Why Humans are Conscious

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Bob Kolker

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:55 am

Guest

claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Quote:

Uh, okay. How about language?

You've fallen for some bogus science. Next time you take a trip to a
zoo take note of the fact that chimps are confined. There's a reason
for this.

There is a very good reason. If the chimps were allowed to go free they
would go out on the street and throw their shit at people (I kid you
not, this is a very nast chimp habit). Also adult male chimps are quite
strong and could do some real serious physical damage to humans.

Bob Kolker

Guest

Posted: Mon Feb 05, 2007 6:55 am

On Feb 3, 12:00 am, Bob Kolker <nowh...@nowhere.com> wrote:

Quote:

claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

As I stated, the subject of this thread is the selective origins of
human consciousness. A discussion about whether or not human
consciousness is distinctive from other species would be, IMO, an
inane discussion. It's obvious to all *reasonable* people that human
consciousness it is distinct and greater than that of any other
species. But if this is the subject you wish to discuss then maybe
it'd be better to start a new thread.

In a certain sense, that is an untestable assumption.

Sometimes you have to give up on the hand wringing and just go with
what is most reasonable.

Now tell us your rationale for assuming that human consciousness could
only be equivalent to any other species. Tell us this assumption is
more reasonable than my assumption that human consciousness is orders
of magnitude greater than that of any other species.

We cannot get into

Quote:

"the minds" of other animals (nor even other human beings).

Brains are directly measurable.

We can

Quote:

suppose we have the superior cognitive processes because of the the
external manifiestation of your thinking as compared to, say, the Chimps.

We make better tools than Chimps, we we suppose our thinking is more
skillful than theirs.

Bob Kolker

Guy A Hoelzer

Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 8:51 am

Guest

in article eq5f3k$o28$1@darwin.ediacara.org, claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net at
claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:

Quote:

On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.

You have access to a consciousnessometer?

Are you sure it's calibrated right?

Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.

Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?

[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]

How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment and set of experiences
as a chimp, do you think we could observe their ability to do calculus or
Sudoku? I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

Besides, any time some individuals claim something is "obvious" and a second
set of individuals claims it isn't; it isn't. :-)

Guy

dkomo

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:54 am

Guest

Tim Tyler wrote:

Quote:

dkomo wrote:

Tim Tyler wrote:

claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.

You have access to a consciousnessometer?

Are you sure it's calibrated right?

Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.

Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?

Humans are brainier than chimps - their brains different in weight
by a factor of about 2.5.

While that seems quite reasonable as an explanation of the human
ability to solve Sudoku puzzles, I don't think it justifies
assertions that human consciousness is orders of magnitude
higher in humans than in any other species.

Chimps knuckle walk through jungles while people send space probes
through the solar system. You don't think that's *at least* a factor of
100 difference in net performance? I do.

In the pell mell rush here toward reductionism, relativism and
anti-anthrocentrism, I think we forget that human consciousness is an
emergent group phenomenon. It's a "group mind". Chimp's minds are much
less so because they lack symbolic language.

So we're not individually smart enough to send probes to planets, but we
are smart enough when we cooperate in large teams of hundreds of people.
Plus, we can draw on the intellectual activity of millions of people who
have contributed during the whole history of science, mathematics and
technology. This too is part of our "group mind". This is where the
orders of magnitude differences come from.

Even the lowly first year calculus student who works on calculus
problems, groaning the whole time, is using the discoveries of the
brainiest humans of the past 300 years.

Quote:

IMO, we have pretty good explanations for why human brain size
increased: sexual selection acting on complex mating behaviour
provided selection pressure, and perhaps novel food sources (such
as provided by hunting and sea food) helped lift nutritional
constraints on brain size.

Is a separate explanation needed for human consciousness
elevation?

In a word, language.

Quote:

It seems like a model of yourself is an important
part of the psychological makeup of many social organisms -
since it also allows you to better model the behaviour of
others - so the same sort of selection could have been
involved.

/If/ 'consciousness' is ten times 'higher' in humans than in chimps,
then that might be a reason to think something else is going on.

However, that observation appears to be unsupported by any
evidence. It looks to me as though it is the same kind of
thinking that rates chimps as having relatively low
intelligence - since they perform poorly on human IQ tests.

I guess that until some sort of consciousnessometer is specified
practically any position is defensible.

