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Science Forum Index » Mechanics Forum » The New X-Prize...again
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Thu Apr 03, 2008 11:42 pm |
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Guest
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The new X-Prize is for a car that gets 100 miles-per-gallon and like the
previous X-Prize is for ten million dollars...
Now there are a lot of rules but in general the car must get 100 MPG, it
must reach a performance level (but not high performance), it must have four
wheels (if it's in the four seat category), it must be possible to
manufacture, and it will be compared to other entries.
I can do this but really I'm too busy at this time...and the prototype would
cost about $250,000 to shop produce.
------------------------------------------------------
The above is from my first posting about the 100 MPG X-Prize...
And since the car must be possible to manufacture and will be compared to
the other cars we can say that the car must be practical.
Also the car must have a climate control system and the car must be current
automotive emission standards.
And I've been looking around but I see that I am not going to be able to
raise the $250,000 I need to produce a prototype vehicle.
So I'll just lay my cards on the table...
The best that I would have been able to do with the mere $250,000 would be
to get a Caterham Super7 kit car in the extra wide version but special order
the frame in aluminum rather than steel. And I could't use a motorcycle
engine and transmission (which could save 300 pounds in weight) so I would
use the smallest 4-cylinder engine currently available and certified for
emissions standards in the U.S. market (like a 1.5 Yaris engine). Then I
would have to find a transmission for the engine since the car frame that I
am using is for rear-wheel-drive. Next I would take the car to an Italian
design studio and have them design a bodywork and shape for the car. And the
thin flexible fiberglass or Lexan bodywork would attach to mounting points
but also push down over plastic shapers. Of course a master fiberglass shop
would have to make and fit the bodywork. That's Car A and would weigh about
1200 pounds. The Car A result would be about 75 MPG in highway driving...
So the problem with Car A is the weight but I can't go to a motorcycle
engine to save weight because I would have to develop the motorcycle engine
to meet emission standards...and that's too much for me.
And I can't lighten Car A with a smaller frame because a strong frame is
necessary for a practical car. Why ? Well for example a large adult often
gets on a very small child's bicycle and leans into a curve. Then the
bicycle goes into a big wiggle. That big wiggle is the frame becoming a
spring. So a car that can go 0 to 60 mph in 12 seconds and that can also go
100 mph top speed...must have a strong frame or else it could wiggle off the
road. In other words frame strength is very important for a car while not so
important for something like a 10 mph golf cart...
And also very small tires can't be used on a practical car because turning
into a corner could turn small tires into liquid rubber and let the car run
wide in a curve. In other words the current tire design of being wide but
also having a short sidewall is a tire that holds up to the demands of the
car but also a tire that does not wiggle. And a tire that does not wiggle is
a tire that saves fuel...
Now Car B would be the same as Car A but would have the 2.0 Solstice
turbocharged engine that makes 260 horsepower and 260 foot-pounds of torque.
Why ? Well to take advantage of the high torque at low RPM but to ignore the
high horsepower at high RPM. In other words Car B would have the engine
speed limited to make an ultra-low RPM engine. Then the 0 to 60 mph run of
Car B would likely fully use five gears while Car A could make 60 shortly
after hitting third gear. And again Car B takes advantage of the low RPM
torque but avoids high RPM fuel draw. And Car B would weigh about 1300
pounds while the MPG result would be about 70 MPG. Also Car B might
practically need an automatic transmission for the short shift points...
Now I see the first X-Prize event is September 2009 and that means that I
could build Car C.
Car C would be the same as Car A but Car C would use the 2009 VW 2.0 diesel
engine. Car C would weigh 1300 pounds and the MPG result would be about 90
MPG. Oh hey, 90 MPG is getting close to the requirement. But there is no way
to get the extra 10 MPG. Weight, tires, aerodynamics, and everything else
has already been considered. For instance the car is low, has a smooth
shape, has a front spoiler, and has side skirts. And the car might also have
secondary flexible skirts all the way around that hang down to within 1/2"
of the ground. (But moveable aerodymanic devices are banned on race cars by
international agreement.)
