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Science Forum Index » Immunology Forum » Catharina Svanborg
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| Bryan Heit |
 Posted: Mon Jun 04, 2007 5:54 pm |
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Suzanne S wrote:
Quote: "Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f41c93$ccv$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
Elfanie wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:32:28 -0600, Bryan Heit
bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote:
snip
Obviously I cannot speak for every hospital on the planet, but the
standard here is that formula is only used if a mother doesn't produce
milk, produces insufficient milk, or cannot breastfeed for some other
reason.
I'm not exactly sure what you'd have them do in these circumstances - let
the baby starve?
Bryan
The truth is that there are very few women who are truly unable to produce
enough milk (around 1%).
However, that is not the sole reason why a woman cannot breastfeed.
There are a multitude of medical issues which can reduce or eliminate
milk delivery, even if milk production is up to par. See the articles I
posted in response to John for a clinical study that covers some of that.
In addition, there is a large (and unfortunately growing) number of
women with diseases which can be (or may be, there is sme contrversy for
some diseases) transfered via milk. TB, HIV, HTLV, and bacterial
abscesses being a few examples. Likewise, many medications can render
breast milk unsafe. And while normal practice is to discontinue
medication during pregnancy & breastfeeding, that isn't possible in all
cases.
And lastly, while not a major issue in developed nations, in developing
nations it is not uncommon for women to produce low-quality milk. After
all, if a woman is not receiving sufficient nutrition herself, there is
no way she can pass on proper nutrition to her child.
In each and every of the above cases supplementation (or total
replacement) of breast milk with formula represents not only a viable
option, but in many cases the only option, to safely feed the baby.
<snip>
Quote: But formula is not equal to
breastmilk.
I, nor any of the doctors I've ever worked with or known, have ever
claimed otherwise. But the paranoia John is spreading about it is
simply wrong. It isn't the best option - but it isn't toxic, it isn't
going to kill your baby, and its a damn site better then allowing your
child to be improperly nourished.
Bryan |
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| Amethyst Deceiver |
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:10 am |
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Bryan Heit wrote:
Quote: Elfanie wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:32:28 -0600, Bryan Heit
bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote:
Bottle feeding (by which I expect you mean formula) hasn't been
promoted in decades.
*blinkblink*
as someone who has been in the birthing field for 12 years...I can
tell you with absolute certainty that it has absolutely been
promoted...everyday...for decades.
If you look at the WHO/Unicef code for marketing artificial baby milk
(a code which, BTW, we were the LAST country to sign) you will see
that we absolutely unequivically do not follow the code.
Everytime a hospital tells a mother whose baby is 26 hours old that
the baby "needs" formula because *fill in any reason*, that's
promoting formula feeding.
Obviously I cannot speak for every hospital on the planet, but the
standard here is that formula is only used if a mother doesn't produce
milk, produces insufficient milk, or cannot breastfeed for some other
reason.
Oh, bless, how sweet.
I know women who've been advised to use formula from the day they delivered
their baby because their milk hadn't come in. Well, no. It wouldn't, would
it. I know women who've been advised to use formula because their baby had
jaundice. I know women who've been advised to use formula because they had
flu and using formula meant the baby wouldn't get flu too. I know women
who've been advised to use formula, at night at least, so they could get
some sleep. I know women who've been advised to use formula, by the medical
profession, in a variety of countries, for a variety of very silly reasons. |
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| Suzanne S |
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 6:36 am |
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"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f4256h$nv6$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
Quote: Suzanne S wrote:
"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f41c93$ccv$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
Elfanie wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:32:28 -0600, Bryan Heit
bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote:
snip
And lastly, while not a major issue in developed nations, in developing
nations it is not uncommon for women to produce low-quality milk. After
all, if a woman is not receiving sufficient nutrition herself, there is no
way she can pass on proper nutrition to her child.
In each and every of the above cases supplementation (or total
replacement) of breast milk with formula represents not only a viable
option, but in many cases the only option, to safely feed the baby.
