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Science Forum Index » Electronics - Basics Forum » Surge / Ground / Lightning
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| w_tom |
 Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:08 am |
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Guest
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On May 1, 12:21 pm, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
Quote: He says appliance/ electronics manufacturers put surge
protection inside the appliance and that is peachy keen
and appropriate. Yet he can't explain how it is that an
MOV inside the electronics actually protects, while an
MOV located in a plug-in is useless.
If trader read what was posted rather than entertain his
assumptions, then trader would understand appliances contain internal
protection. When trader misread, then trader reclessly invented MOVs
to provide internal protection. What w_tom posted is not found in
trader's wild speculation.
With a grasp of technology, then trader would have known industry
standard numbers that defined internal electronics protection even 35
years ago. Trader does not know these numbers. Trader then assumed
that protection must be provided by MOVs. Trader - learn technology
BEFORE knowing everything. You have no idea of protection inside all
appliances. By reading reclessly and by using wild speculation and
ignorance, trader assumes protection must be provided by MOVs.
Protection inside appliances is integrated within appliance
design. Internal appliance protection that may be overwhelmed if a
'whole house' protector is not installed and properly earthed.
Nothing in that paragraph discusses MOVs. MOVs inside appliances is
another trader 'wild speculation' due to knowledge without first
learning the technology.
We earth a 'whole house' protector AND connect all protectors short
(ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground so that
protection inside all appliances is not overwhelmed. Simple stuff
that so confused trader. trader *assumed* MOVs rather than read what
was posted. trader again demonstrates insufficient technical
kowledge justifies his mockery and insult. Mythical MOV inside
appliances demonstrate that trader only reads what he wants to see;
not what is posted.
MOVs inside appliances is another trader myth. Had trader read what
was posted or learned technology, then trader would not invent
fictional MOVs inside appliances. |
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| bud-- |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:24 am |
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Guest
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w_tom wrote:
Quote: On Apr 30, 3:10 pm, trad...@optonline.net wrote:
Maybe he taken a hiatus after the right propper whopping he got here
last week. I thought it was hillarious after he derided the makers
of plug-in surge protectors and then gave us his list of "real
companies", like Intermatic, GE, Leviton, etc., that were experts at
it. Only problem was, all of the companies on his list sell plug-in
ones too.
But, effective
protectors are sold only by companies with high reputations.
Effective 'whole house'
protectors are sold by GE, Leviton, Square D, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer,
Keison, and Intermatic - to name but a few.
On cue w_ comes up with the list of "responsible manufacturers" trader
referred to. All of them make plug-in suppressors but SquareD.
For the SquareD 'best' service panel suppressor - SDSB1175C
- The literature says "electronic equipment may need additional
protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use."
- The connected equipment warranty $ is double when the suppressors "is
used in conjunction with ... a point of use surge protective device."
For the next best suppressor - QO2175SB and HOM2175SB
- The connected equipment warranty $ does not include "electronic
devices such as: microwave ovens, audio and stereo components, video
equipment, televisions, and computers."
It appears none of w_'s companies has a high reputation.
Still never seen - any source that agrees with w_ that plug-in
suppressors are NOT effective. It is w_ against the universe.
--
bud-- |
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| w_tom |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:30 am |
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On May 1, 2:18 pm, ransley <Mark_Rans...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote: Whaaat, you say my Triplights that offer a life time warranty to
damages from from surges and lightning offer non such claim or
warranty, thats pure barf. Triplight surge protectors are only one
step a homeowner needs to hopefully protect you. Ive been hit several
times, anything you do helps a bit.
Actually some things installed will decrease protection - ie the TV
destroyed because the plug-in protector earthed an 8000 volt surge
through it. Gross assumptions are also behind that warranty. Did you
read the fine print and learn from so many others who never got that
warranty honored?
For example, some plujg-in protectors state that a protector from
any other manufacturer in the building means their warranty is void.
