Main Page | Report this Page
 
   
Science Forum Index  »  Geology Forum  »  Logic - Plate Tectonic style
Page 4 of 4    Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4
Author Message
Florian
Posted: Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:53 pm
Guest
brad <lbjohnson1949@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:
WHY is the mantle homogeneous ?

Give me a break.. the mantle is far, very far from being homogeneous:

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5865/943?rss=1

--
Florian
"Toute vérité passe par trois phases. D'abord, elle est ridiculisée;
ensuite, elle rencontre une vive opposition avant d'être acceptée comme
une totale évidence" - Arthur Schopenhauer
brad
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:59 pm
Guest
On Mar 10, 2:18 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 10, 1:39 am, brad <lbjohnson1...@yahoo.com> wrote:

deleted


Quote:
It is refreshing seeing somebody so open about convection cells and
good for you,keep up the good work in cleaning up grammar and notation
you hear and don't mind me and my idea of this rotating Earth thing.It
is already taking on a life of its own so I expect you to defend a
stationary Earth with all the intelligence you display with me.

Do I get pompous with you ? Imagine a pot of boiling water . Can you
predict where each water molecule is or where it's going ? The hot
mantle is exactly the same. As any hot area rises a cooler area
adjacent must sink. This process may or may not respond to the
rotation of the earth.

Quote:
WHY is the mantle homogeneous ?

Take the widest view possible -

The Earth is rotating

The shape of the Earth is not a perfect sphere

The fractured crust sits atop a rotating molten/flexible  composition
and profile this imperfect sphere.

This is the crux of your difficulty. The crust does not sit on a
molten mantle . The pressure in the mantle is too high to allow molten
matter in any but local areas subject to shear stress ( subduction
zones. ) We do recognize that the earth is not a perfect sphere and
that axial rotation is the most probable
explanation.
Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------------------------------­------

Narrow the view slightly -

How does rotation condition a 40 km deviation from a perfect sphere

Where are there exmples of this elsewhere in rotating objects with an
exposed flexible state

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Shift gears and take a look at stellar dynamics -

For a given star of roughly the same size and composition,there is a
correlation between maximum equatorial speed,differential rotation
rates and deviation from a pshere.

This is another problem . Any star the same size as the earth would
have to be a neutron star. And any other star has far more H and He
than anything else and being gaseous will not be a good analogy to a
terrestrial
planet.
Quote:
Any change in composition,rotational speed will affect the
differential rotation rates and subsequently the shape of the star.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------------------------------­------------

Return to the rotation of the flexible/molten interior of the Earth -

What exempts the Earth from the same generalised rotational dynamics
which correlate maximum equatorial speed,interior composition and
spherical deviation.The missing component is differential rotation. I personally , dislike dissmissing , out of hand , differential rotation. However , I need more than shape of a terrestrial planet to accept it. Recent earthquake analysis has found what appears to be subducted plates that have apparently settled to or near the base of the mantle .For those plates to sink ,they must displace mantle material . What was the response of that displaced material ? Perhaps greater resolution will exhibit some bias in favor of DR.
What alternative rotational mechanism can be proposed to differential
rotation of the interior composition to generate the spherical
deviation

centrifugal force , for the crust. Is the core
aspherical ?
Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------­---------------------------------------------------------------------------­------

Considering that generalised dynamics do not prohibit differential
rotation in the Earth's interior,it stands to reason that it is a
satisfactory means to explain the 40 km deviation without knowing what
the internal composition and viscosity is. Agreed. unless the density is too great and G is overwhelmed. > In allowing lattitudinal
shear bands which occur where differential rotation occurs in stellar
dynamics,the differential rates automatically qualify as the mechanism
for crustal >motion. Do you then ignore convection ? ( not stationary !) Remember , the mass of the mantle is orders of magnitude greater than the crust. Stars are objects forever on the cusp between gravitational collapse and heat generated expansion. Cool a little and they collapse. Heat up too quickly and they blow up. > It may just be possible to see the slightly
different rotation rates from actual images of the rotating stellar
composition but that is the nub of the agument for a rotational
mechanism -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfKoPsA8KQ

 If convection didn't exist would you

not expect heavy elements to collect at the base of the mantle?