--dkomo@cris.com

Perplexed in Peoria

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:25 pm

Guest

"dkomo" <dkomo871@comcast.net> wrote in message news:eqd78k$107k$1@darwin.ediacara.org...

Quote:

Tim Tyler wrote:

dkomo wrote:

Tim Tyler wrote:

claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.

You have access to a consciousnessometer?

Are you sure it's calibrated right?

Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.

Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?

Humans are brainier than chimps - their brains different in weight
by a factor of about 2.5.

While that seems quite reasonable as an explanation of the human
ability to solve Sudoku puzzles, I don't think it justifies
assertions that human consciousness is orders of magnitude
higher in humans than in any other species.

Chimps knuckle walk through jungles while people send space probes
through the solar system. You don't think that's *at least* a factor of
100 difference in net performance? I do.

In the pell mell rush here toward reductionism, relativism and
anti-anthrocentrism, I think we forget that human consciousness is an
emergent group phenomenon. It's a "group mind". Chimp's minds are much
less so because they lack symbolic language.

So we're not individually smart enough to send probes to planets, but we
are smart enough when we cooperate in large teams of hundreds of people.
Plus, we can draw on the intellectual activity of millions of people who
have contributed during the whole history of science, mathematics and
technology. This too is part of our "group mind". This is where the
orders of magnitude differences come from.

Even the lowly first year calculus student who works on calculus
problems, groaning the whole time, is using the discoveries of the
brainiest humans of the past 300 years.

IMO, we have pretty good explanations for why human brain size
increased: sexual selection acting on complex mating behaviour
provided selection pressure, and perhaps novel food sources (such
as provided by hunting and sea food) helped lift nutritional
constraints on brain size.

Is a separate explanation needed for human consciousness
elevation?

In a word, language.

I agree with this analysis as far as it goes. But it must be appreciated
that language has contributed to the 'orders of magnitude' in two ways.
One, as you point out, is that it allows us to see farther because we
can stand on the shoulders of giants. But another is that once we climb
up on those shoulders, we are subjected to different kinds of selective
pressures than the chimps still roaming around on the ground. We have
been subjected to several million years of selection for using language
more effectively - both natural selection and sexual selection. Therefore,
I think that the human brain may well be orders of magnitude more effective
as a language engine than a chimp brain, even if it is only a bit more
effective than the chimp brain as a foraging and predator avoidance engine.

pete

Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 8:25 pm

Guest

on Wed, 7 Feb 2007 13:54:12 -0500 (EST), dkomo <dkomo871@comcast.net> sez:

Quote:

What does "net performance" have to do with consciousness? You
are talking about actions and the products of actions, not
being. Consciousness is about being. I think the problem here,
as usual in discussions of this topic, is a failure of
vocabulary; the popular understanding of "consciousness"
conflates a whole slew of distinct concepts, ranging across
thought, understanding, self-reference, alertness, richness of
world-model, and reactivity to stimulus. It is best to hammer
down what the term is taken to mean before undertaking any
discussion, as each of the respondents is bound to select a
different definition from the list, and then all commence to
talk at crosspurposes. "Consciousness" should be considered as
only a very small and specific notion having nothing to do with
most of that: the direct experience of being.

Quote:

In the pell mell rush here toward reductionism, relativism and
anti-anthrocentrism, I think we forget that human consciousness is an
emergent group phenomenon. It's a "group mind". Chimp's minds are much
less so because they lack symbolic language.

So we're not individually smart enough to send probes to planets, but we
are smart enough when we cooperate in large teams of hundreds of people.
Plus, we can draw on the intellectual activity of millions of people who
have contributed during the whole history of science, mathematics and
technology. This too is part of our "group mind". This is where the
orders of magnitude differences come from.

Even the lowly first year calculus student who works on calculus
problems, groaning the whole time, is using the discoveries of the
brainiest humans of the past 300 years.

IMO, we have pretty good explanations for why human brain size
increased: sexual selection acting on complex mating behaviour
provided selection pressure, and perhaps novel food sources (such
as provided by hunting and sea food) helped lift nutritional
constraints on brain size.

Is a separate explanation needed for human consciousness
elevation?

In a word, language.

It seems like a model of yourself is an important
part of the psychological makeup of many social organisms -
since it also allows you to better model the behaviour of
others - so the same sort of selection could have been
involved.

/If/ 'consciousness' is ten times 'higher' in humans than in chimps,
then that might be a reason to think something else is going on.

