Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what the HELL do
you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

That is correct. If the antenna had no pitch it would be termed the
DDRR antenna.
With a pitch J.D. Kraus terms it the "normal mode helix" which is
quite different from the usual helix that radiates out the end.

Benj

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:03u0l4-r5t.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what the HELL do
you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.


Then it is a helical antenna; 'normal mode' (helix diameter is small compared to
wavelength) helical antenna acts like a monopole antenna with circular polarization, when
the circumference is close to 1 wavelength it radiates in the 'axial mode' with close to
circular polarization near the axis.

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182661489.785821.81800@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

That is correct. If the antenna had no pitch it would be termed the
DDRR antenna.
With a pitch J.D. Kraus terms it the "normal mode helix" which is
quite different from the usual helix that radiates out the end.

Benj


With no pitch it is a loop antenna

Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:03u0l4-r5t.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what the HELL
do
you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.


Then it is a helical antenna; 'normal mode' (helix diameter is small compared to
wavelength) helical antenna acts like a monopole antenna with circular polarization,
when
the circumference is close to 1 wavelength it radiates in the 'axial mode' with close
to
circular polarization near the axis.

Semantics.

Not everyone calls a linear loaded element a "normal mode helix".

Everyone does call an axial mode helix a "helix".


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182661489.785821.81800@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

That is correct. If the antenna had no pitch it would be termed the
DDRR antenna.
With a pitch J.D. Kraus terms it the "normal mode helix" which is
quite different from the usual helix that radiates out the end.

Benj


With no pitch it is a loop antenna

Maybe.

If it has a short by comparison linear element tangent to the loop,
it is a DDRR.

In a DDRR, the radiation comes from the short linear element and the
loop is just loading.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:d5j2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:03u0l4-r5t.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what the HELL
do
you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.


Then it is a helical antenna; 'normal mode' (helix diameter is small compared to
wavelength) helical antenna acts like a monopole antenna with circular polarization,
when
the circumference is close to 1 wavelength it radiates in the 'axial mode' with close
to
circular polarization near the axis.

Semantics.

Not everyone calls a linear loaded element a "normal mode helix".

To say "it's a helically wound, continuously loaded, short antenna" is to say that it is a
helical antenna which is operating as a monopole, depending on dimensions its polarization
can be true circular, elliptical or linear from the context it is clear that it is either
circular or very close to it.

Am I going to have to post the equations to show what I mean.

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:lbj2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182661489.785821.81800@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

That is correct. If the antenna had no pitch it would be termed the
DDRR antenna.
With a pitch J.D. Kraus terms it the "normal mode helix" which is
quite different from the usual helix that radiates out the end.

Benj


With no pitch it is a loop antenna

Maybe.

A helix with no (0) pitch is a loop. The helix starts at the feed point abd returns to it.
There would be no other element.

If it has a short by comparison linear element tangent to the loop,
it is a DDRR.

In a DDRR, the radiation comes from the short linear element and the
loop is just loading.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:d5j2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:03u0l4-r5t.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what the
HELL
do
you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.


Then it is a helical antenna; 'normal mode' (helix diameter is small compared to
wavelength) helical antenna acts like a monopole antenna with circular
polarization,
when
the circumference is close to 1 wavelength it radiates in the 'axial mode' with
close
to
circular polarization near the axis.

Semantics.

Not everyone calls a linear loaded element a "normal mode helix".

To say "it's a helically wound, continuously loaded, short antenna" is to say that it
is a
helical antenna which is operating as a monopole, depending on dimensions its
polarization
can be true circular, elliptical or linear from the context it is clear that it is
either
circular or very close to it.

Am I going to have to post the equations to show what I mean.

Did you miss the 7 MHz part?

It would have to be close to 100 feet in diameter to get non-linear
polarization and you aren't mounting that on a "nice long PVC pole"
as he stated.

It's operating as a monopole.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:lbj2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182661489.785821.81800@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

That is correct. If the antenna had no pitch it would be termed the
DDRR antenna.
With a pitch J.D. Kraus terms it the "normal mode helix" which is
quite different from the usual helix that radiates out the end.

Benj


With no pitch it is a loop antenna

Maybe.

A helix with no (0) pitch is a loop. The helix starts at the feed point abd returns to
it.
There would be no other element.

What part of the word "if" are you having a problem understanding?
So you want to talk about something other than what we are talking about?

If it has a short by comparison linear element tangent to the loop,
it is a DDRR.

In a DDRR, the radiation comes from the short linear element and the
loop is just loading.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.



--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

Umm, do you think there is perhaps some magic frequency where all of
a sudden photons don't act like photons?

Umm, that is EXACTLY the question!

The deal goes like this. Tesla believed that radio waves were
longitudinal. T.J.J. See calculated that even light had a longitudinal
component (although very small). As I see it the true test of
longitudinal or transverse is the polarization effect. So yeah, the
question is can someone DEMONSTRATE low frequency polarization, not
just wave hands and say well high frequencies work so well it "proves"
low frequencies are the same. So far I haven't seen any examples that
convince me. Like I said, maybe a roll of wire on the space shuttle
could do it, but I haven't seen that yet either.

