables and then make
up your own story/theory why that should be so... or see
what those half million folks have to say about it in the
484,000 google hits for --[ "viscosity of water" temperature ]--.
Good luck, broadie
hanson |
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| hanson |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 5:37 pm |
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Guest
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"hanson" <hanson@quick.net> amended his message
news:2rJSj.45$qW.41@trnddc06...
Quote: "Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:481B3915.B83B635C@sonic.net...
"Joris Dolderer" <stdio@123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:481b000a$0$6774$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:481B3915.B83B635C@sonic.net...
"Joris Dolderer" <stdio@123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:481b000a$0$6774$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
Quote:
"Joris Dolderer wrote":
An explanation of the anomaly of water is that water
molecules form clusters already over freezing point.
Shouldn't this have a huge impact on viscosity due to
the higher mass of the molecules colliding?
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net
The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network.
"hanson" wrote:
Theoretical pontification AND $4 buys you a cup of coffee.
** To measure is the name of the game in physics.**
Indeed water does increase in viscosity as the temp falls,
by a factor of approx six (6) compared to when its hot.
See the measurements in some tables and then make
up your own story/theory why that should be so... or see
what those half million folks have to say about it in the
484,000 google hits for --[ "viscosity of water" temperature ]--.
Good luck, broadie
hanson
In case you are not used to make your own tales = theories
from/about your data, here is how mathematicians do it, like
in this case Baez who looks down on physicists, and insist
that physicists do = "fiddle around" ...& "forget that darn '2' ".
ahahaha... AHAHA... I ain't shitting you, Joris. Here, see for
yourself:
< http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/lengths.html >
Quote:
That practice is certainly true when you look at the posts by
all those Einstein Dingleberries who are constantly and
virulently fiddling about Einstein's crap. ,.... ahahahahanson
> |
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| Mark Thorson |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 6:44 pm |
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Guest
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hanson wrote:
Quote:
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:481B3915.B83B635C@sonic.net...
"Joris Dolderer" <stdio@123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:481b000a$0$6774$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
"Joris Dolderer wrote":
An explanation of the anomaly of water is that water
molecules form clusters already over freezing point.
Shouldn't this have a huge impact on viscosity due to
the higher mass of the molecules colliding?
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net
The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network.
"hanson" wrote:
Theoretical pontification AND $4 buys you a cup of coffee.
You are unfamiliar with the scientific literature,
unlike myself.
Quoting from "Network Defects and Molecular Mobility in Liquid Water",
_Journal_of_Chemical_Physics_, 1992, volume 96, number 5, page 3857:
"Two decades of computer simulation studies on water and aqueous
solutions have immensely broadened our knowledge about this ubiquitous
and unusual liquid. It is now possible to reproduce in a molecular
dynamics (MD) simulation a wide range of measurable properties of
water, from thermodynamics to structure and microdynamics. Thus one
is encouraged to use the simulations to examine features that are not
directly measurable, but of central importance for the understanding
of water structure and dynamics. From such computer simulations, it
is well known that liquid water is a totally connected random network
of hydrogen bonds (HB) -- well above the percolation threshold."
Quoting from "Pentagon-Pentagon Correlations in Water", _Journal_
_of_Physical_Chemistry_, 1985, volume 89, page 172:
"Geiger, Stillinger, and Rahman have shown that the molecules in
water form a single well-connected network."
Quoting from "Theoretical Studies of Hydrogen Bonding in Liquid
Water and Dilute Aqueous Solutions", _Journal_of_Chemical_Physics_,
1981, volume 74, number 1, page 622:
"The network analysis showed the existence of large space-filling
hydrogen bonded networks. The occurrence of monomers was found
to be negligibly small. These findings are in quantitative
agreement with the analysis of molecular dynamics results by
Geiger et al., based on an energetic hydrogen bond definition."
Quoting from "Interpretation of the Unusual Behavior of H2O and
D2O at Low Temperatures", _Journal_of_Chemical_Physics_, 1980,
volume 73, number 7, page 3405:
"The mean number NHB of hydrogen bonds per molecule depends, of
course, on one's definition of hydrogen bond. However, for any
reasonable definition, NHB is sufficiently large that the oxygen
atoms form an infinite connected network or 'gel.' This
hypothesis, which dates back some years, has recently received
strong support from a decisive molecular dynamics calculation
that concerned itself with the _bond_ connectivity of liquid
water and clearly demonstrated that the system is well above
its bond percolation threshold." |
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| hanson |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 7:54 pm |
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Guest
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"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:481BA775.3801E6DC@sonic.net...