I wasn't going to reply, not wanting to get into a flame etc, but I can't
let this bit slide.
A women has to be *severly* undernurished, not just poorly nurished, before
her milk is adversly affected. The body will take the nutrients it needs
from the mother for the baby's milk, leaving the mother without. There have
been studies done on this.
In a country where a mother is poorly nurished, it is also not a good idea
to switch to formula. Often, formula is expensive, and so it gets watered
down to make it last longer. The water is not safe, and so passes illness
on to baby. The equipment is not steralised properly and so passes
illnesses onto baby. Further, the formula is not always quality controlled
as it is in developed countries, and so substandard formula makes it onto
the market. I remember a year or so ago where the formula on sale on one
country (China?) didn't provide enough calories for the baby, and babies
died because of it (found the story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/china/story/0,7369,1196996,00.html )
Developing countries even more so than developed countries need to encourage
breastfeeding.
Unicef article on BF in developing country:
http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/burkinafaso_35227.html
Suzanne |
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| JOHN |
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 10:42 am |
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"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f4256h$nv6$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
Quote:
And lastly, while not a major issue in developed nations, in developing
nations it is not uncommon for women to produce low-quality milk. After
all, if a woman is not receiving sufficient nutrition herself, there is no
way she can pass on proper nutrition to her child.
In each and every of the above cases supplementation (or total
replacement) of breast milk with formula represents not only a viable
option, but in many cases the only option, to safely feed the baby.
that kills an estimated 1.5 million babies every year
http://www.whale.to/w/baby_milk2.html
You can see formula promotion in action with Heit. |
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| Bryan Heit |
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 3:51 pm |
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JOHN wrote:
Quote: "Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f4256h$nv6$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
And lastly, while not a major issue in developed nations, in developing
nations it is not uncommon for women to produce low-quality milk. After
all, if a woman is not receiving sufficient nutrition herself, there is no
way she can pass on proper nutrition to her child.
In each and every of the above cases supplementation (or total
replacement) of breast milk with formula represents not only a viable
option, but in many cases the only option, to safely feed the baby.
that kills an estimated 1.5 million babies every year
http://www.whale.to/w/baby_milk2.html
Gee, look. johns written another page, and then linked to it to
"support" his arguments. Anyone else find it amazing these pages just
magically appear on his webpage a day or two after he needs them?
Also note the complete lack of citations & controls...
Quote: You can see formula promotion in action with Heit.
I'm promoting it how - by saying it can be used to suppliment when
sufficient normal milk isn't available. Interesting "promotion"...
Bryan |
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| JOHN |
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 4:44 pm |
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"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f44ibt$sau$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
Quote: that kills an estimated 1.5 million babies every year
http://www.whale.to/w/baby_milk2.html
Gee, look. johns written another page, and then linked to it to "support"
his arguments. Anyone else find it amazing these pages just magically
appear on his webpage a day or two after he needs them?
I did that in 10/06 actually, or updated it rather. Now that is magic.
Quote:
Also note the complete lack of citations & controls...
The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that 1.5 million infants die
around the world every year because they are not breastfed. Where water is
unsafe a bottle-fed child is up to 25 times more likely to die as a result
of diarrhoea than a breastfed child. http://www.babymilkaction.org/
Quote: You can see formula promotion in action with Heit.
I'm promoting it how - by saying it can be used to suppliment when
sufficient normal milk isn't available. Interesting "promotion"...
By going out of your way to defend the indefensible.
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| Bryan Heit |
| Posted: Tue Jun 05, 2007 5:11 pm |
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JOHN wrote:
Quote: The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that 1.5 million
infants die
around the world every year because they are not breastfed.
***Where water is unsafe***
Gee john, forgot to mention that little ditty, didn't you. The key is
where the *water* is unsafe. Guess what that means - its isn't the
formula - it's the chemicals, paracytes and pathogens in the water.
