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Science Forum Index » Energy - Hydrogen Forum » Dead Man Makes Fire from Water
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| Guest |
 Posted: Tue May 29, 2007 11:18 pm |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:08 am |
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On May 30, 12:18 am, knews4u2c...@yahoo.com wrote:
I have recently proposed that anyone who posts off-topic, for the sole
purpose of creating offensive or undesirable subject lines - produce a
uniform response from us who want to carry on useful conversations
here at sci.energy.hydrogen - namely;
(1) Post an on topic subject line
(2) Put something on topic in response to the off-topic posting
Ignoring the off-topic posting altogether.
FOr example;
I was called a liar recently because I made a statement I thought was
uncontroversial. Namely, that hydrogen does not spontaneously
explode! haha..
Hydrogen is a fuel. And as a fuel it can explode certainly. But it
doesn't do so spontaneously. It does so only when three conditions
are met;
(1) There has to be an oxidizer present
(2) Oxidizer and fuel have to be in the right ratio - the explosion
limit
(3) There has to be a spark to set it off.
If all three conditions are not met - then an explosion CANNOT take
place.
Now, there are things that explode spontaneously. Things like
hydrogen peroxide. Pour a 3% solution of it on a wound and it will
bubble madly. A 97% solution will explode! Nitroglycerin is another
substance that can explode spontaneously. Hydrogen does not explode
spontaneously.
If hydrogen is kept away from oxygen and air, it cannot burn.
If hydrogen leaks out of a container air is present, but that
container can be equipped with a sealant and a MEMS based sensor that
releases the sealant if an unscheduled pressure drop occurs - and then
that tank's filling apparatus is disabled and the tank calls for
service.
If an uncontrolled leak occurs then air is present and explosive
limits can be reached. But, since hydrogen disappates so quickly
compared to methane or gasoline vapors, there is little time for a
spark to set it off.
And if there is a spark and the mixture is set off, the blast is far
less dangerous than methane or gasoline vapor due to the speed at
which hydrogen disappates again.
Now, how safe is gasoline? Well according to the fire safety folks
there are over 10,000 incidents a month where automobiles catch on
fire due to faulty fuel lines and fuel systems. Most of the time
people aren't in those cars, but still, 5,000 people a year lose their
lives to gasoline fires. Another 1,000 fires per month occur at gas
stations. These are uniformly under-reported. I'm certain that the
first hydrogen explosion won't be similarly reported.
Are liquids inherently safe and gases inherently unsafe? No its just
the opposite. Gases fill the containers they occupy, and there is no
change for oxidizer to get into them. So, the first condition for a
fire is never met. Not so for liquid filled containers that are
partly filled with fuel and partly filled with air - containing
oxidizers.
Is filling gaseous tanks dangerous? You tell me. Ever have a propane
bottle refilled? How hard is that? A very simple system of valves
keeps everything safe. Something that can easily be put in your car's
hydrogen gas tank.
No, safety is not the bugaboo some in the oil industry would have us
believe. In fact, while major oil companies have written papers on
the dangers of gasoline through their alternative energy arms, these
same companies have gone out of their way to supress reporting and
safety concerns of the more than 130,000 injuries per year caused by
gasoline explosions that produce over half a billion dollars in
property damage each year. |
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| Eeyore |
| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 12:21 am |
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Guest
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knews4u2chew@yahoo.com wrote:
Quote: Care to join the bettting pool on how long this guy lives?
Why would anyone care, it's energy negative.
Graham |
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| the_blogologist |
| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 1:00 am |
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Guest
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Coming up with free energy is almost as bad as curing cancer. This guy
will be arrested for child molestation within a week.
<knews4u2chew@yahoo.com> wrote:
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| Sgt.Sausage |
| Posted: Wed May 30, 2007 6:45 pm |
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Guest
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<Willie.Mookie@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1180501706.010792.305760@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
Quote: (1) There has to be an oxidizer present
(2) Oxidizer and fuel have to be in the right ratio - the explosion
limit
(3) There has to be a spark to set it off.
If all three conditions are not met - then an explosion CANNOT take
place.
There is at least one condition I can think of where
there are huge quantities of hydrogen exploding right
now -- with none of your above requirements.
It's "exploding" as we speak, but held in check by
its own gravitational field.
It, quite likely, happened spontaniously.
We call it "the Sun".
<grin> |
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| Guest |
| Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 4:07 pm |
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On May 29, 9:18 pm, knews4u2c...@yahoo.com wrote:
From:
http://rense.com/general76/mand.htm
Man Discovers Solution
To Energy Crisis?
By Joe Kovacs
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
6-9-7
Is the solution to America's energy needs as simple as a trip to the
beach?
