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Science Forum Index » Nanotechnology Forum » Conversion of solar energy in a mechanical form?
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| dau.mic |
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:28 pm |
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I propose you the following conjecture: is it possible to convert directly
solar energy in a mechanical form?
Imagine a thin sheet metal made in a strong material like steel, with a
thickness approaching 50 m. This sheet metal is drilled by a very great
number of conical holes, the small opening of holes on a face of sheet, the
large opening on the other face. The opening angle of these conical holes is
very small, approximately 0.1 degree. The diameter of the small opening of
holes must be very small, lower or equal to the mean free path of the gas in
contact. For example, the mean free path of the molecules of atmosphere at
sea level is 70 nanometers. If the gas in contact is the atmosphere at sea
level, the diameter of the small opening must be lower than 70 nm, the
diameter of the other opening can be bigger, approaching some hundreds
nanometers.
The kinetic theory of gases makes the assumption that the collisions of gas
particles with the solid walls in contact are perfectly elastic. The
smallness of the diameter of conical hole in the part close to the small
opening makes that the molecules of gas contained in the hole have more
frequently shocks on the wall of hole that among them. The slope of the wall
of hole modifies gradually the trajectories of gas molecules. Each elastic
shock of gas molecule on solid wall modifies the angle between the speed
vector of molecule and the axis of hole. For a molecule entering in hole by
the large opening, the angle between the speed vector and the axis of hole
increases with a value equal to the opening angle of hole after each shock
on solid wall. For a molecule entering in hole by the small opening, the
angle between the speed vector and the axis of hole decreases with a value
equal to the opening angle of hole after each shock on solid wall. The
molecules of gas which enter by the large opening have their trajectories
gradually inverted by shocks on wall. These molecules don't reach the small
opening of hole. On the contrary, the molecules of gas which enter by the
small opening have their trajectories gradually made parallel to the axis of
hole by shocks on the oblique wall. These molecules can't return towards the
small opening.
The conical hole discriminates the molecules of gas according as they enter
by its small or large opening. The molecules of gas entering in hole by the
large opening have their trajectories inverted by the shocks on the wall of
hole. They quit the hole by the large opening, so their contribution to the
pressure applied on the face of the sheet metal is the same as if the holes
are absent. On contrary, the molecules of gas which enter in hole by the
small opening don't participate on the pressure applied on the face of the
sheet metal but, by shocks on the wall of hole, generate a pressure on the
opposite face of the sheet metal. If the surface occupied by the small
openings represents 1 % of the total surface of the face of sheet metal, it
could appear between the two faces of the sheet metal a difference of
pressure of 2 %.
Simultaneously at this difference of pressure, a stream of gas through the
small openings towards the large openings appears. This orderly movement
shows a decrease of disorder of molecules of gas, translated by the decrease
of the indicator of this disorder: the temperature. So a difference of
pressure could be maintained by the heat of gas in contact. A force,
proportional at the area of the sheet metal drilled by conical holes, could
be recovered.
If this phenomenon occurs really, it could transform into mechanical form
the solar energy stored in the heat of atmosphere. This use of solar energy
could have the advantage to be free from the variability of daylight.
One can envisage two modes of manufacture: etching or bombing. Since some
years, the single-crystal silicon used in the electronic industry knows new
applications for the manufacture of micromechanical devices. The etching is
the main tool of this new industry, and more particularly the anisotropic
etching. This sort of etching affects the single-crystal silicon in variable
speed according as the crystallographic orientation of the silicon surface.
It is possible with this technique to make a great variety of holes,
particularly conical holes.
The other mode of manufacture could be bombing. One knows how to make metal
or ceramic aggregates with a diameter of some nanometers until some hundreds
nanometers. Ionized and propelled in high speed by an electrostatic
accelerator, these nanometric missiles could generate holes in a sheet
metal. If the energy of these solid particles is suitably adjusted, one
could, I believe, obtain conical holes. The smallest opening of the hole
would be localized in the impact point of the particle and would have its
diameter. This mode of ballistic manufacture doesn't necessitate
single-crystal silicon as support. Current materials as the steel could be
used.
I think that this phenomenon is not incompatible with the second law of
thermodynamic. These sheet metal drilled by conical holes could be seen as a
dissipative system, permitting the local apparition of negative entropy.