Now Cars A, B, and C are based on a convertible car that does not have doors
or windows. So the newly designed bodywork would likely have a top that
swings back to allow the driver and passenger to step in. And these cars are
two-seat cars. Now consider a two-seat car that does have traditional doors
and windows and the weight goes to 1500 pounds. Consider a four seat
four-door car and the the weight of a practical car goes to 2200 pounds.
(Keep in mind that a carbon fiber frame car would be too expensive.)
So the 100 MPG X-Prize car can't be done as a practical car unless a
motorcycle engine is brought up to automotive emission standards. And the
motorcycle engine and transmission would have a difficult shifting
linkage...
Now one of the X-Prize entries is a 900 pound car with a 50 horsepower
diesel engine. Of course that does it. But is the frame a practical strength
? Are the tires a practical size ? Is the car a practical cost ? Well...if
the 50 horsepower diesel is about the same weight as a motorcycle engine and
if it meets emission standards...then that does it. Most of the weight would
be in the frame of the car with a very light engine... |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:02 am |
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Guest
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Oh, if Car B fully uses five gears in a 0 to 60 mph maximum acceleration run
then it needs
an overdrive sixth gear for the top speed requirement. Of course it would
have an overdrive gear anyway...
And Car C would have the RPM limited similar to Car B. |
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| greysky |
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:16 pm |
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Guest
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"PolicySpy" <PIntell@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:dIiJj.17192$%15.9252@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
Quote: Oh, if Car B fully uses five gears in a 0 to 60 mph maximum acceleration
run then it needs
an overdrive sixth gear for the top speed requirement. Of course it would
have an overdrive gear anyway...
And Car C would have the RPM limited similar to Car B.
I once designed a car that would get an estimated 150 MPG. The secret is to
make your engine with an operating temp of >2,000 degrees F. Gas combusts
very efficiently at those temps. Only problem was the ceramic engine didn't
last long enough and the insulating jacket kept breaking down, and the
engine cost too much to replace.
Greysky |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 1:15 pm |
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Guest
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Oh, I said a two-seat car using an automotive engine and transmission could
come in at 1300 pounds with a tilt-back top. Then a two-seat car with doors
and side windows could come in at 1500 pounds.
Now a very small four-seat car could come in at 1700 pounds while a larger
four-seat car could come in at 2200 pounds.
And that's based on a strong tubular frame with a lightweight fiberglass or
Lexan bodywork. |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:14 pm |
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Guest
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Oh, VW has 1.2, 1.4, 1.7, 1.9, and 2.0 tubo diesels...
But only the 1.9 diesel engine has been to the USA market and it is not a
current model for emission standards.
Now I believe that the 2.0 diesel engine is planned for the USA market in
2009.
So the problem with the X-Prize is that there is not an engine that a
fabrication shop can pull off a shelf to put in their own lightweight
vehicle. Any engine found has to be developed to current emission
standards... |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 11:41 pm |
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Guest
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Quote:
So I'll just lay my cards on the table...
The best that I would have been able to do with the mere $250,000 would be
to get a Caterham Super7 kit car in the extra wide version but special
order the frame in aluminum rather than steel. And I could't use a
motorcycle engine and transmission (which could save 300 pounds in weight)
so I would use the smallest 4-cylinder engine currently available and
certified for emissions standards in the U.S. market (like a 1.5 Yaris
engine). Then I would have to find a transmission for the engine since the
car frame that I am using is for rear-wheel-drive. Next I would take the
car to an Italian design studio and have them design a bodywork and shape
for the car. And the thin flexible fiberglass or Lexan bodywork would
attach to mounting points but also push down over plastic shapers. Of
course a master fiberglass shop would have to make and fit the bodywork.
That's Car A and would weigh about 1200 pounds. The Car A result would be
about 75 MPG in highway driving...