Differential rotation is not a conclusion,it is a point of departure
along with maximum equatorial speed, and spherical deviation for
determining what the composition and viscosity of the interior is.If
you begin with internal composition,viscosity organised around a
geostationary thermally driven convection cells you will get a
different set of criteria as opposed to a rotational mechanism and
that is the central argument.

Because the mantle is in continuous motion ( tranmitting internal heat
to the surface ) the mineralology is everywhere the same . Plate
Tectonics is just a minor consequence. And, why do you call it
geostationary ?-

There would always come a time when the internal mechanism would begin
to overshadow the outlines of plate tectonics and reduce it to a
'minor consequence' as you would put it in an effort to promote a
geostationary convection cell  notion.You csn hide a lot of junk
behind convection cells  mainly because they can only be speculated
while rotational dynamics and specifically differential rotation has a
sequential logic to it and can be derived from observing the behavior
of other rotating celestial objects.

Your convection cells notion are geostationary insofar as not only do
they require no reference to axial rotation and planetary shape,they
prohibit differential rotation as a mechanism which binds plametary
shape with crustal motion,For differential rotation to
exist,convection cells have to go and that is about as straight an
answer as I can give.

I think that convection cells is a poor analogy for a heat driven
circulating mantle. I prefer to think of the mantle as a pot of
boiling water with convection as the primary reponse to its internal
energy
( heat )removal.
Quote:
The geological material is a joy to work with and I never stop
reminding participants that it is not really that important to
establish an internal mechanism,only if it is done,to make sure that
it has the best possible chance of explaining multiple features and
effects rather than a means to an end,something which the ad hoc
ceonvection cell solution would have served.I cannot repeat it often
enough,I am absolutely astonished that the entire community is
prepared to let an observed orbital component to drift by maintaining
variable axial inclination,whatever chance the rotational dynamics
have of emerging,it cannot happen without first handling the observed
motions of the Earth.

It is always easy to point out wrong approaches just for the sake of
it however it is far more difficult to promote a more productive view
of things thereby setting aside older and less productive concepts.-


When you have the force exerted by a circulating , convecting mantle
( in its quest to release heat ) the thin crust has no choice , but
to respond. That response is PT.
brad
Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 6:06 pm
Guest
On Mar 10, 6:53 pm, auxotectonics_deletethis@nachon_andthis.net
(Florian) wrote:
Quote:
brad <lbjohnson1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
WHY is the mantle homogeneous ?

Give me a break.. the mantle is far, very far from being homogeneous:

http://www.sciencemag.org/ Chemically the mantle is exactly homogeneous. It isn't "pasteurized " , however. Thus , overall, it is the same ; while locally , it has impurities.
Timberwoof
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:01 am
Guest
In article
<516d3921-75f7-4349-a473-d7f2f63db232@p73g2000hsd.googlegroups.com>,
brad <lbjohnson1949@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:
On Mar 10, 6:53 pm, auxotectonics_deletethis@nachon_andthis.net
(Florian) wrote:
brad <lbjohnson1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
WHY is the mantle homogeneous ?

Give me a break.. the mantle is far, very far from being homogeneous:

http://www.sciencemag.org/





Chemically the
mantle is exactly homogeneous. It isn't "pasteurized " , however. Thus ,
overall, it is the same ; while locally , it has impurities.

You're thinking it isn't homogenized. It is, in a sense, pasteurized
because it has been heated up. But I take your meaning. :-)

--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
"When you post sewage, don't blame others for
emptying chamber pots in your direction." ‹Chris L.
oriel36
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:02 am
Guest
On 13 Mar, 03:59, brad <lbjohnson1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Quote:
On Mar 10, 2:18 pm, oriel36 <kelleher.ger...@gmail.com> wrote:
The shape of the Earth is not a perfect sphere

The fractured crust sits atop a rotating molten/flexible  composition
and profile this imperfect sphere.

This is the crux of your difficulty. The crust does not sit on a
molten mantle . The pressure in the mantle is too high to allow molten
matter in any but local areas subject to shear stress ( subduction
zones. )   We do recognize that the earth is not a perfect sphere and
that axial rotation is the most probable
explanation.


Did you just say ' probable' !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Have a very nice day.

So let me finish the main point without regard for who understands
this or not.


Observations of Equatorial speed,differential rotation and spherical
deviation are not enough to link the three components together
however variations in any of those three components affecting the
other two is certainly enough to forge the association between
rotation,spherical deviation and differential rotation.Since
variations are seen between the Sun,Vega and Lyra in regards to
spherical deviations and variations in speeds,it is enough to affirm
generalised dynamics for rotating celestial objects with a fluid
composition and subsequently viscosity,the Earth being no exception.