The idea is a fascinating one as a Florida man searching for a cancer
cure may have stumbled onto a virtually limitless source of energy:
salt water.
John Kanzius, 63, is a broadcast engineer who formerly owned several
TV and radio stations, before retiring in Sanibel Island, Fla.
Five years ago, he was diagnosed with a severe form of leukemia, and
began a quest to find a kinder, gentler way to treat the disease
compared to harsh chemotherapy.
In October 2003, he had an epiphany: kill cancer with radio waves. He
then devised a machine that emits radio waves in an attempt to slay
cancerous cells, while leaving healthy cells unharmed.
His experiments in fighting cancer have become so successful, one
physician was quoted as saying, "We could be getting close to grabbing
the Holy Grail."
But in the midst of his experiments as he was trying to take salt out
of water, Kanzius discovered his machine could do what some may have
thought was impossible: making water burn.
"On our way to try to do desalinization, we came up with something
that burns, and it looks in this case that salt water perhaps could be
used as a fuel to replace the carbon footsteps that we've been using
all these years, i.e., fossil fuels," Kanzius said.
The possible ramifications of the discovery are almost mind-boggling,
as http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55934#
cars could be fueled by salt water instead of gasoline, hydroelectric
plants could be built along the shore, and homes could be heated
without worrying about supplies of oil.
"It doesn't have to be ocean salt water," Kanzius said. "It burns just
as well when we add salt to tap water."
Kanzius has partnered with Charles Rutkowski, general manager of
Industrial Sales and Manufacturing, a Millcreek, Pa., company that
builds the radio-wave generators.
"I've done this [burning experiment] countless times and it still
amazes me," Rutkowski told the Erie Times-News. "Here we are paying $3
a gallon for gas, and this is a device that seems to turn salt water
into an alternative fuel."
Kanzius has been told it's actually hydrogen that's burning, as his
machine generates enough heat to break down the chemical bond between
hydrogen and oxygen that makes up water.
"I have never heard of such a thing," Alice Deckert, Ph.D., chairwoman
of Allegheny College's chemistry department, told the Times-News.
"There doesn't seem to be enough energy in radio waves to break the
chemical http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55934#
bonds and cause that kind of reaction."
Thus far, Kanzius' discovery has not received extensive national
publicity, but has been featured on several local television news
programs, including http://www.wnd.com/redir/r.asp?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kKtKSEQBeI
WPBF-TV in West Palm Beach, Fla., http://www.wnd.com/redir/r.asp?http://www..youtube.com/watch?v=BtmK3hwYO6U
WSEE-TV in Erie, Pa., and http://www.wnd.com/redir/r.asp?http://www.youtube..com/watch?v=Lud1qceKqyQ
WKYC-TV in Cleveland.
"We discovered that if you use a piece of paper towel as a wick, it
lights every single time and you can start it and stop it at will by
turning the radio waves on and off," Kanzius told the Times-News as he
watched a test tube of salt water burn.
"And look, the paper itself doesn't burn," he added. "Well, it burns
but the paper is not consumed."
Kanzius said he hasn't decided whether to share his fuel discovery
with government or private business, though he'd prefer a federal
grant to develop it.
"I'm afraid that if I join up with some big energy company, they will
say it doesn't work and shelve it, even if it does work," Kanzius told
the paper.
And Videos:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Saltwater+into+fire |
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| Eeyore |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 12:28 am |
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| John Husvar |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 7:47 am |
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Guest
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In article <466B8C2C.BCA7BC7@hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Unless he discovered some way to repeal the laws off thermodynamics, it
always takes more energy to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen
than you can get back by reconverting them to water. Shades of Brown's
Gas!
Why is it so hard for people to understand: Entropy only goes downhill?
You can't win: You can't break even: You can't leave the game. |
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| Fred Kasner |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 1:38 pm |
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Guest
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John Husvar wrote:
Quote: In article <466B8C2C.BCA7BC7@hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
knews4u2chew@yahoo.com wrote:
On May 29, 9:18 pm, knews4u2c...@yahoo.com wrote:
Care to join the bettting pool on how long this guy lives?
http://donklephant.com/2007/05/28/turning-salt-water-into-fuel/
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=68227
From:
http://rense.com/general76/mand.htm
Man Discovers Solution
To Energy Crisis?
By Joe Kovacs
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
6-9-7
Is the solution to America's energy needs as simple as a trip to the
beach?
The idea is a fascinating one as a Florida man searching for a cancer
cure may have stumbled onto a virtually limitless source of energy:
salt water.
Are you really this stupid ?
Graham
Unless he discovered some way to repeal the laws off thermodynamics, it
always takes more energy to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen
than you can get back by reconverting them to water. Shades of Brown's
Gas!
Why is it so hard for people to understand: Entropy only goes downhill?