Another says that if you don't submit the claim on their forms, the
claim may be rejected. Another says reinbursement is based on
depreciation meaning the computer has zero value in a few years.
Another says that every electrical conductor that touches that
appliance must connect through their protector. Did they forget to
mention that a table top is considered an electrical conductor? How
many fine print exemptions make a warranty void? Fine print is chock
full of exemptions. Warranty says nothing about protection.
Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation
entitled "UPS for computer and TV"
Quote: I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved
together with the purchase receipt, and contacted
them to submit a warranty claim. I was nice and
polite and had everything documented including
photos of their product installed next to the fax.
They laughed in my face. Almost could not have
been more insulting.
I wrote to the executive management of the company,
copied customer service, sent both return receipt to
prove they received them, and never got the courtesy
of a reply.
Did that protector do protection? Well, how many dishwashers have
been surge damaged during the same surges? How many dimmer switches?
Where are these surges that the Tripplite protected from? Only way
you know that Tripplite provided protection is when everything else -
every smoke detector, clock radio, dimmer switch, washing machine, etc
was destroyed. You have no idea what that Tripplite did. In fact,
Page 42 Figure 8 - the Tripplite may even make create damage to other
items in that room. |
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| ransley |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:17 pm |
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Guest
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On May 1, 3:30 pm, w_tom <w_t...@usa.net> wrote:
Quote: On May 1, 2:18 pm, ransley <Mark_Rans...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Whaaat, you say my Triplights that offer a life time warranty to
damages from from surges and lightning offer non such claim or
warranty, thats pure barf. Triplight surge protectors are only one
step a homeowner needs to hopefully protect you. Ive been hit several
times, anything you do helps a bit.
Actually some things installed will decrease protection - ie the TV
destroyed because the plug-in protector earthed an 8000 volt surge
through it. Gross assumptions are also behind that warranty. Did you
read the fine print and learn from so many others who never got that
warranty honored?
For example, some plujg-in protectors state that a protector from
any other manufacturer in the building means their warranty is void.
Another says that if you don't submit the claim on their forms, the
claim may be rejected. Another says reinbursement is based on
depreciation meaning the computer has zero value in a few years.
Another says that every electrical conductor that touches that
appliance must connect through their protector. Did they forget to
mention that a table top is considered an electrical conductor? How
many fine print exemptions make a warranty void? Fine print is chock
full of exemptions. Warranty says nothing about protection.
Steve Uhrig on 17 Jun 2003 in the newsgroup comp.home.automation
entitled "UPS for computer and TV"
I read the terms of their warranty, which I had saved
together with the purchase receipt, and contacted
them to submit a warranty claim. I was nice and
polite and had everything documented including
photos of their product installed next to the fax.
They laughed in my face. Almost could not have
been more insulting.
I wrote to the executive management of the company,
copied customer service, sent both return receipt to
prove they received them, and never got the courtesy
of a reply.
Did that protector do protection? Well, how many dishwashers have
been surge damaged during the same surges? How many dimmer switches?
Where are these surges that the Tripplite protected from? Only way
you know that Tripplite provided protection is when everything else -
every smoke detector, clock radio, dimmer switch, washing machine, etc
was destroyed. You have no idea what that Tripplite did. In fact,
Page 42 Figure 8 - the Tripplite may even make create damage to other
items in that room.
Actualy, Double U, bottom slasch, TOM , I had about a $30,000 strike,
Tripp was warranting it, and I let my insurance Co go after it. It was
bad, even flourescents 3 floors down lit from PLASMA energy. Tripp
was there,You are a negative |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:24 pm |
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In alt.tv.tech.hdtv bud-- <remove.budnews@isp.com> wrote:
| For the SquareD 'best' service panel suppressor - SDSB1175C
| - The literature says "electronic equipment may need additional
| protection by installing plug-in [suppressors] at the point of use."
| - The connected equipment warranty $ is double when the suppressors "is
| used in conjunction with ... a point of use surge protective device."