The car that I envision could look something like this:
http://www.antimarket.com/ktmxbow.html.0.html
But go ahead and cover the wheels with bodywork and make a swing back top.
Now reduce the 1540 pound weight by using a motorcycle engine and
transmission instead of a car engine and transmission. And to target the 100
MPG requirement use about a 50 horsepower engine and have a vehicle weight
of 1000 to 1100 pounds... |
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| madcadman |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:17 am |
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<<snip>>
was down at the NAS-CART Fasttrak. Hey, there were a lot of cub scouts
there that Saturday. If I could market that with its powerful 5 hp Briggs &
Stratton I could win the X-prize and one million dollars? Call Algore, I
think this will be the answer to the global warming hoax, uh, er, I mean
crisis. |
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| Androcles |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:48 am |
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--
This message is brought to you by Androcles
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"PolicySpy" <PIntell@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:3%BLj.19950$Q52.8540@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
| >
| > So I'll just lay my cards on the table...
| >
| > The best that I would have been able to do with the mere $250,000 would
be
| > to get a Caterham Super7 kit car in the extra wide version but special
| > order the frame in aluminum rather than steel. And I could't use a
| > motorcycle engine and transmission (which could save 300 pounds in
weight)
| > so I would use the smallest 4-cylinder engine currently available and
| > certified for emissions standards in the U.S. market (like a 1.5 Yaris
| > engine). Then I would have to find a transmission for the engine since
the
| > car frame that I am using is for rear-wheel-drive. Next I would take the
| > car to an Italian design studio and have them design a bodywork and
shape
| > for the car. And the thin flexible fiberglass or Lexan bodywork would
| > attach to mounting points but also push down over plastic shapers. Of
| > course a master fiberglass shop would have to make and fit the bodywork.
| > That's Car A and would weigh about 1200 pounds. The Car A result would
be
| > about 75 MPG in highway driving...
| >
|
| The car that I envision could look something like this:
|
| http://www.antimarket.com/ktmxbow.html.0.html
|
Oh, you mean plastic toy. |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:19 pm |
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Guest
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Quote: The car that I envision could look something like this:
http://www.antimarket.com/ktmxbow.html.0.html
Hey, I think I've driven one of those before. Its called a go-kart and it
was down at the NAS-CART Fasttrak. Hey, there were a lot of cub scouts
there that Saturday. If I could market that with its powerful 5 hp Briggs
& Stratton I could win the X-prize and one million dollars? Call Algore, I
think this will be the answer to the global warming hoax, uh, er, I mean
crisis.
No, the KTM X-BOW has a suspension and is not a go-cart. But at 1650 pounds
it does not have top, doors, or windows...while a Lotus Elise at 1980 pounds
does have a top, doors, and windows.
Now since the X-BOW uses a 2.0 VW engine it could probably swap for a 2009
2.0 VW diesel. But for a 100 MPG it needs to weigh 1100 pounds instead of
1650 pounds and it needs a 1.1 to 1.4 diesel. Also a swing back top needs to
be added because a car without a top would have dubious climate control...
But see the X-BOW is a much better 100 MPG design philosophy direction than
someone's high-in-the-air tandem-seat tricycle...and that's the point.
(Now the Lotus Elise might swap for the 1.5 Yaris engine...but still too
heavy for 100 MPG.)
Back to the X-BOW...it is actually a race car. And it looks a little like a
super-modified. (Of course current stock car fans think a SUV is a race car
and have never seen a super-modified.) |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:25 pm |
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Guest
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The X-BOW has a carbon fiber frame. Carbon fiber is about $50 a pound while
fiberglass is about 50 cents a pound.
But carbon fiber is not necessary. The car could have a Ducati-style
frame...
Of course the X-BOW is designed for 300 horsepower and for race tire
traction...