You can't win: You can't break even: You can't leave the game.
Not quite true, my boy. The creation of living matter from non-living
chemicals is an example of a decrease in entropy. Spontaneous processes
may always increase entropy as disorder appears to be the rule of the
universe. But many systems (including living ones) appear to locally
decrease entropy as they become with expenditure of energy more complex
and more organized. "Der energie der Welt ist eine Konstant. Der
Entropie der Welt strebt ein Maximum zu."
FK |
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| Stuart Grey |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 2:39 pm |
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Guest
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On Sun, 10 Jun 2007 18:38:39 +0000, Fred Kasner wrote:
Quote: John Husvar wrote:
In article <466B8C2C.BCA7BC7@hotmail.com>,
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
knews4u2chew@yahoo.com wrote:
On May 29, 9:18 pm, knews4u2c...@yahoo.com wrote:
Care to join the bettting pool on how long this guy lives?
http://donklephant.com/2007/05/28/turning-salt-water-into-fuel/
http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=68227
From:
http://rense.com/general76/mand.htm
Man Discovers Solution
To Energy Crisis?
By Joe Kovacs
© 2007 WorldNetDaily.com
6-9-7
Is the solution to America's energy needs as simple as a trip to the
beach?
The idea is a fascinating one as a Florida man searching for a cancer
cure may have stumbled onto a virtually limitless source of energy:
salt water.
Are you really this stupid ?
Graham
Unless he discovered some way to repeal the laws off thermodynamics, it
always takes more energy to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen
than you can get back by reconverting them to water. Shades of Brown's
Gas!
Why is it so hard for people to understand: Entropy only goes downhill?
You can't win: You can't break even: You can't leave the game.
Not quite true, my boy. The creation of living matter from non-living
chemicals is an example of a decrease in entropy.
No it isn't. That creationist right wing pseudo science, which ignores
that living things get energy from the sun.
Creationist intentionally misdefine the system, to omit the sun. Oddly,
the anthropogenic left wing pseudo scientist make the same intentional
mistake, when they misdefine the carbon dioxide system.
< snip stuff based on an error > |
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| Terryc |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 10:26 pm |
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Guest
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John Husvar wrote:
Quote: Unless he discovered some way to repeal the laws off thermodynamics, it
always takes more energy to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen
than you can get back by reconverting them to water. Shades of Brown's
Gas!
If it works, isn't it just a form of "cavitation" which I believe is a
more efficent way of breaking down water.
Can not be bothered reading the usual "come-in-sucker-with-your-money"
crap that these usually are.
Probably just another "zero point" energy scan. Time to buy shares in
stainless steel. |
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| Eeyore |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:22 pm |
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Guest
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Fred Kasner wrote:
Quote: John Husvar wrote:
Why is it so hard for people to understand: Entropy only goes downhill?
You can't win: You can't break even: You can't leave the game.
Not quite true, my boy. The creation of living matter from non-living
chemicals is an example of a decrease in entropy.
It requires light energy.
Graham |
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| Eeyore |
| Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:24 pm |
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Guest
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Terryc wrote:
Quote: John Husvar wrote:
Unless he discovered some way to repeal the laws off thermodynamics, it
always takes more energy to electrolyze water into hydrogen and oxygen
than you can get back by reconverting them to water. Shades of Brown's
Gas!
If it works, isn't it just a form of "cavitation" which I believe is a
more efficent way of breaking down water.
Cavitation has nothing to do with 'breaking down water'.
Graham |
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| John Husvar |
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 7:10 am |
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Guest
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In article <PyXai.13521$5j1.7003@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net>,
Fred Kasner <fkasner@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
Quote: Not quite true, my boy. The creation of living matter from non-living
chemicals is an example of a decrease in entropy. Spontaneous processes
may always increase entropy as disorder appears to be the rule of the
universe. But many systems (including living ones) appear to locally
decrease entropy as they become with expenditure of energy more complex
and more organized. "Der energie der Welt ist eine Konstant. Der
Entropie der Welt strebt ein Maximum zu."
FK
I see your point, but even those localized instances are subject to
entropy and they are not closed systems. They require energy input and
expenditure to continue growth and function. If there's sufficient
energy input, many reactions, for example, life, can appear to decrease
or even reverse entropy for a time, but lose energy none the less in
each reaction that sustains that life. Eventually entropy wins out and
the living matter ceases living.
Entropy tends toward the maximum -- it's not just a good idea, it's the
law!  |
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| Terryc |
| Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 5:31 pm |
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Guest
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Eeyore wrote:
Quote:
Cavitation has nothing to do with 'breaking down water'.
Well, what was the term for the breaking down of water that didn't
involve electoylsis. I thought it was actually micro-cavitation. |
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