Quote:
"Joris Dolderer" <stdio@123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:481b000a$0$6774$9b4e6d93@newsspool2.arcor-online.net...
Quote:
An explanation of the anomaly of water is that water
molecules form clusters already over freezing point.
Shouldn't this have a huge impact on viscosity due to
the higher mass of the molecules colliding?
Quote:
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net
The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network.
Theoretical pontification AND $4 buys you a cup of coffee.
** To measure is the name of the game in physics.**
Indeed water does increase in viscosity as the temp falls,
by a factor of approx six (6) compared to when its hot.
See the measurements in some tables and then make
up your own story/theory why that should be so... or see
what those half million folks have to say about it in the
484,000 google hits for --[ "viscosity of water" temperature ]--.
Quote:
In case you are not used to make your own tales = theories
from/about your data, here is how mathematicians do it, like
in this case Baez who looks down on physicists, and insist
that physicists do = "fiddle around" ...& "forget that darn '2' ".
ahahaha... AHAHA... I ain't shitting you, Joris. Here, see for
yourself:
< http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/lengths.html >
You are unfamiliar with the scientific literature,
unlike myself.
...... ahahahaha.... "unlike yourself"... ahahaha... ahahaha...
So, you told Joris again the same thing by you now parroting
your convictions with a list of refs that say: "It is now possible"
--- "simulation" --- "features that are not directly measurable",
--- "one is encouraged" --- " negligibly small" --- "depends,
of course, on one's definition of hydrogen bond" ... ahahaha...
Quote:
Thorson listen, Joris seems to have a much more scientifically
inquiring mind than you have , you who simply parrots what
you read and fits your agenda. There is a big world out there
beyond the horizon of your lab bench where you make your
living by titrating something. So, intellectually the game is:
-----[ Joris : 1 : Thorson : 0 ]-----
But thanks for the laughs, Mark.... ahahaha.... ahahanson |
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| Mark Thorson |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 9:09 pm |
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Guest
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hanson wrote:
Quote:
Thorson listen, Joris seems to have a much more scientifically
inquiring mind than you have , you who simply parrots what
you read and fits your agenda. There is a big world out there
beyond the horizon of your lab bench where you make your
living by titrating something. So, intellectually the game is:
-----[ Joris : 1 : Thorson : 0 ]-----
But thanks for the laughs, Mark.... ahahaha.... ahahanson
Unlike you, I accept the mainstream theory of water
structure and reject the obsolete "water cluster"
theory. That's because I've read the scientific
literature in this field and understand it.
But if you have any recent (post-1980) literature
you can cite that supports the water cluster theory,
feel free to quote those citations, as I have done
for the mainstream view.
I am quite comfortable standing on the literature
I've already cited. I know that I understand this
matter, and you don't. You haven't read the
important papers, and even if you did, it's unlikely
you would understand them. |
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| hanson |
| Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 10:47 pm |
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Guest
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---- ahahahaha... AHAHAHAHA.... ahahahaha....
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> cranked himself
and he titrated and titrated furiously as he wrote in message
news:481BC946.F1288C50@sonic.net...
http://groups.google.com/group/sci.physics/msg/ae1033fcaf599f5f
Thorson listen, Joris seems to have a much more scientifically
inquiring mind than you have , you who simply parrots what
you read and fits your agenda. There is a big world out there
beyond the horizon of your lab bench where you make your
living by titrating something. So, intellectually the game is:
-----[ Joris : 1 : Thorson : 0 ]-----
But thanks for the laughs, Mark.... ahahaha.... ahahanson
Unlike you, I accept the mainstream theory of water structure
and reject the obsolete "water cluster" theory. That's because
I've read the scientific literature in this field and understand it.
But if you have any recent (post-1980) literature you can cite
that supports the water cluster theory, feel free to quote those
citations, as I have done for the mainstream view. I am quite
comfortable standing on the literature I've already cited.
