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Science Forum Index » Mathematics Forum » JSH: The circular argument
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| amy666 |
 Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:42 am |
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fishfry wrote :
Quote: In article
8acccf72-4cb4-45f8-8a8d-3b1aff8dfcb5@v26g2000prm.goog
legroups.com>,
JSH <jstevh@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ask people how we know that mathematicians
do not lie about
mathematics, usually you get the answer that other
mathematicians
would tell you if they did!!! But what if MOST
mathematicians lie
about research?
Then wouldn't there still be SOME mathematicians
complaining that most
mathematicians lie? Where are the complainers?
well that depends.
in set theory there are indeed "complainers".
the complaints are usually related to AC , CH or its weaker or stronger forms.
set theory claims proved by computers are heavily argued.
in calculus however , there are very few complainers compared to set theory.
however a calculus proof by computer can still be disputed.
as vladimar bondarenco ( or whats his name ) shows even simple integrals can be wrongly computed by computer software.
regards
tommy1729 |
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| Julio Di Egidio |
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 2:56 pm |
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drtek wrote:
Quote:
"JSH" <jstevh@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f1884bc1-7f08-45f9-8f06-943e627b001a@y18g2000pre.
googlegroups.com...
Mathematics is the ONLY major field left in our
modern world that gets
away with just going on group opinion, which is so
ironic since our
modern technological world could not exist without
correct
mathematics.
not so, what about;
Religion, Politics, Government, Finance, Water
Companies, Newspapers,
Hollywood, ..........
Actually, those are the guys who *lie with numbers*. That's, indeed, how and why mathematicians (and I really mean them) have a fundamental role in _any_ case. They should indeed take their responsibility with this, that is denounce it and rectify it as much as needed and possible. I suppose "correcting mathematics" is going to become a preeminent activity over "extending mathematics" in the near future. Please, fellows mathematicians, be there, we want you, we need you.
Julio |
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| gernic |
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:03 pm |
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<porky_pig_jr@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:68d53646-7189-4849-826a-6ed6058b8b3b@a23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Quote: On Apr 12, 6:32 pm, JSH <jst...@gmail.com> wrote:
James Harris
Are you real James Harris, or are you Sears' James Harris?
he is the "Pee Wee" James Harris with striped high water pants and white
bowling shoes with black socks. |
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| Julio Di Egidio |
| Posted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:04 pm |
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vector wrote:
Quote: JSH wrote:
IF you do not kiss their butts they will break you.
That reality
is what defines modern math.
They broke Grigori Perelman by giving him the Fields
Medal.
Go figure.
After reading the story at Wikipedia, I'd say it's crystal clear: equator of self-contradiction. When mathematics cannot distinguish contradiction and falsity, it cannot get the difference between wrong and lying. I guess Mr Perelman is there to complement his proof, that is until mathematics does not digest it.
Julio |
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| Julio Di Egidio |
| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:38 pm |
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Mr Wayne Brown wrote:
Quote: In sci.math JSH <jstevh@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ask people how we know that mathematicians
do not lie about
mathematics, usually you get the answer that other
mathematicians
would tell you if they did!!! But what if MOST
mathematicians lie
about research?
remainder of paranoia snipped
It's amazing. No matter how many months between my
visits to sci.math,
nothing changes. This idiot Harris still is cranking
away, and
intelligent people still are trying to show him the
error(s) of his ways.
I guess it's comforting to know, in a changing world,
that some things
are constant: The ignorance of JSH and the optimism
of those who hope
to educate him are everlasting.
I would rather call Mr JSH an over-optimistic, while the paranoid is you.
Mathematicians are not a special category, they lie just as the whole of our (globalized) world lies: people lie to other people, in fact people lie to themselves, and the very essence of our civilization is lies and only lies, in the name of which any crime is sacred.
No, mathematicians are not special on this, it is rather a peculiarity of our culture of death: we cannot stand dying without killing everything around us at the same time. It's our price, the price of a civilization who kills to deny its deadly stinking rotten spiritual death.
"That passed away, this also can."
Indeed.
Julio
Quote:
--
Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net
Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away,
this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v) |
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| Julio Di Egidio |
| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:52 pm |
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Mr Mr. R wrote:
Quote: If being liked is the result of
your so-called
"Butt Kissing," I think it happens everywhere.
This is true. But keep in mind FALSITY is more foundational then TRUTH. That is, what counts in our world is actually not to be DISLIKED (and, ultimately, abused and killed); that is why we butt-kiss, otherwise nobody would really care.
Quote: Some
would even
venture to say that it happens most outside the arena
of mathematics.
This is FALSE. There is no distinction and mathematicians are not special in this: everybody lie in the only arena that there is, the cage we have built around ourselves, that is.
Quote: But who's to say. May there's a ill arranged proof
of the fact.
I'm sure there was a matter in point, however, I
believe I missed
it.
Indeed, that was the whole point: you cannot get it until you miss it, can you? To tell it with Rosser: I am false, you are dead, he is responsible, we kill him, you grave us, they enjoy being absent.
Julio
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| Wayne Brown |
| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 3:53 pm |
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In sci.math JSH <jstevh@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote: If you ask people how we know that mathematicians do not lie about
mathematics, usually you get the answer that other mathematicians
would tell you if they did!!! But what if MOST mathematicians lie
about research?
<remainder of paranoia snipped>
It's amazing. No matter how many months between my visits to sci.math,
nothing changes. This idiot Harris still is cranking away, and
intelligent people still are trying to show him the error(s) of his ways.