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:kop2l4-lla.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:lbj2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182661489.785821.81800@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

That is correct. If the antenna had no pitch it would be termed the
DDRR antenna.
With a pitch J.D. Kraus terms it the "normal mode helix" which is
quite different from the usual helix that radiates out the end.

Benj


With no pitch it is a loop antenna

Maybe.

A helix with no (0) pitch is a loop. The helix starts at the feed point abd returns to
it.
There would be no other element.

What part of the word "if" are you having a problem understanding?
So you want to talk about something other than what we are talking about?

If it has a short by comparison linear element tangent to the loop,
it is a DDRR.

In a DDRR, the radiation comes from the short linear element and the
loop is just loading.

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:nbp2l4-0c8.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:d5j2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:03u0l4-r5t.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what the
HELL
do
you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.


Then it is a helical antenna; 'normal mode' (helix diameter is small compared to
wavelength) helical antenna acts like a monopole antenna with circular
polarization,
when
the circumference is close to 1 wavelength it radiates in the 'axial mode' with
close
to
circular polarization near the axis.

Semantics.

Not everyone calls a linear loaded element a "normal mode helix".

To say "it's a helically wound, continuously loaded, short antenna" is to say that it
is a
helical antenna which is operating as a monopole, depending on dimensions its
polarization
can be true circular, elliptical or linear from the context it is clear that it is
either
circular or very close to it.

Am I going to have to post the equations to show what I mean.

Did you miss the 7 MHz part?

It would have to be close to 100 feet in diameter to get non-linear
polarization and you aren't mounting that on a "nice long PVC pole"
as he stated.

Care to post your calculations?

Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:nbp2l4-0c8.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:d5j2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:03u0l4-r5t.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182563824.001900.260800@q75g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...

Mark wrote:
Polarization of low frequency radio waves, in spite of
everyone pretending it happens, has always seemed to me to be
experimentally suspect.

Huh?
Ask any ham radio operator.

Um. Ok. I'll ask myself (WD8ASL). Lessee. I've got this 7 mHz
relatively small antenna. It's a normal mode helix mounted on a nice
long PVC pole. And the question in my mind was how should I mount it?
Does polarization really occur and create THAT much of an effect at
these wavelengths? A normal mode helix has a kind of donut pattern so
if you mount it flat (helix axis vertical) it is more or less an omni
pattern with a null directly overhead. And it matches the presumed
polarization you expect to receive. Mounted vertically however, you
can now rotate the antenna to use the side null to reduce
interference, but according to polarization expected it shouldn't pick
up squat. The actual measured results are it makes virtually NO
difference (except for the noise-nulling thing) which way you mount
it.

Well, the helical antenna does have, under the right dimensions, true
circular
polarization and if not it does approximate circular polarization so what
the
HELL
do
you
expect?

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.


Then it is a helical antenna; 'normal mode' (helix diameter is small compared
to
wavelength) helical antenna acts like a monopole antenna with circular
polarization,
when
the circumference is close to 1 wavelength it radiates in the 'axial mode'
with
close
to
circular polarization near the axis.

Semantics.

Not everyone calls a linear loaded element a "normal mode helix".

To say "it's a helically wound, continuously loaded, short antenna" is to say that
it
is a
helical antenna which is operating as a monopole, depending on dimensions its
polarization
can be true circular, elliptical or linear from the context it is clear that it is
either
circular or very close to it.

Am I going to have to post the equations to show what I mean.

Did you miss the 7 MHz part?

It would have to be close to 100 feet in diameter to get non-linear
polarization and you aren't mounting that on a "nice long PVC pole"
as he stated.

Care to post your calculations?

Sure.

The diameter of an axial mode helical antenna is typically on the
order of around a wavelength in diameter.

One wavelength at 7 MHz is about 140 feet.

(300/7)*3.28 = 140 feet

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

In article <tKzfi.17049$RX.4099@newssvr11.news.prodigy.net> you wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message news:kop2l4-lla.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

jimp@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
news:lbj2l4-4vk.ln1@mail.specsol.com...
Bill Habr <billhabr@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

"Benj" <bjacoby@iwaynet.net> wrote in message
news:1182661489.785821.81800@q69g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...

j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:

What he's describing isn't a helical antenna, it's a helically wound,
continuously loaded, short antenna.

That is correct. If the antenna had no pitch it would be termed the
DDRR antenna.
With a pitch J.D. Kraus terms it the "normal mode helix" which is
quite different from the usual helix that radiates out the end.

Benj


With no pitch it is a loop antenna

Maybe.

A helix with no (0) pitch is a loop. The helix starts at the feed point abd
returns to
it.
There would be no other element.

What part of the word "if" are you having a problem understanding?
So you want to talk about something other than what we are talking about?

Re-read (or maybe read for the first time) the next to last sentence in
the post that you originally replied to.

Why, what do my eyes see at the end of that sentence!

The phrase "DDRR antenna".

If it has a short by comparison linear element tangent to the loop,
it is a DDRR.

In a DDRR, the radiation comes from the short linear element and the
loop is just loading.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.