I know that I understand this matter, and you don't. You haven't
read the important papers, and even if you did, it's unlikely you
would understand them.
ahahahaha... Nobody here has doubted you convictions and
your citations. They are undoubtedly mentioned many times
over in the 484,000 goggle hits I alluded to earlier before your
fixation on "water clusters" caused your brain to spasm... ahaha
Quote:
Let me suggest again, my titrating friend from the lab bench,
for YOUR benefit, that : This issue is not about me! It is not even
about any cluster-theory. It is about you and Joris. ... She who
has a scientific, inquiring mind set -- versus your personal spec-
following, direction taking mentation, which is an essential
characteristic that any good lab worker should have. Be proud
of it. Therefore, it should not crank you that the game is
-----[ Joris : 1 : Thorson : 0 ]-----
Lab workers like you with some ken and acumen are as
essential in the greater scheme of things as are the inquisitive
questioning types like Joris'.
Therefore to make you happy, Mark, let me assure you, when
it comes to providing laughs: YOU WIN. On that level the score is
-----[ Joris : 0 : Thorson : 6 ]-----
Are you happy now?
Thanks for the laughs, you Dreidel.... ahahahaha... ahahanson |
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| Androcles |
| Posted: Sat May 03, 2008 2:03 am |
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Guest
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This message is brought to you by Androcles
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"Mark Thorson" <nospam@sonic.net> wrote in message
news:481BC946.F1288C50@sonic.net...
| hanson wrote:
| >
| > Thorson listen, Joris seems to have a much more scientifically
| > inquiring mind than you have , you who simply parrots what
| > you read and fits your agenda. There is a big world out there
| > beyond the horizon of your lab bench where you make your
| > living by titrating something. So, intellectually the game is:
| > -----[ Joris : 1 : Thorson : 0 ]-----
| > But thanks for the laughs, Mark.... ahahaha.... ahahanson
|
| Unlike you, I accept the mainstream theory of water
| structure and reject the obsolete "water cluster"
| theory. That's because I've read the scientific
| literature in this field and understand it.
|
| But if you have any recent (post-1980) literature
| you can cite that supports the water cluster theory,
| feel free to quote those citations, as I have done
| for the mainstream view.
|
| I am quite comfortable standing on the literature
| I've already cited. I know that I understand this
| matter, and you don't. You haven't read the
| important papers, and even if you did, it's unlikely
| you would understand them.
What a sanctimonious fuckin' dork...
*plonk* |
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| Joris Dolderer... |
| Posted: Mon May 05, 2008 11:47 pm |
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Guest
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On Fri, 02 May 2008 08:53:57 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
Quote: The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network.
But, then, freezing should be a continuous process rather than an abrupt
effect.
Joris |
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| N:dlzc D:aol T:com (dlzc)... |
| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 8:06 am |
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Guest
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Dear Joris Dolderer:
"Joris Dolderer" <stdio at (no spam) 123mail.cl> wrote in message
news:481fe2c7$0$6545$9b4e6d93 at (no spam) newsspool3.arcor-online.net...
Quote: On Fri, 02 May 2008 08:53:57 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network.
But, then, freezing should be a continuous
process rather than an abrupt effect.
A "continuous network" that constantly rearranges and
re-estabishes, is different than the long range order of crystal
formation.
David A. Smith |
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| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Tue May 06, 2008 10:28 am |
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Guest
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Joris Dolderer wrote:
Quote:
On Fri, 02 May 2008 08:53:57 -0700, Mark Thorson wrote:
The water cluster model has been obsolete
for about 30 years. Computer modelling
shows that for any reasonable value of
the strength of the hydrogen bond, water
forms a continuous network.
But, then, freezing should be a continuous process
rather than an abrupt effect.
Why would you think that? Water undergoes a profound
structural transition when freezing, as indicated by
its expansion when freezing. Very few materials
expand when they freeze. |
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| Joris Dolderer... |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 12:34 pm |
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Quote: A "continuous network" that constantly rearranges and re-estabishes, is
different than the long range order of crystal formation.
Oh wonder: There are forces between water molecules!
For me, the definition of a "continuous network" is that it doesn't break
up only due to the temperatural movement of the water molecules (for the
molecules' big majority). Does your "continuous network" do that?
Joris |
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| Mark Thorson... |
| Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 2:00 pm |
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Guest
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Joris Dolderer wrote:
Quote:
A "continuous network" that constantly rearranges and re-estabishes, is
different than the long range order of crystal formation.
Oh wonder: There are forces between water molecules!
For me, the definition of a "continuous network" is that it doesn't break
up only due to the temperatural movement of the water molecules (for the
molecules' big majority). Does your "continuous network" do that?
No. The term "continuous network" only implies that there
are few free water molecules. All or nearly all molecules
are hydrogen-bonded into the network, however these bonds
are changing all the time, very rapidly and temperature-
dependent. |
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