Dau.mic |
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| Jim Logajan |
Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2008 3:32 pm |
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"dau.mic" <dau.mic@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Quote: I propose you the following conjecture: is it possible to convert
directly solar energy in a mechanical form?
Yes. This was theoretically shown by James Maxwell in 1871 and
experimentally proven by Pyotr Lebedev in 1899. Wikipedia entry:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation_pressure
But the device you propose appears to be unrelated to that concept and,
in fact, doesn't appear to have anything to do with solar energy per se
but appears to be a variation on "Maxwell's Daemon":
[ Description of conical holes elided for brevity. ]
Quote: The conical hole discriminates the molecules of gas according as they
enter by its small or large opening.
That's your claim, but your argument is faulty because it makes the
following invalid claim:
Quote: The molecules of gas entering in hole by the
large opening have their trajectories inverted by the shocks on the
wall of hole. They quit the hole by the large opening, so their
contribution to the pressure applied on the face of the sheet metal is
the same as if the holes are absent.
If the area of the small opening is A1 and the larger area is A2, then
there is an area A1 through which the molecules entering the large
opening can pass through to the other side. You are incorrect when you
say the trajectories of all the molecules entering the large hole are
inverted. So long as any can fit through area A1 then some random number
will make it to that hole. The geometry of the holes does not prevent
that from happening. I can invent an infinite number of initial particle
positions and velocities where I can get particles from the side with
the larger end of the conical holes out through the smaller end. If you
don't believe me I'll be glad to show you examples.
Quote: I think that this phenomenon is not incompatible with the second law
of thermodynamic. These sheet metal drilled by conical holes could be
seen as a dissipative system, permitting the local apparition of
negative entropy.
The proposal is a macro-sized system and the second law applies and your
mechanism will not work. |
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| dau.mic |
Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 1:16 am |
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Guest
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Quote: I propose you the following conjecture: is it possible to convert
directly solar energy in a mechanical form?
Yes. This was theoretically shown by James Maxwell in 1871 and
experimentally proven by Pyotr Lebedev in 1899.
But the device you propose appears to be unrelated to that concept and,
in fact, doesn't appear to have anything to do with solar energy per se
but appears to be a variation on "Maxwell's Daemon".
My device is related with solar energy by the fact that this energy is
responsible of the temperature of atmosphere.
___________________________________
Quote: The conical hole discriminates the molecules of gas according as they
enter by its small or large opening.
That's your claim, but your argument is faulty because it makes the
following invalid claim:
Quote: The molecules of gas entering in hole by the
large opening have their trajectories inverted by the shocks on the
wall of hole. They quit the hole by the large opening, so their
contribution to the pressure applied on the face of the sheet metal is
the same as if the holes are absent.
If the area of the small opening is A1 and the larger area is A2, then
there is an area A1 through which the molecules entering the large
opening can pass through to the other side. You are incorrect when you
say the trajectories of all the molecules entering the large hole are
inverted. So long as any can fit through area A1 then some random number
will make it to that hole. The geometry of the holes does not prevent
that from happening. I can invent an infinite number of initial particle
positions and velocities where I can get particles from the side with
the larger end of the conical holes out through the smaller end. If you
don't believe me I'll be glad to show you examples.
I think my claim is not invalid. The geometry of the hole is important. The
conical hole could filter the gas molecules if the diameter of the hole near
the small opening is sufficiently small in regard of the mean free path of
the gas.
I have made a simulation with Visual Basic language. This simulation
describes the comportment of a gas not in a conical hole but in a similar
form, a pyramidal hole. Although this software doesn't consider the shocks
between gas molecules, I think it can be realistic for the simulation of a
gas in the part of hole near the small opening when the section of hole is
smaller than the mean free path of the gas.
For example, I have tested the following geometry:
- side of the square large opening: 500 nm,
- side of the square small opening: 50 nm,
- length of the pyramidal hole: 50000 nm,
- amount of launched molecules: 100000.
In this case, the area of the small opening represents 1% of the area of the
large opening so the flow of molecules entering by the small opening
represents 1% of the flow of molecules entering by the large opening. My
simulation said that only 0.3% of the molecules entering by the large
opening reach the small opening. It is an insufficient flow to compensate
the flow of gas molecules entering by the small opening. If the simulation
is sufficiently realistic, it can appear a difference of pressure between
the two faces of the sheet metal.