However, that observation appears to be unsupported by any
evidence. It looks to me as though it is the same kind of
thinking that rates chimps as having relatively low
intelligence - since they perform poorly on human IQ tests.

I guess that until some sort of consciousnessometer is specified
practically any position is defensible.

Quote:

--dkomo@cris.com

--
==========================================================================
vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

Guest

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2007 7:41 pm

On Feb 6, 10:51 am, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote:

Quote:

in article eq5f3k$o2...@darwin.ediacara.org, claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net at
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:

On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.

You have access to a consciousnessometer?

Are you sure it's calibrated right?

Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.

Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?

[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]

How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment and set of experiences
as a chimp, do you think we could observe their ability to do calculus or
Sudoku?

Irrelevant.

Quote:

I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

The question that matters is what would happen if a chimps was raised
in a human family.

Quote:

Besides, any time some individuals claim something is "obvious" and a second
set of individuals claims it isn't; it isn't. Smile

It's obvious.

Tim Tyler

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2007 9:40 am

Guest

claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Quote:

On Feb 6, 10:51 am, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:
On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of
magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.
You have access to a consciousnessometer?
Are you sure it's calibrated right?
Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.
Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?
[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]
How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment
and set of experiences as a chimp, do you think we
could observe their ability to do calculus or Sudoku?

Irrelevant.

I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

The question that matters is what would happen if a chimps
was raised in a human family.

Most likely the chimp would get screwed up - much like
any individual ripped from its natural parents and
adopted by members of a different species would be.

Note that ability at calculus and Sudoku doesn't seem to
have much to do with what it says on:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=consciousness
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.

Guy A Hoelzer

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 6:43 am

Guest

in article eqoun0$2rgl$1@darwin.ediacara.org, claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net at
claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/11/07 9:41 PM:

Quote:

On Feb 6, 10:51 am, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote:
in article eq5f3k$o2...@darwin.ediacara.org, claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net at
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:

On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.

You have access to a consciousnessometer?

Are you sure it's calibrated right?

Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.

Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?

[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]

How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment and set of experiences
as a chimp, do you think we could observe their ability to do calculus or
Sudoku?

Irrelevant.

I disagree. If you admit that these abilities come from enculturation
rather than being inherent qualities, then I think it adds ambiguity to your
argument that undermines "obvious."

Quote:

I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

The question that matters is what would happen if a chimps was raised
in a human family.

This is a loaded question. Human families are designed to raise human
children, not chimp children. Why do you think this would be a fair
comparison of the potential abilities of each? A better question might be,
given a customized and optimal environment for the raising of humans and
chimps, how far could each potentially go in their cognitive development?
Of course, we don't know what the optimal environments might be, especially
for chimps, so we can't really do this experiment. As our esteemed
moderator noted, "how would we know?" This leaves with even more ambiguity
and a less obvious answer.

Quote:

Besides, any time some individuals claim something is "obvious" and a second
set of individuals claims it isn't; it isn't. :-)

It's obvious.

I think such an certain and closed minded response makes my point.

Guy

dkomo

Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 8:49 am

Guest

Tim Tyler wrote:

Quote:

claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:51 am, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:
On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of
magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.
You have access to a consciousnessometer?
Are you sure it's calibrated right?
Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.
Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?
[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]
How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment
and set of experiences as a chimp, do you think we
could observe their ability to do calculus or Sudoku?

Irrelevant.

I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

The question that matters is what would happen if a chimps
was raised in a human family.

Most likely the chimp would get screwed up - much like
any individual ripped from its natural parents and
adopted by members of a different species would be.

Note that ability at calculus and Sudoku doesn't seem to
have much to do with what it says on:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=consciousness
--

Consciousness = mind = what the brain does when it is running.

Ability at calculus and Sudoku puzzles is an observable. It's what the
human brain does, or can do. Chimps can't, so they have less
consciousness.

--dkomo@cris.com

Tim Tyler

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:11 am

Guest

dkomo wrote:

Quote:

Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:51 am, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:
On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of
magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.
You have access to a consciousnessometer?
Are you sure it's calibrated right?
Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.
Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?
[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]
How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment
and set of experiences as a chimp, do you think we
could observe their ability to do calculus or Sudoku?

Irrelevant.

I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

The question that matters is what would happen if a chimps
was raised in a human family.

Most likely the chimp would get screwed up - much like
any individual ripped from its natural parents and
adopted by members of a different species would be.

