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Science Forum Index » Physics - Particle Forum » W and Z ~ Created from whole cloth?
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| Robert Karl Stonjek |
 Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:47 pm |
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Hi Guys,
I was just thinking about protium the other day and it occurred to me that
as it has only one proton and no neutron, there must be no W and Z
particles. This raised a couple of quick questions:
1) when protium becomes Deuterium, ie one proton and one neutron, where do
the W and Z particles come from?
2) if they come from the proton and/or neutron, does the mass of these
particles change ie is the mass of the proton in protium greater than when
in any other atom?
3) where do the W and Z particles go when Deuterium decays?
I assume that they are some kind of virtual particle (boson), but that
answer does not seem to be entirely satisfactory
--
Kind Regards
Robert Karl Stonjek |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:03 pm |
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On Apr 26, 7:47 pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <ston...@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
Quote: 3) where do the W and Z particles go when Deuterium decays?
Could you please say more about Deuterium decay in terms of
observables? I've always considered deuterium to be a stable isotope.
I have never practiced any special precautions when handling
deuterated compounds. Was I wrong? |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 9:12 pm |
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On Apr 27, 10:47 pm, "Robert Karl Stonjek" <ston...@ozemail.com.au>
wrote:
Quote: If such stripping occurs, what happens to the W and Z particles? Or, in a
similar vein, where do the W and Z particles come from when deuterium forms
(I understand that most of it formed in the big bang).
I think you need to distinguish between observables and non-
observables. When you replace the proton for the deuteron in heavy
water you have a set of observable property changes. The extra neutron
in the deuteron has mass so you can easily measure a differerent
density, for example. I don't think it is worth asking existential
questions about particles that are not observable. That's just me, I'm
a practitioner of the black arts that work. Call me an engineer if you
wish. I'm no theoretical speculative philosopher. |
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| Robert Karl Stonjek |
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:47 am |
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Quote: 3) where do the W and Z particles go when Deuterium decays?
Could you please say more about Deuterium decay in terms of
observables? I've always considered deuterium to be a stable isotope.
I have never practiced any special precautions when handling
deuterated compounds. Was I wrong?
RKS:
It is my understanding that all elements decay except iron. On further
thought, Deuterium decays into helium (discussed in the context of
hypothetical fusion reactors and I have seen it discussed with respect to
biological reactions, but I know little of the details of this).
Even so, there is most probably some condition under which a deuterium atom
will lose a neutron ie "deuterium stripping".
If such stripping occurs, what happens to the W and Z particles? Or, in a
similar vein, where do the W and Z particles come from when deuterium forms
(I understand that most of it formed in the big bang).
Robert
PS for all practical purposes, deuterium is stable (not that you were about
to panic on my say so  |
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| Robert Karl Stonjek |
| Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:44 am |
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Quote: If such stripping occurs, what happens to the W and Z particles? Or, in a
similar vein, where do the W and Z particles come from when deuterium
forms
(I understand that most of it formed in the big bang).
I think you need to distinguish between observables and non-
observables. When you replace the proton for the deuteron in heavy
water you have a set of observable property changes. The extra neutron
in the deuteron has mass so you can easily measure a differerent
density, for example. I don't think it is worth asking existential
questions about particles that are not observable. That's just me, I'm
a practitioner of the black arts that work. Call me an engineer if you
wish. I'm no theoretical speculative philosopher.
RKS:
I just assumed that this was a well trodden path that was well researched
and had ready answers to the questions I posed - they seemed fairly straight
forward.
If we compare the question on W and Z to another Boson, say the photon, the
answers are all reasonably straight forward - an electron emitting a photon
loses an amount of energy equal to that taken off by the photon. Upon
absorbing a photon, an electron gains energy. Thus the energy-mass of the
electron does change.
I thought there might be an answer along the same lines for the W and Z ~
didn't realise I had to venture into a lab and weigh up the little fellers
for myself.
Robert |
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