But put the 2009 VW diesel in the X-BOW, add a swing-back roof, and get
about 80 MPG... |
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| Androcles |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 1:17 pm |
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Guest
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--
This message is brought to you by Androcles
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"PolicySpy" <PIntell@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:ObNLj.22062$%15.6737@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
|
| > |
| > | The car that I envision could look something like this:
| > |
| > | http://www.antimarket.com/ktmxbow.html.0.html
| > |
| > Oh, you mean plastic toy.
| >
|
| The X-BOW has a carbon fiber frame. Carbon fiber is about $50 a pound
while
| fiberglass is about 50 cents a pound.
|
| But carbon fiber is not necessary. The car could have a Ducati-style
| frame...
|
| Of course the X-BOW is designed for 300 horsepower and for race tire
| traction...
|
| But put the 2009 VW diesel in the X-BOW, add a swing-back roof, and get
| about 80 MPG...
|
Oh, you mean a toy. |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:29 pm |
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Guest
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Quote: | > | The car that I envision could look something like this:
| > |
| > | http://www.antimarket.com/ktmxbow.html.0.html
| > |
| > Oh, you mean plastic toy.
|
|
| The X-BOW has a carbon fiber frame. Carbon fiber is about $50 a pound
while
| fiberglass is about 50 cents a pound.
|
| But carbon fiber is not necessary. The car could have a Ducati-style
| frame...
|
| Of course the X-BOW is designed for 300 horsepower and for race tire
| traction...
|
| But put the 2009 VW diesel in the X-BOW, add a swing-back roof, and get
| about 80 MPG...
|
Oh, you mean a toy.
A device designed and built to a logistical requirement is not a toy...and
that's fundamental.
But the X-Prize might be more practical if it required 70 MPG of a four seat
car and 90 MPG of a two-seat car. |
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| Androcles |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:06 pm |
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--
This message is brought to you by Androcles
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"PolicySpy" <PIntell@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:z0PLj.20268$Q52.19630@bignews9.bellsouth.net...
|> | > | The car that I envision could look something like this:
| > | > |
| > | > | http://www.antimarket.com/ktmxbow.html.0.html
| > | > |
| > | > Oh, you mean plastic toy.
| > | >
| > |
| > | The X-BOW has a carbon fiber frame. Carbon fiber is about $50 a pound
| > while
| > | fiberglass is about 50 cents a pound.
| > |
| > | But carbon fiber is not necessary. The car could have a Ducati-style
| > | frame...
| > |
| > | Of course the X-BOW is designed for 300 horsepower and for race tire
| > | traction...
| > |
| > | But put the 2009 VW diesel in the X-BOW, add a swing-back roof, and
get
| > | about 80 MPG...
| > |
|
| > Oh, you mean a toy.
| >
|
| A device designed and built to a logistical requirement is not a toy...and
| that's fundamental.
|
| But the X-Prize might be more practical if it required 70 MPG of a four
seat
| car and 90 MPG of a two-seat car.
|
As I recall, the first X-prize won was hardly practical.
An X PRIZE is a multi-million dollar award given to the first team to
achieve a specific goal, set by the X PRIZE Foundation, which has the
potential to benefit humanity. Rather than awarding money to honor past
achievements or directly funding research, an X PRIZE incites innovation by
tapping into our competitive and entrepreneurial spirits.
******** INNOVATION *********
There is no innovation in your toy, it just another car that you happen to
like the appearance of. You even assume it is powered by "gallons" of
ordinary diesel and want MPG. Heck, it doesn't even keep the rain out, to
say nothing of the hopeless aerodynamics. |
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| PolicySpy |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:42 pm |
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Guest
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"> |
Quote: | > Oh, you mean a toy.
|
|
| A device designed and built to a logistical requirement is not a
toy...and
| that's fundamental.
|
| But the X-Prize might be more practical if it required 70 MPG of a four
seat
| car and 90 MPG of a two-seat car.
|
As I recall, the first X-prize won was hardly practical.