While I may find that overlooking the orbital orientation component to
be astonishing due to the fact that it can be seen occuring via the
images of Uranus,equally,it is incredible to see the complete
disassociation between differential rotation and the Earth's spherical
deviation.No point in showing vague arrows pointing out from the dead
center of the Earth when it is easier to look at rotational stellar
dynamics and apply the lessons learned in terms of spherical deviation
with the additional benefit that it accounts for crustal motion/
evoilution as well.

No offense to your pot of boiling water,porridge or any other
description I have heard over the years,the pot is flat and not
rotating so whatever analogy you wish to draw for our round and
rotating Earth then please spare me the details.You are polite and
thank you very much for representing the 'convection cell' notion as
the mainstream view.I may be dismayed but I can live with that.

Keep that pot boiling,do you hear, and good luck to you








and take a look at stellar dynamics -
Quote:

For a given star of roughly the same size and composition,there is a
correlation between maximum equatorial speed,differential rotation
rates and deviation from a pshere.

This is another problem . Any star the same size as the earth would
have to be a neutron star. And any other star has far more H and He
than anything else and being gaseous  will not be a good analogy to a
terrestrial
planet.

Any change in composition,rotational speed will affect the
differential rotation rates and subsequently the shape of the star.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­--------------------------------------------------------------------------­-­------------

Return to the rotation of the flexible/molten interior of the Earth -

What exempts the Earth from the same generalised rotational dynamics
which correlate maximum equatorial speed,interior composition and
spherical deviation.The missing component is differential rotation.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I personally , dislike dissmissing , out of hand , differential rotation. However , I need more than shape of a terrestrial planet to accept it. Recent earthquake analysis has found what appears to be subducted plates that have apparently settled to or near the base of the mantle .For those plates to sink ,they must displace mantle material . What was the response of that displaced material ? Perhaps greater resolution will exhibit some bias in favor of DR.
What alternative rotational mechanism can be proposed to differential
rotation of the interior composition to generate the spherical
deviation

centrifugal force , for the crust. Is the core
aspherical ?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­--------------------------------------------------------------------------­-­------

Considering that generalised dynamics do not prohibit differential
rotation in the Earth's interior,it stands to reason that it is a
satisfactory means to explain the 40 km deviation without knowing what
the internal composition and viscosity is.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 Agreed. unless the density is too great and G is overwhelmed.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 > In allowing lattitudinal
shear bands which occur where differential rotation occurs in stellar
dynamics,the differential rates automatically qualify as the mechanism
for crustal  >motion.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Do you then ignore convection ? ( not stationary !)  Remember , the mass of the mantle is orders of magnitude greater than the crust.  Stars are objects forever on the cusp between gravitational collapse and heat generated expansion. Cool a little and they collapse. Heat up too quickly and they blow up.                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > It may just be possible to see the slightly
different rotation rates from actual images of the rotating stellar
composition but that is the nub of the agument for a rotational
mechanism -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dfKoPsA8KQ

 If convection didn't exist would you

not expect heavy elements to collect at the base of the mantle?

Differential rotation is not a conclusion,it is a point of departure
along with maximum equatorial speed, and spherical deviation for
determining what the composition and viscosity of the interior is.If
you begin with internal composition,viscosity organised around a
geostationary thermally driven convection cells you will get a
different set of criteria as opposed to a rotational mechanism and
that is the central argument.
Because the mantle is in continuous motion ( tranmitting internal heat
to the surface ) the mineralology is everywhere the same . Plate
Tectonics is just a minor consequence. And, why do you call it
geostationary ?-

There would always come a time when the internal mechanism would begin
to overshadow the outlines of plate tectonics and reduce it to a
'minor consequence' as you would put it in an effort to promote a
geostationary convection cell  notion.You csn hide a lot of junk
behind convection cells  mainly because they can only be speculated
while rotational dynamics and specifically differential rotation has a
sequential logic to it and can be derived from observing the behavior
of other rotating celestial objects.
Your convection cells notion are geostationary insofar as not only do
they require no reference to axial rotation and planetary shape,they
prohibit differential rotation as a mechanism which binds plametary
shape with crustal motion,For differential rotation to
exist,convection cells have to go and that is about as straight an
answer as I can give.