Note that ability at calculus and Sudoku doesn't seem to
have much to do with what it says on:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=consciousness

Consciousness = mind = what the brain does when it is running.

Ability at calculus and Sudoku puzzles is an observable. It's what the
human brain does, or can do. Chimps can't, so they have less
consciousness.

I'm inclined to agree that chimps have 'less consciousness'
than humans - though I would not work from our ability at Sudoku.

However: 'orders of magnitude' less? What does that even mean?
--
__________
|im |yler http://timtyler.org/ tim@tt1lock.org Remove lock to reply.

pete

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2007 11:11 am

Guest

on Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:49:11 -0500 (EST), dkomo <dkomo871@comcast.net> sez:

Quote:

Tim Tyler wrote:

claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:51 am, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:
On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of
magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.
You have access to a consciousnessometer?
Are you sure it's calibrated right?
Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.
Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?
[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]
How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment
and set of experiences as a chimp, do you think we
could observe their ability to do calculus or Sudoku?

Irrelevant.

I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

The question that matters is what would happen if a chimps
was raised in a human family.

Most likely the chimp would get screwed up - much like
any individual ripped from its natural parents and
adopted by members of a different species would be.

Note that ability at calculus and Sudoku doesn't seem to
have much to do with what it says on:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=consciousness
--

Consciousness = mind = what the brain does when it is running.

Ability at calculus and Sudoku puzzles is an observable. It's what the
human brain does, or can do. Chimps can't, so they have less
consciousness.

What, are you another McGinn sock puppet?

Consciousness is not thinking, consciousness is not doing,
consciousness is not understanding the world. Consciousness
is being a subjective observer of experience. Period.
Now, we can talk about the various degrees of all those
other things, no problem. Just don't call them consciousness.

--
==========================================================================
vincent@triumf[munge].ca Pete Vincent
Disclaimer: all I know I learned from reading Usenet.

dkomo

Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 12:21 pm

Guest

pete wrote:

Quote:

on Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:49:11 -0500 (EST), dkomo <dkomo871@comcast.net> sez:

Tim Tyler wrote:

claudiusdenk@sbcglobal.net wrote:
On Feb 6, 10:51 am, Guy A Hoelzer <hoel...@unr.edu> wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote on 2/4/07 12:19 PM:
On Feb 3, 12:00 am, dkomo <dkomo...@comcast.net> wrote:
Tim Tyler wrote:
claudiusd...@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Sure. To some degree. But human consciousness is orders of
magnitude
higher than that of any other species, most notably our closest
relatives, chimps.
You have access to a consciousnessometer?
Are you sure it's calibrated right?
Humans seem to be extremely similar to chimps in this
respect - as far as I can see.
Really? Can chimps work calculus problems too? And Sudoku puzzles?
[moderator's note: How would we know? -HAG]
How is it not obvious?

If you raised a human with the exact same environment
and set of experiences as a chimp, do you think we
could observe their ability to do calculus or Sudoku?

Irrelevant.

I think the answer to the question above is not so obvious.

The question that matters is what would happen if a chimps
was raised in a human family.

Most likely the chimp would get screwed up - much like
any individual ripped from its natural parents and
adopted by members of a different species would be.

Note that ability at calculus and Sudoku doesn't seem to
have much to do with what it says on:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=consciousness
--

Consciousness = mind = what the brain does when it is running.

Ability at calculus and Sudoku puzzles is an observable. It's what the
human brain does, or can do. Chimps can't, so they have less
consciousness.

What, are you another McGinn sock puppet?

Who?

Quote:

Consciousness is not thinking, consciousness is not doing,
consciousness is not understanding the world. Consciousness
is being a subjective observer of experience. Period.
Now, we can talk about the various degrees of all those
other things, no problem. Just don't call them consciousness.

This is your own definition. I would call what you are describing above
"awareness", and it is an aspect of consciousness. Definitions of
consciousness are like assholes -- everybody has one (of his own).

I'm trying to be comprehensive with my definition of consciousness. I
see it as everything that a brain produces, including behavior. It is
present in various degrees throughout the animal world. Because it
involves behavior and performance, it is objectively observable.

It is a process, not a thing. Included within consciousness are
subprocesses such as intelligence, awareness, perception, and language.
Specifically, ability at calculus and Sudoku puzzles involves
cognitive intelligence, but this is nonetheless included in my
definition of consciousness.

--dkomo@cris.com

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