___________________________________
Quote: I think that this phenomenon is not incompatible with the second law
of thermodynamic. These sheet metal drilled by conical holes could be
seen as a dissipative system, permitting the local apparition of
negative entropy.
The proposal is a macro-sized system and the second law applies and your
mechanism will not work.
The phenomenon of molecules filtering occurs in the part of hole near the
small opening. It is a very small volume and affects a small amount of
matter. The phenomenon in each individual hole is not a macro-sized system. |
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| Jim Logajan |
Posted: Thu Jan 31, 2008 2:51 am |
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Guest
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"dau.mic" <dau.mic@wanadoo.fr> wrote:
Quote: My device is related with solar energy by the fact that this energy is
responsible of the temperature of atmosphere.
Your device doesn't seem to be limited to the origin of the energy that
sets the gas temperature, or what temperature the gas is at, or any other
state variable.
That's why solar energy appears redundant and therefore not an essential
relation.
Quote: The geometry of the hole is
important. The conical hole could filter the gas molecules if the
diameter of the hole near the small opening is sufficiently small in
regard of the mean free path of the gas.
Because your mechanism isn't expending any energy, yet would allow two
halves of an otherwise closed container of gas to move to unequal
densities, your device appears to increase the energy available to do
useful work. That appears to be a fundamental violation of the laws of
thermodynamics as I understand them.
Quote: I have made a simulation with Visual Basic language. This simulation
describes the comportment of a gas not in a conical hole but in a
similar form, a pyramidal hole. Although this software doesn't
consider the shocks between gas molecules, I think it can be realistic
for the simulation of a gas in the part of hole near the small opening
when the section of hole is smaller than the mean free path of the
gas.
For example, I have tested the following geometry:
- side of the square large opening: 500 nm,
- side of the square small opening: 50 nm,
- length of the pyramidal hole: 50000 nm,
- amount of launched molecules: 100000.
In this case, the area of the small opening represents 1% of the area
of the large opening so the flow of molecules entering by the small
opening represents 1% of the flow of molecules entering by the large
opening. My simulation said that only 0.3% of the molecules entering
by the large opening reach the small opening. It is an insufficient
flow to compensate the flow of gas molecules entering by the small
opening. If the simulation is sufficiently realistic, it can appear a
difference of pressure between the two faces of the sheet metal.
There are a host of possible reasons your simulation is yielding
incorrect results. Perhaps the volume, density, or energy distributions
of the ensemble of particles used for the two sides differ in ways you
haven't noticed. (I presume your runs were of equal length time.) Or
perhaps your test for wall collisions and subsequent bounce trajectories
is incorrect. (Also, I suspect a 2 dimensional model would suffice rather
than a 3 dimensional one.)
If the simulation is not too long and you are willing to allow it to be
publicly reviewed, I'd be happy to review it with you on this forum. If
not, I can understand. |
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| dau.mic |
Posted: Fri Feb 08, 2008 12:32 am |
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Guest
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Metzger writes:
Quote: Your device purports, and correct me if I'm wrong, to effectively sort
molecules into molecules of high kinetic energy and low kinetic
energy, does it not?
So, lets say this was possible. You could then place your device in
the middle of a chamber filled with a gas, and end up with a higher
temperature at one side of the chamber than the other, could you not?
You could then run a heat engine off of the resulting temperature
difference. This would seem to violate the second law of
thermodynamics, so it should raise certain suspicions.
My device doesn't sort the gas molecules by their kinetic energy. The gas
molecules are sorted according to the orientation of their speed vectors.
The responsible of this discrimination is the geometry of the conical hole.
Logajan writes:
Quote: Because your mechanism isn't expending any energy, yet would allow two
halves of an otherwise closed container of gas to move to unequal
densities, your device appears to increase the energy available to do
useful work. That appears to be a fundamental violation of the laws of
thermodynamics as I understand them.
The conical holes in the sheet metal break the symmetry between the face
where are located the small openings of the holes and the face where are
located the large openings of the holes. This dissymmetry breaks also the
thermodynamic equilibrium. This device made of a sheet metal drilled by
conical nano-holes is a dissipative system. A dissipative system is a
thermodynamically open system which is operating far from thermodynamic
equilibrium in an environment with which it exchanges energy, matter and/or
entropy. The selective movement of gas molecules through the conical holes
from the small openings to the large openings is the manifestation of an
exchange of energy and entropy between the device and the gas in contact.