I think that convection cells is a poor analogy for a heat driven
circulating mantle. I prefer to think of the mantle as a pot of
boiling water with convection as the primary reponse to its internal
energy
( heat )removal.

The geological material is a joy to work with and I never stop
reminding participants that it is not really that important to
establish an internal mechanism,only if it is done,to make sure that
it has the best possible chance of explaining multiple features and
effects rather than a means to an end,something which the ad hoc
ceonvection cell solution would have served.I cannot repeat it often
enough,I am absolutely astonished that the entire community is
prepared to let an observed orbital component to drift by maintaining
variable axial inclination,whatever chance the rotational dynamics
have of emerging,it cannot happen without first handling the observed
motions of the Earth.

It is always easy to point out wrong approaches just for the sake of
it however it is far more difficult to promote a more productive view
of things thereby setting aside older and less productive concepts.-

When you have the force exerted by a circulating , convecting mantle
( in its quest to release heat )  the thin  crust has no choice , but
to respond. That response is PT.
Florian
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:00 am
Guest
brad <lbjohnson1949@yahoo.com> wrote:

Quote:
Chemically the mantle is exactly homogeneous. It isn't "pasteurized "
,however. Thus , overall, it is the same ; while locally , it has
impurities.

Jeez, the paper I cited tell you precisely that the mantle is not
chemically homogenous.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5865/943?rss=1

Besides, tomographies supports an heterogenous mantle, with zone of
different density/chemical composition.

--
Florian
"Toute vérité passe par trois phases. D'abord, elle est ridiculisée;
ensuite, elle rencontre une vive opposition avant d'être acceptée comme
une totale évidence" - Arthur Schopenhauer
Timberwoof
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 1:25 am
Guest
In article
<1idqp4j.115omldgcozhmN%auxotectonics_deletethis@nachon_andthis.net>,
auxotectonics_deletethis@nachon_andthis.net (Florian) wrote:

Quote:
brad <lbjohnson1949@yahoo.com> wrote:

Chemically the mantle is exactly homogeneous. It isn't "pasteurized "
,however. Thus , overall, it is the same ; while locally , it has
impurities.

Jeez, the paper I cited tell you precisely that the mantle is not
chemically homogenous.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5865/943?rss=1

Besides, tomographies supports an heterogenous mantle, with zone of
different density/chemical composition.

How interesting. You quote an article that assumes plate tectonics.

"but this view conflicts with evidence of recycled material in the
source of ocean island basalts"

--
Timberwoof <me at timberwoof dot com> http://www.timberwoof.com
"When you post sewage, don't blame others for
emptying chamber pots in your direction." ‹Chris L.
Florian
Posted: Sun Mar 16, 2008 8:39 am
Guest
Timberwoof <timberwoof.spam@inferNOnoSPAMsoft.com> wrote:

Quote:
In article
1idqp4j.115omldgcozhmN%auxotectonics_deletethis@nachon_andthis.net>,
auxotectonics_deletethis@nachon_andthis.net (Florian) wrote:

brad <lbjohnson1949@yahoo.com> wrote:

Chemically the mantle is exactly homogeneous. It isn't "pasteurized "
,however. Thus , overall, it is the same ; while locally , it has
impurities.

Jeez, the paper I cited tell you precisely that the mantle is not
chemically homogenous.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/319/5865/943?rss=1

Besides, tomographies supports an heterogenous mantle, with zone of
different density/chemical composition.

How interesting. You quote an article that assumes plate tectonics.

Of course it does! Do you know what is a paradigm? How would you
interprete chemical heterogeneities in the framework of Plate Tectonics
differently than recycling?

In Science, we work in the framework of a theory and try to find the
most plausible explanation in that framework. But if the framework is
wrong, then the interpretation is good for the trash.

Quote:
"but this view conflicts with evidence of recycled material in the
source of ocean island basalts"

Do you know what are those evidences? Did you read Albarede's paper? Of
course not!

--
Florian
"Toute vérité passe par trois phases. D'abord, elle est ridiculisée;
ensuite, elle rencontre une vive opposition avant d'être acceptée comme
une totale évidence" - Arthur Schopenhauer
 
Page 4 of 4    Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4   All times are GMT - 5 Hours
The time now is Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:44 pm