I guess it's comforting to know, in a changing world, that some things
are constant: The ignorance of JSH and the optimism of those who hope
to educate him are everlasting.
--
Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net>
Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v) |
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| JSH |
| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:29 pm |
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On Apr 25, 3:38 pm, Julio Di Egidio <ju...@diegidio.name> wrote:
Quote: Mr Wayne Brown wrote:
In sci.math JSH <jst...@gmail.com> wrote:
If you ask people how we know that mathematicians
do not lie about
mathematics, usually you get the answer that other
mathematicians
would tell you if they did!!! But what if MOST
mathematicians lie
about research?
remainder of paranoia snipped
It's amazing. No matter how many months between my
visits to sci.math,
nothing changes. This idiot Harris still is cranking
away, and
intelligent people still are trying to show him the
error(s) of his ways.
I guess it's comforting to know, in a changing world,
that some things
are constant: The ignorance of JSH and the optimism
of those who hope
to educate him are everlasting.
I would rather call Mr JSH an over-optimistic, while the paranoid is you.
Mathematicians are not a special category, they lie just as the whole of our (globalized) world lies: people lie to other people, in fact people lie to themselves, and the very essence of our civilization is lies and only lies, in the name of which any crime is sacred.
And "sacred" is preferred for crimes. What society has not turned to
religion to sanctify its murders?
Our modern "mathematicians" play like they are beyond humanity in some
noble realm beyond lies, but the reality is that if they were, they
wouldn't try to claim the absurd.
They wouldn't need to engage in the exercise.
The attacks on me from people like "Wayne Brown" are about the
reality: you attack the truth if you are from a world of lies.
And we are all in one way or another from a world of lies.
Quote: No, mathematicians are not special on this, it is rather a peculiarity of our culture of death: we cannot stand dying without killing everything around us at the same time. It's our price, the price of a civilization who kills to deny its deadly stinking rotten spiritual death.
"That passed away, this also can."
Indeed.
Julio
But mathematics really is beyond us in many ways so that discovery is
about finding some piece of it to hold on to and in that piece find
you won little truth.
There is no proof without truth. But "proof" is just words away.
Any person can claim to have proven anything they fancy. (Like
Wiles...)
But the discoverers fight the battles, make the climbs and take the
pain--and oh this world gives them so much pain so without the pain
you know you haven't done anything or discovered anything--to find.
Lies define humanity in times like these more than truth.
But eventually the pendulum swings...
And for some it doesn't matter because regardless of what the world
presents they must be who they are. And for some, discovery is
nothing about anyone else.
It is all about what's inside of them, driving them. Come what may.
I will learn until I die. I want no other choice.
James Harris |
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| Julio Di Egidio |
| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:39 pm |
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Mr James Harris wrote:
Quote: Lies define humanity in times like these more than
truth.
But eventually the pendulum swings...
Oh man, this is where you risk to be over-optimistic...
Quote:
And for some it doesn't matter because regardless of
what the world
presents they must be who they are. And for some,
discovery is
nothing about anyone else.
It is all about what's inside of them, driving them.
Come what may.
I will learn until I die. I want no other choice.
Ghhhhh, and here you made me cry: this is true poetry, at last.
Julio
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| Jesse F. Hughes |
| Posted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:47 pm |
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Tomoko Kanazawa dom arigato <huangxienchen@yahoo.com> writes:
Quote: ATTN: James Harris
I really cannot believe you are such a complete idiot. After I TOLD
you repeatedly how you can finally win your case.
It is _very_simple_ James. Very, very simple.
Mathematicians will tell you that something either exists or it does
not. That there is no in-between. Yet, they have no proof of this.
DEMAND PROOF James !!! Demand a proof that existence is a dichotomy.
THERE IS NONE. You see James ? You can catch them in a LIE !!!
Now you have your evidence against them. You know what to do.
Is there any particular reason that a two-week old JSH post is
generating replies?
I blame Google.
--
Jesse F. Hughes
"If mathematics doesn't recognize its social dependencies, then
perpetual slavery is just around the corner."
-- Han de Bruin, on why set theory is a capitalist tool |
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| Wayne Brown |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:13 am |
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Julio Di Egidio <julio@diegidio.name> wrote <24007705.1209163146996.JavaMail.jakarta@nitrogen.mathforum.org> in sci.math:
Quote:
Mathematicians are not a special category, they lie just as the whole of our (globalized) world lies: people lie to other people, in fact people lie to themselves, and the very essence of our civilization is lies and only lies, in the name of which any crime is sacred.
No, mathematicians are not special on this, it is rather a peculiarity of our culture of death: we cannot stand dying without killing everything around us at the same time. It's our price, the price of a civilization who kills to deny its deadly stinking rotten spiritual death.
Ah, I see. Harris is a mathematics nutjob; you're a philosophy/sociology
nutjob. "Hail fellow, well met!" should be the watchword for the two
of you.
Hint: You might wish to investigate the meanings of the terms "line
length" and "word-wrap" as they apply to your writing.
--
Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net>
Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v) |
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| Wayne Brown |
| Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2008 9:13 am |
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Jesse F. Hughes <jesse@phiwumbda.org> wrote <87tzhp5lb7.fsf@phiwumbda.org> in sci.math:
Quote:
Is there any particular reason that a two-week old JSH post is
generating replies?
In my case, it's because I haven't been here for a year or so, and this
is the most recent JSH article I've found.
--
Wayne Brown <fwbrown@bellsouth.net>
Þæs ofereode, ðisses swa mæg. ("That passed away, this also can.")
from "Deor," in the Exeter Book (folios 100r-100v) |
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