Metzger writes:
Quote: My suspicion is that if you properly account for all the real
interaction that take place, your device will not work as expected.
However, if it does work as expected, you should be prepared to
explain why it does not violate the second law of thermodynamics...
Logajan writes:
Quote: There are a host of possible reasons your simulation is yielding
incorrect results. Perhaps the volume, density, or energy distributions
of the ensemble of particles used for the two sides differ in ways you
haven't noticed. (I presume your runs were of equal length time.) Or
perhaps your test for wall collisions and subsequent bounce trajectories
is incorrect. (Also, I suspect a 2 dimensional model would suffice rather
than a 3 dimensional one.)
If the simulation is not too long and you are willing to allow it to be
publicly reviewed, I'd be happy to review it with you on this forum. If
not, I can understand.
For another purpose, I have made a software with Visual Basic. This software
named Pyramide.exe simulates the comportment of gas molecules in a
pyramidal hole with an alone opening on its square base. This simulation is
very simple: the trajectory of each gas molecule in the three dimensional
structure is determined one after one. The simulation is realistic only in
the case when the dimensions of the hole are smaller than the mean free path
of gas molecules. With this condition, a gas molecule which enters in the
cavity could have a shock or more on the four solid planes without contact
another gas molecule. The shocks of gas molecules on solid planes are
supposed elastic. After each contact of molecule on solid, the software
calculates the new trajectory of molecule and the exchanged impulses until
the gas molecule leaves the hole by the square opening.
The errors of the software are avoided by two processes. The geometrical
process verifies the absence of abnormal trajectories (for example, a
trajectory passing through a solid plane of the cavity). The physical
process surveys the stability of the speed modulus of gas molecule between
entry and exit of the hole (the shocks are elastic so the speed modulus of
molecules must be constant).
I have modified this software for the test of a pyramidal hole with two
openings. The software now named 'Pyra_2.exe' is adjusted for the test of
the following geometry:
- depth of the hole: 55550 nm
- length of the side of the square large entry: 500 nm,
- length of the side of the square small opening: 50 nm,
- distance between large and small openings: 50000 nm.
In this case, the gas molecules enter in the hole by the large square
opening. The software calculates the position of each shock on solid plane
and the new orientation of the speed vector. The only difference with the
original software is when the gas molecules reach the level of small
opening. I have added an instruction which breaks the algorithm when a
molecule reaches the small opening: a new molecule is injected in the large
opening and the variable s which normally counts the errors counts now the
molecules reaching the small opening.
I allow the review of the software on this forum.
The software Pyra_2.exe is available here:
http://simulation.servehttp.com
in the folder Pyramidal hole.
The folder contains also others files:
- Pyramide.hlp is a detailed presentation of the original software
Pyramide.exe (in French),
- Vbrun300.dll and Cmdialog.vbx are necessary files for the working of
the software Pyra_2.exe,
- Screen_1 to Screen_4 are image files which show the successive windows
of the software when it is running.
If you want test the software, follow the steps:
- launch the software Pyra_2.exe,
- on the first window, click on the button Suite,
- on the second window, input the data e = 500, p = 55550, n = 100000 then
click on the button 'Suite',
- on the third window, click on the button Lancement.
After that, the simulation is running. The important result of the
simulation is the counter s which shows the amount of molecules reaching
the small opening.
[Your humble moderator is coming late to this party, but I agree with Perry and
James. First, this will not work because it is a Maxwell's Daemon device,
which would violate the second law of thermodynamics if it worked as described.
It does not matter that some geometric "symmetry" is "broken"
[Second, your software is yielding erroneous results because you are not
building a full or complete model. In order to build a model of the
two-chamber closed system that James and Perry are discussing, you most
certainly must model, not just particles and their interactions with your
boundry, but the interactions of the particles themselves. Without that, your
model has no proper measure of temperature, density, or pressure, and is
completely invalid. I understand why you don't want to do this-- it is
computationally intentional. Nevertheless, it is necessary.
[There are other subtler errors of modelling once that's taken care of, but
that one is a bright red flag of model invalidity. -- JSN] |
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