An X PRIZE is a multi-million dollar award given to the first team to
achieve a specific goal, set by the X PRIZE Foundation, which has the
potential to benefit humanity. Rather than awarding money to honor past
achievements or directly funding research, an X PRIZE incites innovation
by
tapping into our competitive and entrepreneurial spirits.
******** INNOVATION *********
There is no innovation in your toy, it just another car that you happen to
like the appearance of. You even assume it is powered by "gallons" of
ordinary diesel and want MPG. Heck, it doesn't even keep the rain out, to
say nothing of the hopeless aerodynamics.
High MPG to benefit humanity is not a toy...so the X-Prize language that you
quote refutes your won point.
And a race car built to an established class is not a toy...as sport
throughout history has always first been adult endeavor.
But early reports are saying that the 2009 Honda Accord diesel will get 52
MPG. Well I doubt that it will be that good since a European diesel Civic is
not quite that good.
But the X-Prize at 100 MPG might be reasonable if they waited for the
availability of small diesels that meet U.S. emission standards and that
would then be available to fabrication shops. But the smallest U.S. diesel
in 2009 is likely to be 2.0 and that is too big for 100 MPG.
The remaining choice is to bring a 1.1 to 1.4 diesel up to current emission
standards or to bring a fuel-injected motorcycle engine up to emission
standards. But the average fabrication shop is not going to be able to
develop and engine to emission standards.
But put a 1.1 to 1.4 diesel into something like the X-BOW and you have an
X-Prize entry where all you have to fabricate is some extra bodywork. |
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| Androcles |
Posted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:09 pm |
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Guest
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--
This message is brought to you by Androcles
http://www.androcles01.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
"PolicySpy" <PIntell@notmail.com> wrote in message
news:g6QLj.35222$rC6.32771@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
|
| "> |
| > | > Oh, you mean a toy.
| > | >
| > |
| > | A device designed and built to a logistical requirement is not a
| > toy...and
| > | that's fundamental.
| > |
| > | But the X-Prize might be more practical if it required 70 MPG of a
four
| > seat
| > | car and 90 MPG of a two-seat car.
| > |
| >
| > As I recall, the first X-prize won was hardly practical.
| >
| > An X PRIZE is a multi-million dollar award given to the first team to
| > achieve a specific goal, set by the X PRIZE Foundation, which has the
| > potential to benefit humanity. Rather than awarding money to honor past
| > achievements or directly funding research, an X PRIZE incites innovation
| > by
| > tapping into our competitive and entrepreneurial spirits.
| >
| > ******** INNOVATION *********
| >
| > There is no innovation in your toy, it just another car that you happen
to
| > like the appearance of. You even assume it is powered by "gallons" of
| > ordinary diesel and want MPG. Heck, it doesn't even keep the rain out,
to
| > say nothing of the hopeless aerodynamics.
| >
|
| High MPG to benefit humanity is not a toy...so the X-Prize language that
you
| quote refutes your won point.
|
| And a race car built to an established class is not a toy...as sport
| throughout history has always first been adult endeavor.
|
| But early reports are saying that the 2009 Honda Accord diesel will get 52
| MPG. Well I doubt that it will be that good since a European diesel Civic
is
| not quite that good.
|
| But the X-Prize at 100 MPG might be reasonable if they waited for the
| availability of small diesels that meet U.S. emission standards and that
| would then be available to fabrication shops. But the smallest U.S. diesel
| in 2009 is likely to be 2.0 and that is too big for 100 MPG.
|
| The remaining choice is to bring a 1.1 to 1.4 diesel up to current
emission
| standards or to bring a fuel-injected motorcycle engine up to emission
| standards. But the average fabrication shop is not going to be able to
| develop and engine to emission standards.
|
| But put a 1.1 to 1.4 diesel into something like the X-BOW and you have an
| X-Prize entry where all you have to fabricate is some extra bodywork.
|
You are so fixated and fanatical about your toy you haven't even considered
electric cars. Diesel, diesel, diesel is all you talk about. You are
obviously a nutter.
*plonk* |
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