And do you understand the scientific basis why this is so? I doubt it.
| For the next best suppressor - QO2175SB and HOM2175SB
| - The connected equipment warranty $ does not include "electronic
| devices such as: microwave ovens, audio and stereo components, video
| equipment, televisions, and computers."
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| It appears none of w_'s companies has a high reputation.
Or maybe it's a different type of suppressor. Did you even look? Sadly,
when marketing gets in control, they tend to hide the imporant engineering
and scientific details. It even happens with companies like Square-D.
Maybe you should look at the Eaton-Cutler-Hammer devices.
| Still never seen - any source that agrees with w_ that plug-in
| suppressors are NOT effective. It is w_ against the universe.
The only sources you are looking at simply give a generic list of what kinds
of things you might use. There are no scientific explanations to help you
figure out what is needed in your particular situation for you to achieve the
level of protection you want. OTOH, I have my doubts about your ability to
understand the science, so that may explain why they limited things to a few
simplistic illustrations in what is really just a "to do" guide that does not
cover all situations or all levels of protection.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:45 pm |
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In alt.tv.tech.hdtv trader4@optonline.net wrote:
| And also never heard an explanation from w_ about the inherrent
| conflict in another aspect of his position. He says appliance/
| electronics manufacturers put surge protection inside the appliance
| and that is peachy keen and appropriate. Yet he can't explain how
| it is that an MOV inside the electronics actually protects, while an
| MOV located in a plug-in is useless. Unless there is a magical earth
| ground inside the electronic appliance, it must operate under the same
| conditions as the plug-in. Geez, that inescapable conflict must give
| w_ nightmares.
Do you know what the acronym for Plug In Surge Suppressor is? :-)
In the case that there is an MOV inside, the MOV in the plug-in unit will
not provide as much _increment_ in benefit. However, if the appliance is
interconnected with others, then the _increment_ in benefit from a plug-in
unit will be greater as long as the other appliances are connected through
a common plug-in unit.
An MOV can protect against slow rise surges (which are the majority of
events) by means of balancing the voltage difference between any two
wires it is connected to. When the MOV conducts during such a surge, it
reduces the voltage _difference_ between wires. Different points inside
the appliance will then all rise in voltage approximately the same. As
long as that voltage difference is reasonably low, the device is protected.
Note that devices interconnected to other devices in the case described
above will have issues with the voltage across that interconnection.
If all the interconnected devices are powered through the same plug-in
suppressor, the voltage differences can be more effectively equalized.
In the case of NOT using a common plug-in unit for interconnected devices,
the risk for differences in voltage is at least minimized by using the same
branch circuit, or even better, the same outlet with a non-protective power
strip. As the surge propogates through the building wiring, it is not at
the same voltage potential throughout.
The level of protection provided in this case is greater for lower frequency
energy, and less for higher frequency energy. Just how much higher frequency
energy you get depends on where the lightning hits. Other protection that
provides a low impedance path to ground will also be more effective against
low frequency energy. The further away the lightning strike is, the more it
loses energy through conductor inductance and alternate paths to ground.
The inductance blocks higher frequency energy while the paths to ground work
best against the lower frequency energy.
--
|WARNING: Due to extreme spam, I no longer see any articles originating from |
| Google Groups. If you want your postings to be seen by more readers |
| you will need to find a different place to post on Usenet. |
| Phil Howard KA9WGN (email for humans: first name in lower case at ipal.net) | |
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| Tantalust |
| Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 8:54 pm |
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Guest
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<trader4@optonline.net> wrote
Quote: Maybe he taken a hiatus after the right propper whopping he got here
last week. I thought it was hillarious after he derided the makers
of plug-in surge protectors and then gave us his list of "real
companies", like Intermatic, GE, Leviton, etc., that were experts at
it. Only problem was, all of the companies on his list sell plug-in
ones too.
Huh, so according to all of w_'s sermons, Bud must be working overtime as a
salesman for all of those companies too? Busy guy! |
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