Imagine that, adding contaminated water to a food source has bad
outcomes - who would have guessed!
And guess what happens to those poor little breast-fed babies when the
begin drinking that contaminated water strait? You need look no farther
then the litany of the diseases common in the developing world to find
your answer to that question...
Quote: By going out of your way to defend the indefensible.
So based on your comments I suppose that those mothers who cannot
produce sufficient milk, for whatever reason, should just let their kids
starve then?
How about the ones in developed nations where the water is safe? Or
should those ones starve too?
Bryan |
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| JOHN |
| Posted: Wed Jun 06, 2007 3:40 am |
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"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f44n2b$uk3$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
Quote: JOHN wrote:
The World Health Organisation (WHO) estimates that 1.5 million infants
die
around the world every year because they are not breastfed. ***Where
water is unsafe***
Gee john, forgot to mention that little ditty, didn't you. The key is
where the *water* is unsafe. Guess what that means - its isn't the
formula - it's the chemicals, paracytes and pathogens in the water.
Thanks Brian, I couldn't demonstrate the mind set of allopathy better than
just letting you rant
http://www.whale.to/w/baby_milk2.html
"Truth has to be repeated constantly, because Error also is being preached
all the time, and not just by a few, but by the multitude. In the Press and
Encyclopaedias, in Schools and Universities, everywhere Error holds sway,
feeling happy and comfortable in the knowledge of having Majority on its
side."----Goethe |
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| TASHA PEPI |
| Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:31 pm |
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When I was at the hospital the nurse told me that baby was starving and i
needed to give him formular b/c he wanted to comfort suck all night. It had
nothing to do with my supply. She tried with all her might to get me to FF
"Bryan Heit" <bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote in message
news:f41c93$ccv$1@news.ucalgary.ca...
Quote: Elfanie wrote:
On Wed, 30 May 2007 15:32:28 -0600, Bryan Heit
bjheit@NOSPAMucalgary.ca> wrote:
Bottle feeding (by which I expect you mean formula) hasn't been promoted
in decades.
*blinkblink*
as someone who has been in the birthing field for 12 years...I can
tell you with absolute certainty that it has absolutely been
promoted...everyday...for decades.
If you look at the WHO/Unicef code for marketing artificial baby milk
(a code which, BTW, we were the LAST country to sign) you will see
that we absolutely unequivically do not follow the code.
Everytime a hospital tells a mother whose baby is 26 hours old that
the baby "needs" formula because *fill in any reason*, that's
promoting formula feeding.
Obviously I cannot speak for every hospital on the planet, but the
standard here is that formula is only used if a mother doesn't produce
milk, produces insufficient milk, or cannot breastfeed for some other
reason.
I'm not exactly sure what you'd have them do in these circumstances - let
the baby starve?
everytime a pediatrician tells a breastfeeding mom to give the baby
formula because the baby isn't gaining enough, that's promoting
formula feeding.
And I ask again, if the mother cannot produce enough milk or breastfeed
for whatever reason, exactly what should be done?
Everytime you turn on the television and see a carnation good start
commercial with "comfort proteins" - that's promoting formula feeding.
We don't get those; must be specific to your country. I cannot think of
one TV commercial for formula that's been aired here in decades...
Everytime you see an item with a 'baby theme' (baby shower invitation,
L&D scrubs, etc) that have bottles as a symbol of a baby, that's
promoting formula feeding.
Oh give me a break. Now you're becoming paranoid. Are you aware that
breast pumps exist? That mom can now send dad out a 2AM to feed the child
breast milk? And guess how that all works - I'll give you a hint: dad is
not lactating. I'm starting to think you're maybe not as familiar with
the whole baby thing as you claim.
Everytime a mother is sent home from the hospital with a "diaper bag"
from Enfamil written all over it and with free formula samples, that's
promoting formula feeding.
Once again, thats your country, not mine. Don't whine to me if you're
country still lives in the 1950's, or if your doctors are unduly
influenced by industry.
Bryan |
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